Certified Legendary Thread Cam Rayner

[danster168]

Bayley Fritsch?

haha. Pretty sure 6 in a granny is fairly clutch lol.

 

[danster168]

Junction- honestly this is not worth your time, he just continually twists things after getting owned by anyone who decides to ‘converse’ with him. Got kicked off his own board he is that moronic. The old don’t argue with an idiot because they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience is perfect for this bloke. Some of his type are slightly amusing- Floggster is not.

twists things? I correctly predict Rayners stats in the pre-season year in year out. How can I twist things when I put my neck on the line 6 months before each season...


Like, be specific in your replies. What opinion do you actually disagree with? The order he was taken in my rankings list? His GF performance? or that you think he isn't a down-hill skier?

The reality is most neutrals like somewhere in the middle between my opinion on Rayner, and Brisbane fan's opinions of Rayner. Rayner has been a laughing stock for most of his career. Now he is just a neutral.

 

[Junction Lion]

haha. Pretty sure 6 in a granny is fairly clutch lol.

This is all you ever bring up? Boring and easiest goals ever. You would have kicked 4 that day.

Please answer.

1. Cam's prelim performance. (Was rated as a great game apart from one BigFooty member)
2. Lion's chances if Cam is our 17th best
3. Melbourne's chances if Bayley is in their top 4 best players.
4. The disparity in possessions, contested possessions and marks between our 17th best and your man.
5. What Cam adds to the team game plan and culture versus Bayley, Trac and Clarry.
6. Why did they kick you off the Melbourne forum?

I don't think you will answer as you choose your own narrative.

As I said to jonno I am getting dumber by the minute.

 

[danster168]

This is all you ever bring up? Boring and easiest goals ever. You would have kicked 4 that day.

Please answer.

1. Cam's prelim performance. (Was rated as a great game apart from one BigFooty member)
2. Lion's chances if Cam is our 17th best
3. Melbourne's chances if Bayley is in their top 4 best players.
4. The disparity in possessions, contested possessions and marks between our 17th best and your man.
5. What Cam adds to the team game plan and culture versus Bayley, Trac and Clarry.
6. Why did they kick you off the Melbourne forum?

I don't think you will answer as you choose your own narrative.

As I said to jonno I am getting dumber by the minute.

It's not about the difficulty of the goals. It's about getting off your opponent and converting.

1. Cam's prelim performance was really good. All I said was that he owed the lions that goal after his game against GWS.

2. Lions chances if Cam is your 17th best, in my honest opinion, is about the same. Because he isn't a top 10 player in your 22. He is 14-16th best in your 22. That's my genuine honest opinion. So him being 17th best makes no difference as that's close to his spot in the team anyway. For reference, I have: Daniher, lohmann, Dunkley, Mcluggage, Berry, Ashcroft, Neale, Zorko, a fit Coleman, Cameron, Andrews, Bailey, Starcevich and McInerney ahead of him. Sure, we could argue over a couple but I also put Wilmot and Doedee in the conversation to be ahead so we can safely put Rayner at 15th in your 22.

3. Melbourne's chances if Bayley is in the top 4? Usually, very good. Because if Fritsch is in the best, it means he's kicked a bag usually.

4. I don't know who our 17th best player is. You tell me, and we'll compare.

5. Cam is a half forward because he hasn't mastered the midfield and he hasn't mastered the forward line, hence he rarely kicks goals and rarely finds the footy. (his goal tally and possession tally show this). Fritsch has mastered the fwd line, and Petracca and Oliver have mastered the midfield. The role that Cam plays is to give the likes of Neale and Dunkley a 5 min chop out. This isn't a role that I value highly. If Rayner was a pressure forward, then I would say fair enough. But Rayner isn't a pressure forward either. I still have no idea what his role is. All I know is that he was trialled as a defender to find him some easy footy and that failed. They then trialled him as a mid and that failed and then as a permanent forward and that failed. He now seems best suited as a half forward who gets 13-15 touches and 1 goal a game.

6. Because I had really strong opinions on bringing Grundy to the club. And when it failed a season later, I made it a point to keep those people accountable.

You can say things like 'you're getting dumber by the minute' but the reality is, deep down, there's nothing to disagree with. The numbers back me up. And the eye test backs me up. And no-one was brave enough to predict Rayners stats in the off-season like I was. And no-one was brave enough to put in their own ranking list because they know if they had him in the top 20 it would look silly.

Now your turn:

Based on total output from day of 2017 draft, where do you rank Rayner in terms of performance produced?

Also, where do you rank Rayner in your best 22?

Do you ever think Rayner will be more than a 14-16 touch, 1 goal a game player?

 

[jonnobackpocket]

twists things? I correctly predict Rayners stats in the pre-season year in year out. How can I twist things when I put my neck on the line 6 months before each season...


Like, be specific in your replies. What opinion do you actually disagree with? The order he was taken in my rankings list? His GF performance? or that you think he isn't a down-hill skier?

The reality is most neutrals like somewhere in the middle between my opinion on Rayner, and Brisbane fan's opinions of Rayner. Rayner has been a laughing stock for most of his career. Now he is just a neutral.

I disagree with everything you say, you have no clue. When you get proven wrong you just write some pathetic shit like ‘I have addressed that’, Rayner does things that Fritch could never even dream of. If we gave Cam Barely Average’s role of ‘hey can you be soft **** who doesn’t go near anyone and just chip scab goals from the square’ pretty sure he could do it. Let’s ask Barely to take hangers and kick clutch goals before going inside and being a contested beast who runs through 3 players like they are under 12’s and dishing off the handball. If we really want to test Barely let’s ask him just be a likeable bloke who his team mates love. Instead of hanging shit on an AA squad, premiership, highlight reel player, maybe worry about your own coke snorting, pokie playing ‘star’ players of which you have 3 and 2 of which want to get out because it’s a broken shit hole who’s ‘leader’ has just been sacked. Oh that’s right no one over there will talk to you because they sick of your crap. If you need any more proof just think about the fact you rated Spargo above Rayner and actually wrote you ‘kept Rayner relevant’, have a think about that.

 

[danster168]

I disagree with everything you say, you have no clue. When you get proven wrong you just write some pathetic shit like ‘I have addressed that’, Rayner does things that Fritch could never even dream of. If we gave Cam Barely Average’s role of ‘hey can you be soft **** who doesn’t go near anyone and just chip scab goals from the square’ pretty sure he could do it. Let’s ask Barely to take hangers and kick clutch goals before going inside and being a contested beast who runs through 3 players like they are under 12’s and dishing off the handball. If we really want to test Barely let’s ask him just be a likeable bloke who his team mates love. Instead of hanging shit on an AA squad, premiership, highlight reel player, maybe worry about your own coke snorting, pokie playing ‘star’ players of which you have 3 and 2 of which want to get out because it’s a broken shit hole who’s ‘leader’ has just been sacked. Oh that’s right no one over there will talk to you because they sick of your crap. If you need any more proof just think about the fact you rated Spargo above Rayner and actually wrote you ‘kept Rayner relevant’, have a think about that.

haha, imagine thinking Rayner has had a better career than Fritsch. The fact that you're comparing Rayner to Fritsch just shows how deluded your opinions are.

Fritsch is a 2 time AA squad member you goose. And unlike Rayner, has been a consistent performer for years. And also gets the best defenders.



Rayner simply doesn't have this in his kit bag.



How's this highlight of Fritsch doing exactly what Rayner did in the prelim. Fritsch does this stuff weekly. lol

ANd what are you talking about marks for? Fritch has far more marking highlights than Rayner. Fritsch can jump. You clearly haven't done your research. I'm done with this. You're so far beneath the level of analysis I require in a footy chat. I prefer Elixuh

 

[Junction Lion]

It's not about the difficulty of the goals. It's about getting off your opponent and converting.

1. Cam's prelim performance was really good. All I said was that he owed the lions that goal after his game against GWS.

2. Lions chances if Cam is your 17th best, in my honest opinion, is about the same. Because he isn't a top 10 player in your 22. He is 14-16th best in your 22. That's my genuine honest opinion. So him being 17th best makes no difference as that's close to his spot in the team anyway. For reference, I have: Daniher, lohmann, Dunkley, Mcluggage, Berry, Ashcroft, Neale, Zorko, a fit Coleman, Cameron, Andrews, Bailey, Starcevich and McInerney ahead of him. Sure, we could argue over a couple but I also put Wilmot and Doedee in the conversation to be ahead so we can safely put Rayner at 15th in your 22.

3. Melbourne's chances if Bayley is in the top 4? Usually, very good. Because if Fritsch is in the best, it means he's kicked a bag usually.

4. I don't know who our 17th best player is. You tell me, and we'll compare.

5. Cam is a half forward because he hasn't mastered the midfield and he hasn't mastered the forward line, hence he rarely kicks goals and rarely finds the footy. (his goal tally and possession tally show this). Fritsch has mastered the fwd line, and Petracca and Oliver have mastered the midfield. The role that Cam plays is to give the likes of Neale and Dunkley a 5 min chop out. This isn't a role that I value highly. If Rayner was a pressure forward, then I would say fair enough. But Rayner isn't a pressure forward either. I still have no idea what his role is. All I know is that he was trialled as a defender to find him some easy footy and that failed. They then trialled him as a mid and that failed and then as a permanent forward and that failed. He now seems best suited as a half forward who gets 13-15 touches and 1 goal a game.

6. Because I had really strong opinions on bringing Grundy to the club. And when it failed a season later, I made it a point to keep those people accountable.

You can say things like 'you're getting dumber by the minute' but the reality is, deep down, there's nothing to disagree with. The numbers back me up. And the eye test backs me up. And no-one was brave enough to predict Rayners stats in the off-season like I was. And no-one was brave enough to put in their own ranking list because they know if they had him in the top 20 it would look silly.

Now your turn:

Based on total output from day of 2017 draft, where do you rank Rayner in terms of performance produced?

Also, where do you rank Rayner in your best 22?

Do you ever think Rayner will be more than a 14-16 touch, 1 goal a game player?

Thanks for the comprehensive response Danster. I will have a crack at dealing with your replies.

1. I agree with you however the PF and Carlton EF confirms he is not a downhill skier.
2. Cam easy top 10 in most sides including yours (AA squad) however we have the luxury of a great list.
3. Fritsch has to be in your best as he is about your only serious goalkicker.
4. Hard to pick. After your top 6-7 it goes downhill pretty quickly with skills and attitude so player 7-23 is anyone's guess.
5. Convoluted response from you however Cam does a heap of team things and is great for culture as well as being a ripper player. The players and the club love him (6 year deal!). Melbourne desperately need to fix their locker room culture and would love to have some guys like him around. You need to stop looking at individual stuff and delve more into the team fabric, brand and culture side of things.
6. No good for you. I didn't realise your guys were so sensitive.

Now your questions.

If I was doing a 2017 draft now I would look at who has produced recently and who is likely to have the greatest impact going forward. I would definitely have Rayner top 10 (2024 AA squad) and higher than Fritsch. I lot of my opinion is on contested possessions and hard ball gets in which he is far superior to Fritsch. Just for our team make up as we have so many guys that can kick goals. So Rayner is a great fit for us. You seem to be happy with Fritsch so each to their own.

Rayner definitely in our best 22. Game changer, high impact player, great team player, premiership player. Highly rated at the club. Would be in every teams best 22.

I work in a bit more detail than just pure touches. Check the off the ball stuff, the subtle bumps, taps, tackles, shepherds. Also check the team cohesion and his connection with team mates. Footy is bigger than just raw possessions even though Cam averages more than your man.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

haha, imagine thinking Rayner has had a better career than Fritsch. The fact that you're comparing Rayner to Fritsch just shows how deluded your opinions are.

Fritsch is a 2 time AA squad member you goose. And unlike Rayner, has been a consistent performer for years. And also gets the best defenders.



Rayner simply doesn't have this in his kit bag.



How's this highlight of Fritsch doing exactly what Rayner did in the prelim. Fritsch does this stuff weekly. lol

ANd what are you talking about marks for? Fritch has far more marking highlights than Rayner. Fritsch can jump. You clearly haven't done your research. I'm done with this. You're so far beneath the level of analysis I require in a footy chat. I prefer Elixuh

Your clubs a joke, your a joke and with all this talk of firing blanks earlier the only thing I wish is your father had fired a blank- that’s assuming you weren’t grown in a test tube somewhere. You’re right we are done Floggster- I prefer anyone.

 

[Junction Lion]

haha, imagine thinking Rayner has had a better career than Fritsch. The fact that you're comparing Rayner to Fritsch just shows how deluded your opinions are.

Fritsch is a 2 time AA squad member you goose. And unlike Rayner, has been a consistent performer for years. And also gets the best defenders.



Rayner simply doesn't have this in his kit bag.



How's this highlight of Fritsch doing exactly what Rayner did in the prelim. Fritsch does this stuff weekly. lol

ANd what are you talking about marks for? Fritch has far more marking highlights than Rayner. Fritsch can jump. You clearly haven't done your research. I'm done with this. You're so far beneath the level of analysis I require in a footy chat. I prefer Elixuh

Just watched these. Fairly underwhelming if that is all you have got. Cam had 21 highlights in 4 x 7 minute reels during the finals series and you give me Bayley vs Port Adelaide?

 

[danster168]

Thanks for the comprehensive response Danster. I will have a crack at dealing with your replies.

1. I agree with you however the PF and Carlton EF confirms he is not a downhill skier.
2. Cam easy top 10 in most sides including yours (AA squad) however we have the luxury of a great list.
3. Fritsch has to be in your best as he is about your only serious goalkicker.
4. Hard to pick. After your top 6-7 it goes downhill pretty quickly with skills and attitude so player 7-23 is anyone's guess.
5. Convoluted response from you however Cam does a heap of team things and is great for culture as well as being a ripper player. The players and the club love him (6 year deal!). Melbourne desperately need to fix their locker room culture and would love to have some guys like him around. You need to stop looking at individual stuff and delve more into the team fabric, brand and culture side of things.
6. No good for you. I didn't realise your guys were so sensitive.

Now your questions.

If I was doing a 2017 draft now I would look at who has produced recently and who is likely to have the greatest impact going forward. I would definitely have Rayner top 10 (2024 AA squad) and higher than Fritsch. I lot of my opinion is on contested possessions and hard ball gets in which he is far superior to Fritsch. Just for our team make up as we have so many guys that can kick goals. So Rayner is a great fit for us. You seem to be happy with Fritsch so each to their own.

Rayner definitely in our best 22. Game changer, high impact player, great team player, premiership player. Highly rated at the club. Would be in every teams best 22.

I work in a bit more detail than just pure touches. Check the off the ball stuff, the subtle bumps, taps, tackles, shepherds. Also check the team cohesion and his connection with team mates. Footy is bigger than just raw possessions even though Cam averages more than your man.

Appreciate the detailed reply without swearing your replies at me.

Regarding your rankings this. I'm talking about how much they have produced thus far in their careers. Not projecting forward. because Rayner has been barely AFL standard (in my eyes of course) for the majority of his career, until this year. Even Brisbane fans wanted him dropped multiple times over his career. Even this year.

Yes, footy is bigger than raw possessions but if he isn't getting the ball much and he isn't applying defensive pressure then you're definitely placing a huge value on things like bumping, tapping the ball forward etc which is an immeasurable stat.

And I guess I ask you, why can't he do these '1%ers' but also kick 50 goals a year. He's playing usually on the least credentialed defender so he should be kicking 45+. Or if he is playing high up in the midfield, he should be getting 20 touches+ per game.

I personally value consistency within a game and within a season. Rayner usually plays to the standard about once every 5-6 weeks.

like what's the difference between Rayner being an inconsistent flashy player because that's his role or because he's not good enough to be consistent? I firmly believe the latter.

 

[danster168]

Just watched these. Fairly underwhelming if that is all you have got. Cam had 21 highlights in 4 x 7 minute reels during the finals series and you give me Bayley vs Port Adelaide?

happy to go 1 for 1. Fritsch has got more highlights over his career.

 

[Junction Lion]

happy to go 1 for 1. Fritsch has got more highlights over his career.

Agree. Forward finisher will always appear in highlights. I love a Josh Dunkley but hardly saw him in any highlights.

 

[danster168]

True Footy is one of the better footy channels out there. 11 months ago he agreed with me. I don't think after 1 season that too much is changing.

 

[mighty_lions]

True Footy is one of the better footy channels out there. 11 months ago he agreed with me. I don't think after 1 season that too much is changing.

I think you are him, Noah Balta is garbage

 

[danster168]

I think you are him, Noah Balta is garbage

Balta is one of the best up and coming key position players. He'd warrant a lot of money on the open market

 

[p4p1]

haha, imagine thinking Rayner has had a better career than Fritsch. The fact that you're comparing Rayner to Fritsch just shows how deluded your opinions are.

Fritsch is a 2 time AA squad member you goose. And unlike Rayner, has been a consistent performer for years. And also gets the best defenders.



Rayner simply doesn't have this in his kit bag.



How's this highlight of Fritsch doing exactly what Rayner did in the prelim. Fritsch does this stuff weekly. lol

ANd what are you talking about marks for? Fritch has far more marking highlights than Rayner. Fritsch can jump. You clearly haven't done your research. I'm done with this. You're so far beneath the level of analysis I require in a footy chat. I prefer Elixuh

Fritsch doesn’t get the best defenders. He doesn’t get the key defenders, Pickett gets the best small defender. Fritsch’s goal numbers might be good but he doesn’t hurt you like a real elite forward does. He doesn’t take contested marks and a heap of his goals are out the back when everyone else has done the hard work.

 

[mighty_lions]

Balta is one of the best up and coming key position players. He'd warrant a lot of money on the open market

like Rayner and his 7 year deal? and no balta is garbage

 

[danster168]

like Rayner and his 7 year deal? and no balta is garbage

I got no idea what Rayner is on. Can't imagine it'd be that much. Brisbane just had the space after Daniher retired so signed him up long term. It's a bad deal for Brisbane to sign up such an inconsistent player for so long. He's played 1 decent afl season in 6 years...

 

[danster168]

Fritsch doesn’t get the best defenders. He doesn’t get the key defenders, Pickett gets the best small defender. Fritsch’s goal numbers might be good but he doesn’t hurt you like a real elite forward does. He doesn’t take contested marks and a heap of his goals are out the back when everyone else has done the hard work.

He doesn't take contested marks I agree. He's too quick for key defenders, and too good aerially for small defenders. A killer match up.

 

[mighty_lions]

He doesn't take contested marks I agree. He's too quick for key defenders, and too good aerially for small defenders. A killer match up.

2 years away from being delisted bookmark it

 

[danster168]

2 years away from being delisted bookmark it

that's why I wouldn't have given Rayner a 6 year deal. Hell during the year even your own fans wanted Rayner out of the team.

 

[Junction Lion]

haha, imagine thinking Rayner has had a better career than Fritsch. The fact that you're comparing Rayner to Fritsch just shows how deluded your opinions are.

Fritsch is a 2 time AA squad member you goose. And unlike Rayner, has been a consistent performer for years. And also gets the best defenders.



Rayner simply doesn't have this in his kit bag.



How's this highlight of Fritsch doing exactly what Rayner did in the prelim. Fritsch does this stuff weekly. lol

ANd what are you talking about marks for? Fritch has far more marking highlights than Rayner. Fritsch can jump. You clearly haven't done your research. I'm done with this. You're so far beneath the level of analysis I require in a footy chat. I prefer Elixuh

I don't see anything terribly wrong comparing these two guys if we are looking at where their form and output is using the most recent year as an indicator which is the sensible thing to do and taking a forward view.

 

[danster168]

I don't see anything terribly wrong comparing these two guys if we are looking at where their form and output is using the most recent year as an indicator which is the sensible thing to do and taking a forward view.

View attachment 2155862

haha, if using their most recent as an indicator. LOL. I guess Jacob Hopper has had a better career than Clayton Oliver then
So we just ignore Rayner's 5 years of irrelevancy from 2017-2023? Rayner hasn't had half the career of Fritsch. Fritsch has been elite from day 1. Rayner's level of output is significantly less than a guy like Worpel who has been producing afl standard football from his first season. Rayner produced about the same level of output as Spargo, until this year.

 

[Junction Lion]

haha, if using their most recent as an indicator. LOL. I guess Jacob Hopper has had a better career than Clayton Oliver then
So we just ignore Rayner's 5 years of irrelevancy from 2017-2023? Rayner hasn't had half the career of Fritsch. Fritsch has been elite from day 1. Rayner's level of output is significantly less than a guy like Worpel who has been producing afl standard football from his first season. Rayner produced about the same level of output as Spargo, until this year.

We are looking at two different things. I am highlighting where they are at now (this year) and also looking forward to seeing what Cam can do considering the trajectory he is on. I am more than happy where the Lions and Rayner are at.

 

[danster168]

We are looking at two different things. I am highlighting where they are at now (this year) and also looking forward to seeing what Cam can do considering the trajectory he is on. I am more than happy where the Lions and Rayner are at.

Yeah, well I wouldn't even disagree with you. It wouldn't surprise me if Rayner had a better 3-5 years than Fritsch now. Fritsch had a poor year, off the back of a poor year by the club, but 41 goals is still elite. But little to no chance that Rayner's career will be able to surpass many of the players in the 2017 because he was useless for 6 years, injury or form or both.

Rayner next season needs to improve on his output. If he's in this juicy role he needs to be scoring 40 goals+. With Daniher retiring, the quality of defender goes up by one. That said I think Lohmann warrants the better defender now so who knows.