Carl Williams

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Victoria police must have been laughing their heads off privately when Carl Williams pleaded guilty to a number of the Gangland slayings.
Any big time criminal knows the adage "never ever plead guilty" You are on a hiding to nothing pleading guilty. Things can go wrong at trial and with a not guilty plea. at least you have a glimmer of hope of getting off,.
Williams seemed genuinely shocked when Justice Betty King gave him a tongue lashing before throwing the sentencing kitchen sink at him. What did he honestly expect.?
From prison he later expressed remorse about his guilty plea, and it must have dawned on him that co-operation with police was the only way he might make life a bit better for himself and his family. Absolute folly- he should have been trying to cut deals before he was gaoled -not after,,,
His mate Mokbel also inexplicably entered a guilty plea and must have been kicking himself when subsequent events relating to corrupt drug squad police meant he would have had a good chance of beating a lot of the charges levelled against him.
Interesting that Matt Johnston was being paid just under 200 bucks a month into his prison buy up account by George Williams. There is little doubt this money was in return for "protection".
Carl Williams felt it was necessary to inform Johnston of the deals he was doing with Ethical standards from behind bars ,and that he was informing only on corrupt police and not fellow criminals. So it is clear that the Williams trusted him and were completely blindsided by his treacherous act of murder.
I predict a grim end for Johnston in prison.

William's and Mokbel weren't mates.

George wasn't putting money into Johnson's account.

Why would Carl need protection when he was isolated from mainstream crooks and was only housed with who HE wanted to be with?

 

[Badge666]

William's and Mokbel weren't mates.

George wasn't putting money into Johnson's account.

Why would Carl need protection when he was isolated from mainstream crooks and was only housed with who HE wanted to be with?

William's and Mokbel weren't mates.

George wasn't putting money into Johnson's account.

Why would Carl need protection when he was isolated from mainstream crooks and was only housed with who HE wanted to be with?

1" Mates ." Ok i will concede associates is probably a more accurate term.
2 Wasn't putting money into Johnsons account.? What a load of bollocks , he certainly was- the precise sum was 190 dollars this has been reported many times in mainstream media .
3 The very fact that Williams could choose his cellmates is "protection"- protection against a random enemy or paid assassin being placed in the secure unit. The secure units can be broken into and prison guards will not intervene until appropriate reinforcements arrive-during the" trial from hell"" it was revealed Johnston spent 45 minutes uninterrupted breaking into Greg Brazels supposedly secure unit before assaulting him.
Also Someone who posed a threat to Williams could have been transferred into the secure unit at any time and in that case Johnston would have been paid protection against attack.
it is folly to suggest Williams didn't seek or need protection whilst he was in prison. He had made some very very powerful enemies ,and ultimately he was killed in prison. Thats why he needed protection.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

1" Mates ." Ok i will concede associates is probably a more accurate term.
2 Wasn't putting money into Johnsons account.? What a load of bollocks , he certainly was- the precise sum was 190 dollars this has been reported many times in mainstream media .
3 The very fact that Williams could choose his cellmates is "protection"- protection against a random enemy or paid assassin being placed in the secure unit. The secure units can be broken into and prison guards will not intervene until appropriate reinforcements arrive-during the" trial from hell"" it was revealed Johnston spent 45 minutes uninterrupted breaking into Greg Brazels supposedly secure unit before assaulting him.
Also Someone who posed a threat to Williams could have been transferred into the secure unit at any time and in that case Johnston would have been paid protection against attack.
it is folly to suggest Williams didn't seek or need protection whilst he was in prison. He had made some very very powerful enemies ,and ultimately he was killed in prison. Thats why he needed protection.

Wasn't putting money into Johnson's account.

They would never have transferred anyone into William's unit with out the ok from VicPol, Prison Authorities and Williams himself.

They broke into Brazel's exercise yard.

The day Carl was killed, George came in for a visit. I processed him through the front gate and had him escorted down to Acacia. He left some magazines and jocks for Carl at the gate.

Carl used to get the HUN each day. The day that he was killed, the entire front page was a story about him co-operating with police and in return Dakota was having her private school fees paid and VicPol were going to take care of George's huge tax bill.

Carl was having his visit so while he was in there Johnson read Carl's paper like he always did.

A little while earlier, Paul Dale was also housed in Acacia. He may or may not have been aware that Johnson was in there too since they were in different units within Acacia. The other unit contained Mokbel and Goussis (imo, probably the best unit in the prison). There is a fourth unit but that was for punishment. Unless Johnson and Dale were able to yell at each other at night then there was really no other way for them to communicate. I'm not sure you'd be cooking up a hit that way.

So for me, there's one of two likely scenarios with one being more likely than the other.

Dale has set it up or Johnson has flipped when he's seen the front page story about Carl co-operating with the coppers. You have to remember that the reason Johnson wasn't out in mainstream was because of his last crime which involved a woman and her daughter at a McDonalds. He was persona non gratia with the P.O.W's. . Perhaps he thought that by kiliing Carl, he may earn back some of his prestige.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Wasn't putting money into Johnson's account.

They would never have transferred anyone into William's unit with out the ok from VicPol, Prison Authorities and Williams himself.

They broke into Brazel's exercise yard.

The day Carl was killed, George came in for a visit. I processed him through the front gate and had him escorted down to Acacia. He left some magazines and jocks for Carl at the gate.

Carl used to get the HUN each day. The day that he was killed, the entire front page was a story about him co-operating with police and in return Dakota was having her private school fees paid and VicPol were going to take care of George's huge tax bill.

Carl was having his visit so while he was in there Johnson read Carl's paper like he always did.

A little while earlier, Paul Dale was also housed in Acacia. He may or may not have been aware that Johnson was in there too since they were in different units within Acacia. The other unit contained Mokbel and Goussis (imo, probably the best unit in the prison). There is a fourth unit but that was for punishment. Unless Johnson and Dale were able to yell at each other at night then there was really no other way for them to communicate. I'm not sure you'd be cooking up a hit that way.

So for me, there's one of two likely scenarios with one being more likely than the other.

Dale has set it up or Johnson has flipped when he's seen the front page story about Carl co-operating with the coppers. You have to remember that the reason Johnson wasn't out in mainstream was because of his last crime which involved a woman and her daughter at a McDonalds. He was persona non gratia with the P.O.W's. . Perhaps he thought that by kiliing Carl, he may earn back some of his prestige.

Wasn’t Rocco that mafia guy believed to be behind the hit? With little tommy on the phone to him at the time?

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Wasn’t Rocco that mafia guy believed to be behind the hit? With little tommy on the phone to him at the time?

Tommy and Carl were definitely good mates. iirc, Tommy was Godfather to Carl's kid (or vice versa). He was on the phone to Arico immediately after the killing.

People say that Tommy just stood by while his good mate was killed, and he did but I honestly don't know what people would have expected him to do under the circumstances, he's only a little fella, Johnson would have probably just killed him too.

 

[Badge666]

Wasn’t Rocco that mafia guy believed to be behind the hit? With little tommy on the phone to him at the time?

Arico, Gatto and Dale have all been on the shortlist of suspects for organising Williams murder. However Williams statement to Ethical standards Police that he needed to explain to Johnson that he was only grassing on corrupt police and not fellow criminals indicates he was fearful of Johnson and they may have had a recent falling out.
There is always the possibility Johnson, who is little more than a none too bright very small time thug from the suburbs with form for murdering a kid who lashed on him for a fifty dollar marijuana deal, (yes thats right not a misprint fifty bucks) saw the prison murder of Williams as a chance at his entry into the Australian Criminal worlds "big time".
The fool has subsequently written a number of well publicised letters to other notorious prisoners including Hudson, Ivanovic ,etc in which he christened himself with the moniker "the General" and it appears as though he may have hopes of emulating the literary exploits of Mark "Chopper " Read who was also little more than a criminal buffoon and wannabe.

 

[sprockets]

"AFTER his release from prison George Williams, who had been convicted of drug offences, seemed to take some pity on Johnson - or felt it wise to - depositing $190 a month into Johnson's prison spending account for every-day needs as a ''gesture'', he told the court. ''He didn't have much in the way of income or family to look after him,'' George Williams said."

It appears that's what William's Sr told the court and it would be easily verified.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ho-murdered-carl-williams-20110929-1kzc6.html

 

[Badge666]

"AFTER his release from prison George Williams, who had been convicted of drug offences, seemed to take some pity on Johnson - or felt it wise to - depositing $190 a month into Johnson's prison spending account for every-day needs as a ''gesture'', he told the court. ''He didn't have much in the way of income or family to look after him,'' George Williams said."

It appears that's what William's Sr told the court and it would be easily verified.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ho-murdered-carl-williams-20110929-1kzc6.html

Good Post. Good dialogue, Enjoying the conversation with you and Herne Hill Hammer . This is what a true Crime forum discussion should be like all the time, Thanks.

 

[Kurve]

A little while earlier, Paul Dale was also housed in Acacia.

Where's Dave Mieshel now Herne Hill Hammer do you know?

I met them once upon a time. Put off by PDale, his hands looked like they'd never done an honest days work and his nails were manicured. Perfect blow wave not a hair out of place, a tad too much aftershave and pretty sure he had shoulder pads in his jacket. Never trust a cop who's that forensically tidy.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Where's Dave Mieshel now Herne Hill Hammer do you know?

I met them once upon a time. Put off by PDale, his hands looked like they'd never done an honest days work and his nails were manicured. Perfect blow wave not a hair out of place, a tad too much aftershave and pretty sure he had shoulder pads in his jacket. Never trust a guy who's that forensically tidy.

Mischel, last I saw him was in Melaleuca at Barwon. Very pale and dishevelled looking. Could only run out on his own. It would have been sending him mad. Williams was in there too at the same time.

He was moved to another prison, I'd assume Port Phillip not long after I started.

He was in the news a few weeks ago seeking release.

 

[Kurve]

Mischel, last I saw him was in Melaleuca at Barwon. Very pale and dishevelled looking. Could only run out on his own. It would have been sending him mad. Williams was in there too at the same time.

He was moved to another prison, I'd assume Port Phillip not long after I started.

The spelling of his surname is weird, I generally muck it up and can't find him on internet searches. Miechel was always really scruffy and dishevelled looking, hair was long and greasy, undercover too long I thought. An opposite to PDale in style but I've got no doubt they were partners. If presentation is anything to go by, it probably shouldn't be a surprise Miechel went under and though they keep trying can't get a charge to stick to Slick.

 

[MaddAdam]

Anybody know what's going on with this? There was so much more to the story, bit surprised this thread isn't more active actually.

Rocco will be getting deported once he finishes his sentence which seems to suit everybody, given the new version of events that he had Carl whacked seems to suit everybody.

Rod Collins is dead, which will suit Paul Dale, as the Hodsons stuff is now "unsolvable".

Funny how David Miechel could be getting out now despite never opening his gob about all that.

I mean, hey, call me a cynic but just say old mate Miechel DID KNOW where they very large stash of cash he and Dale had been collecting from their activities was, and he and Dale were smart enough to never go near that stash, but did tell their brothers in The Brotherhood about it, then, Miechel and Dale could have got away with murder (lots of murders) and still have their millions to retire with, and the boys all get a drink too.

If you were a cynic and thought that large sections of VicPol were dirtier than a drunken American backpacker in a Prague hostel that is.

 

[MaddAdam]

Dale has set it up or Johnson has flipped when he's seen the front page story about Carl co-operating with the coppers. You have to remember that the reason Johnson wasn't out in mainstream was because of his last crime which involved a woman and her daughter at a McDonalds. He was persona non gratia with the P.O.W's. . Perhaps he thought that by kiliing Carl, he may earn back some of his prestige.

Close, so very very close to putting the pieces together.

 

[MaddAdam]

Where's Dave Mieshel now Herne Hill Hammer do you know?

I met them once upon a time. Put off by PDale, his hands looked like they'd never done an honest days work and his nails were manicured. Perfect blow wave not a hair out of place, a tad too much aftershave and pretty sure he had shoulder pads in his jacket. Never trust a cop who's that forensically tidy.

You met Dale and Miechel, and you looked after Bert Wrout.

Trish is posting here?

 

[Kurve]

You met Dale and Miechel, and you looked after Bert Wrout.

Trish is posting here?

Not Trish. I didn't look after Bert, nothing personal in it but we got along well considering. It was work, I wouldn't have been there if it was a bore and I wasn't being paid well.

 

[Kurve]

I mean, hey, call me a cynic but just say old mate Miechel DID KNOW where they very large stash of cash he and Dale had been collecting from their activities was, and he and Dale were smart enough to never go near that stash, but did tell their brothers in The Brotherhood about it, then, Miechel and Dale could have got away with murder (lots of murders) and still have their millions to retire with, and the boys all get a drink too.

If you were a cynic and thought that large sections of VicPol were dirtier than a drunken American backpacker in a Prague hostel that is.

There's something in that imo, Miechel might get his reward at the end by staying quiet. Makes sense but the arrangement would be strictly between the two, not any wider. They were fairly well known as being dirty (in a small way) is my understanding, that was enough to compromise the rest of them who mostly weren't.

 

[Kurve]

Anyway, my spies tell me the OPP hasn't given up on PDale yet.

 

[MaddAdam]

Anyway, my spies tell me the OPP hasn't given up on PDale yet.

I haven't given up on North winning the flag this year either.

 

[Kurve]

Tommy and Carl were definitely good mates. iirc, Tommy was Godfather to Carl's kid (or vice versa). He was on the phone to Arico immediately after the killing.

People say that Tommy just stood by while his good mate was killed, and he did but I honestly don't know what people would have expected him to do under the circumstances, he's only a little fella, Johnson would have probably just killed him too.

Wasn't PDale and Tommy also way back mates? What a small world it is ...

 

[MaddAdam]

Wasn't PDale and Tommy also way back mates? What a small world it is ...

That's an understatement.

 

[Badge666]

There's something in that imo, Miechel might get his reward at the end by staying quiet. Makes sense but the arrangement would be strictly between the two, not any wider. They were fairly well known as being dirty (in a small way) is my understanding, that was enough to compromise the rest of them who mostly weren't.

Yes I am very interested in the Miechel story too. How absolutely IRONIC that whilst all the cream of Melbournes underworld were busy ratting each other out and turning "Dog" on their cronies as the underworld war wound down, that a member of the POLICE FORCE remained stoic and solid, took his hefty sentence without flinching or comment, and refused the no doubt generous Ethical Standards inducements to tell what he knows re the attempted drug ripoff and who was" in" on it. Talk about role reversals.

 

[Kurve]

Yes I am very interested in the Miechel story too. How absolutely IRONIC that whilst all the cream of Melbournes underworld were busy ratting each other out and turning "Dog" on their cronies as the underworld war wound down, that a member of the POLICE FORCE remained stoic and solid, took his hefty sentence without flinching or comment, and refused the no doubt generous Ethical Standards inducements to tell what he knows re the attempted drug ripoff and who was" in" on it. Talk about role reversals.

Ethicals are the natural enemy to cops as cops are to crooks and both operate in a similar culture. imo. No speakies.

Tony Mokbel's doing his time quietly, there's been no talk of him trying to cut any deals.

 

[Badge666]

Ethicals are the natural enemy to cops as cops are to crooks and both operate in a similar culture. imo. No speakies.

In that respect, I suppose at least Miechel wasn't a massive hypocrite.

Michael copped it sweet- ,an absolute monster sentence...15 years 12 non parole from memory....and what about Hodson.. within hours of his arrest for the burglary official documents naming him as a police informer had been stolen from St Kilda Road police station destined to be circulated in the underworld....he must have been squealing like a stuck pig as soon as he and Miechel were collared.. and word got straight back about it to a certain highly placed someone immediately.....what was Hodson thinking,?
If he had of shut his mouth he would have only copped a couple of years...if he was going to dob surely he should have demanded witness protection and a new identity ......strange.
I think he was a small fish from Perth who was totally out of his depth in amongst the Melbourne sharks at the end. The Melbourne crims including the crooked police play for keeps.

 

[Kurve]

Michael copped it sweet- ,an absolute monster sentence...15 years 12 non parole from memory....and what about Hodson.. within hours of his arrest for the burglary official documents naming him as a police informer had been stolen from St Kilda Road police station destined to be circulated in the underworld

Think that might have been a turning point, it had to be acknowledged elements in there were totally out of control. Staggering really, informers regardless of what they say can't be guaranteed anonymity and safety anyway imo not even if hearings are in camera, it always gets out but the police took a huge hit in damage to public confidence. Worst PR .. ever.

 

[MaddAdam]

Ethicals are the natural enemy to cops as cops are to crooks and both operate in a similar culture. imo. No speakies.

Tony Mokbel's doing his time quietly, there's been no talk of him trying to cut any deals.

He's got his hopes pinned on the Lawyer X finally getting somewhere.