Can Chris Dawes keep it up?

[Dundalis]

I think he can keep it up and improve substantially. Think Paddy Ryder (same age) only with more presence and upside.

What a terrible comparison.

Ryder is far, far more athletic, while lacking the build and strength of Dawes. Ryder is in the mould of a Buddy Franklin with the ability to play ruck, while Dawes is more Ant Rocca.

 

[mdc]

What a terrible comparison.

Ryder is far, far more athletic, while lacking the build and strength of Dawes. Ryder is in the mould of a Buddy Franklin with the ability to play ruck, while Dawes is more Ant Rocca.

That one's nearly as bad. He might look a bit like Rocca size-wise, but plays nothing like him. His greatest strengths are his endurance and his phenomenal ability at ground level.

The best comparison I can come up with is a young Jonathan Brown, who was also a terrific endurance runner and great below his knees. Dawes isn't the power athlete Brown was, nor does he have his great marking power but in terms of style that's the closest.

 

[smiddaz123]

Dawes' overhead marking is still poor imo, his ability to actually contest in the air is what's improved markedly. He'll at least create a chance at ground level. He still struggles to take the one grab marks overhead.

 

[Quicky]

Dawes' overhead marking is still poor imo, his ability to actually contest in the air is what's improved markedly. He'll at least create a chance at ground level. He still struggles to take the one grab marks overhead.

Disagree with the first part, agree with the second. He is definitely taking more overhead marks now. True contested marks under alot of pressure. But you are absolutely spot on that he is now creating ground level opportunities. It used to be that he would let the ball get out the back and offer an easy rebound for the opposition. It was in fact a big problem as last year we were getting heavily scored against from these Dawes turnovers. Now more often than not he is bringing the ball down front and centre and creating scoring opportunities for our smalls. Really he has improved on both accounts IMO. Which is a very exciting thing for this team, and scary for the opposition.

 

[DWil6]

What a terrible comparison.

Ryder is far, far more athletic, while lacking the build and strength of Dawes. Ryder is in the mould of a Buddy Franklin with the ability to play ruck, while Dawes is more Ant Rocca.

Disagree with the Rocca comparison entirely. I was being tongue in cheek regarding Ryder a it was a post by a bombers supporter... Dawes is much more creative than Rocca. He sets up so many goals through swift handballs or by knocking the ball to another player. Truth be told, the way he uses the tap, he'd probably be a better ruckman than Ryder.

 

[DWil6]

That one's nearly as bad. He might look a bit like Rocca size-wise, but plays nothing like him. His greatest strengths are his endurance and his phenomenal ability at ground level.

The best comparison I can come up with is a young Jonathan Brown, who was also a terrific endurance runner and great below his knees. Dawes isn't the power athlete Brown was, nor does he have his great marking power but in terms of style that's the closest.

Agree with this part 100%. Throw in his deft tap work and ability to hand pass to advantage when under pressure and that is Chris Dawes. Also very reliable with set shots on goal.

 

[smiddaz123]

Disagree with the first part, agree with the second. He is definitely taking more overhead marks now. True contested marks under alot of pressure. But you are absolutely spot on that he is now creating ground level opportunities. It used to be that he would let the ball get out the back and offer an easy rebound for the opposition. It was in fact a big problem as last year we were getting heavily scored against from these Dawes turnovers. Now more often than not he is bringing the ball down front and centre and creating scoring opportunities for our smalls. Really he has improved on both accounts IMO. Which is a very exciting thing for this team, and scary for the opposition.

I didn't say his overhead marking hasn't improved, it definitely has. It's still below average for a KP forward though, he's still a bit of a two grab player. As an overall player he has improved leaps and bounds, I'd consider overhead marking his only real weakness now.

As for comparisons I really can't think of a good one in terms of style. He really is a different kind of player.

 

[mdc]

Agree with this part 100%. Throw in his deft tap work and ability to hand pass to advantage when under pressure and that is Chris Dawes. Also very reliable with set shots on goal.

Yeah, this needs highlighting as well.

I think people in general are badly underrating just how brilliant he's been these first two rounds. Averaging 23 possessions, 3 goals, and as you mention he almost always puts the ball to advantage either by handball (16 of these on the weekend!) or tap (which don't even count as possessions).

I don't think we've had a key forward play back-to-back games as good for many years. Rocca must have done during 2002 or 2003, but he wasn't exactly a model of consistency, so it's no sure thing.

 

[kevind]

I didn't say his overhead marking hasn't improved, it definitely has. It's still below average for a KP forward though, he's still a bit of a two grab player. As an overall player he has improved leaps and bounds, I'd consider overhead marking his only real weakness now.

As for comparisons I really can't think of a good one in terms of style. He really is a different kind of player.

I agree to a degree with most of your post(and with most of your posts in general), but I would like to ask. Which player in the AFL consistently takes contested marks up forward? I can't think of hardly any. It's almost like it has become a skill of a bygone era, even with the massive penalties and spotlight on infringing defenders these days.

I would love Dawes to take more contested marks but at the same time , I can't think of many players, particulalry young KFs outside of Riewoldt at Richmond or Hurley at Essendon, who are better than Dawes in this area atm. Remembering also that Dawes took about 12 marks in the WB final last year,the best of any player that day.

It is a blessing that he is not dependent on this skill either. Those that are usually become very low possesion players.

As I said , would love to see him improve this area of his game further, but grateful atm for his ability below his knees, his assists, his mobility, all the second and third efforts,the 1%ers. In these areas, he leaves most KFs for dead.

I don't see him kicking bags of goals because he plays a lot up the ground as well as from the square, we don't put all our eggs in one basket when it comes to kicking goals and for the fact that he is so willing to give the ball off to players in a better position.

Loved to be proved wrong on Friday when he boots 10 against the Blues!!

 

[smiddaz123]

I agree to a degree with most of your post(and with most of your posts in general), but I would like to ask. Which player in the AFL consistently takes contested marks up forward? I can't think of hardly any. It's almost like it has become a skill of a bygone era, even with the massive penalties and spotlight on infringing defenders these days.

I would love Dawes to take more contested marks but at the same time , I can't think of many players, particulalry young KFs outside of Riewoldt at Richmond or Hurley at Essendon, who are better than Dawes in this area atm. Remembering also that Dawes took about 12 marks in the WB final last year,the best of any player that day.

It is a blessing that he is not dependent on this skill either. Those that are usually become very low possesion players.

As I said , would love to see him improve this area of his game further, but grateful atm for his ability below his knees, his assists, his mobility, all the second and third efforts,the 1%ers. In these areas, he leaves most KFs for dead.

I don't see him kicking bags of goals because he plays a lot up the ground as well as from the square, we don't put all our eggs in one basket when it comes to kicking goals and for the fact that he is so willing to give the ball off to players in a better position.

Loved to be proved wrong on Friday when he boots 10 against the Blues!!

Well for one, Cloke is astronomically better in this area. Hansen, Gumbleton, even Reid down back are much better above their head than Dawes imo. All of those guys have the ability to make the mark stick when they get their hands to it. When Dawes gets his hands to it, it's either a spillage, or a two/three grab mark.

He's definitely improved a heap in this area, last year at times it honestly looked like he was trying to spike a volleyball when he went to mark the footy, but I'd still consider it below average for a KP forward. But as you said, it's becoming less of a necessity. He more than makes up for it with his athleticism, work at ground level and general smarts.

Another point that I don't think has been raised is that he seems more willing to get his hands out in front and take it early when he's on the lead. Last year from memory he'd try to take it on his chest too often and let the defender get a fist in.

He's clearly a gun footballer though, I'm not trying to argue against that whatsoever.

 

[kevind]

Well for one, Cloke is astronomically better in this area. Hansen, Gumbleton, even Reid down back are much better above their head than Dawes imo.

All those players LOOK like better contested marks as their technique is better , but aside from Cloke, I don't think they would actually take more marks than Dawes. Hansen looks excellent overhead, but he rarely takes many marks up forward, the same with Gumbleton.

The Reid comparison is a little unfair as taking marks in the backline is usually far easier.

I agree that Dawes appears average or below average in this area of the game, but looking at the stats he produces often makes me wonder if we are not overstating the problem a touch.

 

[longdaveyjetta]

It's a question only his missus can answer, but I doubt she would tell the truth if he couldn't.
But he is a good player, reminds me a little of the type of game Roger Merrett used to play, without that much mongrel though, good player, I rate him.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

I don't think we've had a key forward play back-to-back games as good for many years. Rocca must have done during 2002 or 2003, but he wasn't exactly a model of consistency, so it's no sure thing.

Chris Dawes' last two games:

Avg. 23 disposals, 6.5 marks, 4 tackles, 3 goals

Travis Cloke:

Rd 15 & 16, 2007: Avg. 17 disposals, 10.5 marks, 3 tackles, 3.5 goals

SF & PF, 2007: Avg. 18 disposals, 11.5 marks, 2 tackles, 2 goals

Rd 17 & 18, 2009: Avg. 22 disposals, 9.5 marks, 6 tackles, 0.5 goals

Chris Tarrant:

Rd 22 & EF, 2006: Avg. 17.5 disposals, 10 marks, 1.5 tackles, 3 goals

Rd 2 & 3, 2006: Avg. 18.5 disposals, 11.5 marks, 3.5 tackles, 3.5 goals

There have been examples...

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Agree with this part 100%. Throw in his deft tap work and ability to hand pass to advantage when under pressure and that is Chris Dawes. Also very reliable with set shots on goal.

Ahem. Grand Final v1.0

 

[mdc]

There have been examples...

I don't remember those pairs of games by the round number, but on those crude stats none of them measure up.

 

[Old Spice]

Like Dicky, his tap work is just great and very smart. Noticed this year a lot more of our players tapping onto advantage if they don't have time to take clean possession then dispose. Dawes in GF II was the past master.

 

[smiddaz123]

All those players LOOK like better contested marks as their technique is better , but aside from Cloke, I don't think they would actually take more marks than Dawes. Hansen looks excellent overhead, but he rarely takes many marks up forward, the same with Gumbleton.

I'd suggest Dawes wouldn't be taking any more than they would at either the Roos or Essendon though. I'm not really talking about sheer number of marks, but the ability to mark. As I said, Dawes is a fantastic player, and imo a better footballer than all the players we're discussing. They're all better marks than he is though.

The Reid comparison is a little unfair as taking marks in the backline is usually far easier.

It is, but he's taken some ripping pack marks before, even on the wing. Once the ball is in his hands, it sticks. Reid is a genuine one grab mark, even in contested situations.

I agree that Dawes appears average or below average in this area of the game, but looking at the stats he produces often makes me wonder if we are not overstating the problem a touch.

He's taken contested marks on his chest, or juggled them, which would count to the stats. I don't think anyone exaggerates his actual weakness, but maybe how much of a hindrance it is.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

I don't remember those pairs of games by the round number, but on those crude stats none of them measure up.

Except for taking significantly more marks in every case.

You don't need the round number to know that Cloke's 18 disposals, 11.5 marks, 2 tackles and 2 goals in two games in two finals definitely carry more weight than Dawes' opening two games against bottom feeders.

 

[mdc]

Except for taking significantly more marks in every case.

Marks are more or less the most worthless stat in the history of any sport. If you had contested marks it might be interesting, but otherwise it makes no difference how they got the ball (mark or not), just that they got it.

You don't need the round number to know that Cloke's 18 disposals, 11.5 marks, 2 tackles and 2 goals in two games in two finals definitely carry more weight than Dawes' opening two games against bottom feeders.

Probably. Has nothing to do with my claim though. I'm talking about best back-to-back performance, not the one most important to winning a premiership.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Marks are more or less the most worthless stat in the history of any sport. If you had contested marks it might be interesting, but otherwise it makes no difference how they got the ball (mark or not), just that they got it.

Anything that contradicts a point that you're trying to make instantly becomes worthless, mdc.

I could say exactly the same thing about disposals, which is the only thing that sets Dawes' first two games apart from those I listed from Tarrant and Cloke.

Cloke almost certainly took more contested marks than Dawes given his greater skill at doing so and higher marking numbers, but there's no available contested marking stats for the time period we're talking about.

Probably. Has nothing to do with my claim though. I'm talking about best back-to-back performance, not the one most important to winning a premiership.

It depends how you define "best".

A performance of comparable statistical calibre, and of more value and importance, against better opposition is certainly significantly "better" in my view, which would make it the "best" back-to-back performance.

 

[TownleyTime]

He has the body & sense of belonging in the AFL now. I've seen him play since his APS days, he had an elite rowing background (won a Nationals SB title) & BB background. I've never really considered him a traditional KPF, he is very creative & protects space well in preference of contested marking. Now through his increased frame, that part of the game is coming to the fore. He is also a great organizer, he formed a lethal partnership with TJ as a junior & he complements Travisty well.

If he continues the curve he is on, his influence on the team will be greater than any individual.

 

[mdc]

Anything that contradicts a point that you're trying to make instantly becomes worthless, mdc.

I could say exactly the same thing about disposals, which is the only thing that sets Dawes' first two games apart from those I listed from Tarrant and Cloke.

Oh, please. At least I don't resort to emoticons. D) In any case, yes you could same a similar thing about disposals (it's a shit stat also) but at least it tells us something - namely that the player got the ball. The mark stat tells us literally nothing, it just double counts some of the disposals.

I didn't make my initial claim in the hope of soliciting statistical challengers. That Dawes got 26 possession on the weekend means little on its own, but it means a lot given how well he uses the ball - something that Cloke simply cannot match, and nor could Tarrant by 2006.

A performance of comparable statistical calibre, and of more value and importance, against better opposition is certainly significantly "better" in my view, which would make it the "best" back-to-back performance.

But not of comparable quality. Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree this discussion isn't going anywhere, is pretty ****ing tedious as it is, and should be killed ASAP. Over and out.

 

[shawthing09]

Multi quote warning

Tomahawk was also a manchild in the same team and tearing it up. He hasn't come on as hoped and Dawes has had more hurdles.

If anything this proves my point. Tomahawk is another example of a guy struggling to come to terms with not having the size and strength advantage over his competition.

Far be it from me to accept the actual players opinion on the subject when we all obviously have a better idea of the background of the injury and his skill levels prior.

Surely some subjectivity is needed? If I think I am very good at something and then come up against better competition it's going to be pretty hard to admitt that maybe I wasn't as good as I thought is it not? In most cases it would be easy to find another reason for me not being as performing to my own expectations.

I am in no way saying the injury didn't impact but as above a similar case from the same draft would be Hawkins who has also had injury issues but it's clearly not that which is holding him back. The fact is it is not at all uncommon for guys like Dawes to struggle when the size edge is taken away from their game. It's one of the reasons so many high draft rucks fail.

Dawes' overhead marking is still poor imo, his ability to actually contest in the air is what's improved markedly. He'll at least create a chance at ground level. He still struggles to take the one grab marks overhead.

All those players LOOK like better contested marks as their technique is better , but aside from Cloke, I don't think they would actually take more marks than Dawes. Hansen looks excellent overhead, but he rarely takes many marks up forward, the same with Gumbleton.

The Reid comparison is a little unfair as taking marks in the backline is usually far easier.

I agree that Dawes appears average or below average in this area of the game, but looking at the stats he produces often makes me wonder if we are not overstating the problem a touch.

I think technically I still kind of agree with Smiddaz. He is hardly a one touch, arms out streched sticky hands type marking player. The fact is (as I mentioned at the start of the thread) he is contesting much better in the air and he is so good below his knees that he mops up a really high amount of the marks that he drops, when you combine that with his ability to find a target with the handball you aren't really losing much by him not taking the mark.

As for the idea of contested marks going out of the game, they largely have but guys like Riewoldt, Franklin etc make their marks uncontested by getting the ball so high that the defender doesn't have much of a chance.

I used to think that Dawes would need to be a really strong contested marking player to have major impact at AFL level, but I think with he is showing more and more that his ground level ability means that he can have pretty big influence just by being a strong aerial target and marking the ones he can and mopping up a high percentage of the ones he doesn't. He is deffinately a unique KPF.

 

[Ed D]

Oh, please. At least I don't resort to emoticons. D) In any case, yes you could same a similar thing about disposals (it's a shit stat also) but at least it tells us something - namely that the player got the ball. The mark stat tells us literally nothing, it just double counts some of the disposals.

I disagree with that, marking tells a lot about a KPF. Even if it's uncontested it means they can peal off their player or push up the ground. Marking is an extremely important thing for a KPFs as it usually means shots on goal or assists. In saying that, looking at stats and using that as the sole way to judge a player/game is wrong because they don't tell you the whole picture like opponents, weather, umpiring, coaching styles, player fitness, anything along those lines.

 

[The Average Tourist]

I have been abig fan since he kicked 5 against Box Hill Hawks

He has played 32 games let us wait until he has played 60 games and then discuss.

But Hell I am very excited

Has anyone seen that Lid from October last year.

I would like it back on