Caro rips into Judd captaincy

[yaco55]

Then I suppose we would draw our own conclusions on a person who thinks that rape and drug trafficking are less serious than a big night out.

You didn't read my post properly - Read Post 199 which summarises my interpretation of Caro's opinion piece.

Carlton supporters - Please get your head of the sand.

Last Year, I mentioned in the Fevola thread,that his antics on Brownlow Medal night - have put at least one media organisation offside - And you will have to wear it.

You only had to read the Critical Headline in the HUN, about Fevola's performance for Brisbane in the NAB Cup, to see this has more legs.

At least as a consolation for Blues supporters, some of the Fevola heat is now being transferred to Brisbane.

 

[Seth]

How is that at all being a drama queen? She clearly states that a drinking session was more disgraceful to the league than a rape charge and a confession of drug possession/distribution. That is trivialising the two.

No she didn't. She highlighted that the other 2 incidents were individuals who did things outside of the club where these were incidents involving the team and the leadership's lack of intestinal fortitude to deal with them.

Face it Judd's a crap captain. A great player but a bad leader. he hasn't got the balls to make hard decisions and assert discipline within his players. Some leaders have that ability, some don't' and Judd is 1 of the latter.

 

[QuietB]

Surely Hawthorn supporters realise that they are a suppression order away from severe embarrassment on the matter of "culture". One more strike ... and you're out!

St Kilda supporters have really hit the culture jackpot too: out Ball, in Lovett. Well done guys. And it was after a club function. Brilliant stuff. Thommo would be rolling in his core values.

It's pretty funny to see all these posters lining up to have pot shots at Judd. None of you would have a clue as to his leadership qualities. After turning to Caro for inspiration and support a few of you should feel very, very dirty.

There are 60 or 70 players in the AFL on one strike, nearly 10 on 2 strikes as at half way through last year. Some of those might be at your club.

The article is not about which incident is worse or about grading incidents. It is about your captains leadership. He has been there 2 years and he is a revered figure yet your players continue to do the wrong thing.

Geelong identified this in their club years ago and dealt with it. Collingwood did the same at the end of 2008. I would like to think that the Hawks have dealt with their discipline issues under Clarko, and the bombers will need to do the same.

As long as Carlton have their heads buried in the sand and continue to deflect the issue and squabble over which incidents are worse and whether Caroline Wilson has any credibility or not instead of dealing with actual issues which are real and undeniable, as a club they will not be successful.

 

[JeffDunne]

Why do people like to focus on Judd?

Seriously, I as much as anyone like to take shots at Carlton, but it's a nonsense to suggest he's not a positive influence. Some players lead by example. He's one of those.

To blame him for the events at the Brownlow night is simply stupid. The entire club admin was there. The president. The CEO. The coach. Somehow Judd is to blame? Christ, we're talking about a veteran player in Fev too, not some kid Judd had taken under his wing.

No doubt Carlton have issues they need to address. Professionalism from the playing group would be top of the list. Surely Judd gives you the perfect example for the rest of the playing group - especially with their young guns?

Judd cops the blame IMO for the same reason Carlton continue to have these problems - a cronic lack of leadership & professionalism from the top down. How Judd carries himself is the least of their problems.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

The article is not about which incident is worse or about grading incidents. It is about your captains leadership. He has been there 2 years and he is a revered figure yet your players continue to do the wrong thing.

Geelong identified this in their club years ago and dealt with it. Collingwood did the same at the end of 2008. I would like to think that the Hawks have dealt with their discipline issues under Clarko, and the bombers will need to do the same.

The article tries to justify why the Carlton incident requires scrutiny, and that is because it was supposedly worse - It is not worse. That is pretty plain. You could cut it anyway you like as to who has what culture - Caro's cutting it against us, and that's fair enough.

But, I still cannot understand how cutting ties with the best full forward in the game, and placing club suspensions and fines on the players involved isn't at least attempting to deal with the issue. Obviously if we have a drinking culture, then the culture will take more than a few months to eradicate, as that is how cultures work - another reason why this article is utter rubbish in passing judgement on a cleansing that will take more than the 3 or so months she's given it in order to see results - another cheap shot.

Drink driving is a far more serious issue than public drunkeness and the Collingwood boys were punished accordingly - I'll plead ignorance to the reasons SJ was suspended.

 

[JeffDunne]

Carlton don't have a 'bad' culture as such - it's simply one that is outdated.

Players respect authority, they just lack professionlism and leadership from that authority.

If that doesn't change then it really doesn't matter what the captain does - it won't change.

 

[irukandji]

How is that an important bit? What is to be gained by naming and shaming one player when they were all privy to it? The age old drinking initiation is what this was, as passe as that is. Judd spoke on behalf of the whole playing group when he said it was unacceptable and they had to behave their way out of it. Exposing one player who was only doing the popular thing is pointless except for a bit of a witchhunt.

It depends who it was.

 

[King Elvis]

Inherently non-sensical.

Seriously though, he doesn't seem like the type to take this kind of advice well - I'm sure we've all got those mates that you'd hesitate in telling them what to do in a given state - Fev seems like one of them.

That's no excuse of course, but still, the Fevola incident was dealt with.

I've got a couple of mates who get a bit loose when they're really hammered - so the rest of us tell them to ease up before they get to that stage; not try and control them when they already have.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It depends who it was.

So you want the name to be revealed so the general public can decide if the player was important enough to be revealed?

That makes sense.

 

[QuietB]

The article tries to justify why the Carlton incident requires scrutiny, and that is because it was supposedly worse - It is not worse. That is pretty plain. You could cut it anyway you like as to who has what culture - Caro's cutting it against us, and that's fair enough.

But, I still cannot understand how cutting ties with the best full forward in the game, and placing club suspensions and fines on the players involved isn't at least attempting to deal with the issue. Obviously if we have a drinking culture, then the culture will take more than a few months to eradicate, as that is how cultures work - another reason why this article is utter rubbish in passing judgement on a cleansing that will take more than the 3 or so months she's given it in order to see results - another cheap shot.

Drink driving is a far more serious issue than public drunkeness and the Collingwood boys were punished accordingly - I'll plead ignorance to the reasons SJ was suspended.

It is not because it is worse, it is because it is endemic throughout the whole squad.

How can Carlton fans defend their players getting smashed on a booze cruise and forcing rookies to drink more than they should, multiple players then get arrested that night and it is splashed all over the media.

Now that might be ok, it is a big day/night that got out of hand, except, half of the same players did pretty much the same thing only a couple of months earlier the week before the finals and were disciplined, and your 2nd best player was sacked for pretty much the same thing only a month or 2 earlier.

If I was a Carlton supporter I would be pretty angry that it was allowed to happen AGAIN. Clearly there is a lack of leadership somewhere. As long as that is no ones fault you guys will go nowhere which actually suits me fine.

The recent Stokes and Lovett incidents are clearly more serious, but they are not endemic problems in the respective football clubs - hopefully. There is not much the best leadership in the world can do about individuals being complete ********s every now and then.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I believe its been widely reported that he and Judd sat drinking piss in the casino all arvo before the Brownlow.

For better or worse Judd is captain, and he sits drinking heavily with a player he knows acts like a goose when he's drunk.

There is the problem. The embellishment. If they were drinking heavily all afternoon, they would have been looking pretty messy from the outset. That was not the case. There is a difference between booking in early, heading downstairs to have a couple of quiet drinks and shoot pool or do some gambling, and drinking heavily all afternoon. You and I both know that they only had to be seen downstairs nursing a drink or two for people to come out with the story that they were on the piss in the afternoon.

If you do not know what they were drinking, do not know how many they had, heard no reports of bad behaviour that afternoon, then you can't really come to the conclusions that you are. It's opportunistic muckraking really, not that you are the only one that has picked up on a small story and embellished it for the sake of BigFooty oneupmanship.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

How can Carlton fans defend their players getting smashed on a booze cruise and forcing rookies to drink more than they should, multiple players then get arrested that night and it is splashed all over the media.

Now that might be ok, it is a big day/night that got out of hand, except, half of the same players did pretty much the same thing only a couple of months earlier the week before the finals and were disciplined, and your 2nd best player was sacked for pretty much the same thing only a month or 2 earlier.

Speaking of embellishment ....

 

[irukandji]

So you want the name to be revealed so the general public can decide if the player was important enough to be revealed?

That makes sense.

Do I have to join the dots for you?

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

It is not because it is worse, it is because it is endemic throughout the whole squad.

Multiple players then get arrested that night and it is splashed all over the media.

Now that might be ok, it is a big day/night that got out of hand, except, half of the same players did pretty much the same thing only a couple of months earlier the week before the finals and were disciplined

If I was a Carlton supporter I would be pretty angry...

As I mentioned before, Wilson could cut it any way to suggest that the drugs problem was 'endemic' throughout Geelong, and assault was 'endemic' throughout St. Kilda. Particularly, the St. Kilda one has some merit with Milne and Montagna a rather recent and very real instance of alleged assault occuring. Again, this is about what tarnished the image of the game. Trying to justify the article in terms of what tarnished the reputation of the AFL more, a rape charge or a drinking session, and concluding that it was the latter - no matter how endemic they are within a club, is utter nonsense. If we as a society see a rape charge as less disgraceful than public drunkeness, there is something fundamentally awry.

One player got arrested.

This third paragraph is sensational tripe, much like what Wilson produces with regularity. Players arrived late to a training session - I'm not sure there is evidence or even inference of anything otherwise.

We all were angry.

 

[absfab]

It is not because it is worse, it is because it is endemic throughout the whole squad.

If you could just resist the temptation to go over the top in exageration, you might have a point.

Caro's article, as usual, is intellectually null and void sensationalism.

Carlton DOES have an issue with team culture hanging over from a horrible dark decade. All clubs treat their more talented players differently in disciplinary matters (even though they claim otherwise), and the less talented players the club has the more differently they are treated.

I'm also quite content that the Club has moved to address the problem, and will continue along that path. But even somebody as dense as Caro should know that a group dynamic does not change with the flick of a switch. It takes perseverance.

Despite Caro's wish for a big splash story Carlton is not the only club with some players who like a few more than is sensible. There have been a fair number of know incidents over summer, and a fair few more which smell like booze despite Club spin to the contrary.

 

[absfab]

Carlton don't have a 'bad' culture as such - it's simply one that is outdated.

Players respect authority, they just lack professionlism and leadership from that authority.

If that doesn't change then it really doesn't matter what the captain does - it won't change.

Really. By that logic a certain high profile recruit wouldn't have been sacked yesterday. Exposure to "professionalism and leadership" would have earned his respect.

 

[evo]

Why do people like to focus on Judd?

Seriously, I as much as anyone like to take shots at Carlton, but it's a nonsense to suggest he's not a positive influence. Some players lead by example. He's one of those.

To blame him for the events at the Brownlow night is simply stupid. The entire club admin was there. The president. The CEO. The coach. Somehow Judd is to blame? Christ, we're talking about a veteran player in Fev too, not some kid Judd had taken under his wing.

No doubt Carlton have issues they need to address. Professionalism from the playing group would be top of the list. Surely Judd gives you the perfect example for the rest of the playing group - especially with their young guns?

Judd cops the blame IMO for the same reason Carlton continue to have these problems - a cronic lack of leadership & professionalism from the top down. How Judd carries himself is the least of their problems.

The longer Sticks remains in a senior role at Carlton, the happier I am.

 

[JeffDunne]

Really. By that logic a certain high profile recruit wouldn't have been sacked yesterday. Exposure to "professionalism and leadership" would have earned his respect.

Believe me when I say . . . WTF?

Do you know anything at all about the events surrounding the "certain high profile recruit"? Judging by your post I doubt it.

Carlton supporters like to individualise each episode of "players behaving poorly" and pass it off as a minor incident. Christ this thread alone is full of such justifications. What Caro's article was highlighting (rather poorly I might add) is that it's the pattern of behaviour that should disturb people about Carlton, not the individual incidents.

In fact, if we were to use the "certain high profile recruit" as an example, it's clear some clubs act decisively when players screw-up, others act purely out of perceived self-interest.

It's a pity for those Carlton supporters that realise it's only a perception that the majority sill buy into the "we're Carlton, f*** the rest" mindset.

 

[joeyavalanche]

Wait.... Stop....


All you Carlton fans trying to justify and have excuses to exactly what is going on down there.

Whether or not techincally at the brownlow things were really that bad, or the boat cruise etc.

The point is....

YOUR CLUB IS PUTTING ITSELF IN THAT POSITION!

Do you really think reasoning all this stuff makes it ok?
How bout dont even get close to doing these things in future and save yourselves the hassle.



P.S Hendersssssssssssssssssssssssssson!

 

[absfab]

In fact, if we were to use the "certain high profile recruit" as an example, it's clear some clubs act decisively when players screw-up, others act purely out of perceived self-interest.

You can't have it both ways. You're the one that claimed players will respect authority, if only it is there. This fella clearly didn't. St Kilda yanked his chain and he ignored you.

And as for claiming the high moral ground for sacking the man? What, other than perceived self interest, possessed St Kilda to recruit a known poison against the clearly stated wishes of its own leadership group in the first place? Demonstrably poor judgement, motivated by a GF loss.

And yes, as far as I'm concerned "let them rot" remains the case.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Do I have to join the dots for you?

You can weld the dots and paint them purple for all I care.

If this is a traditional player breakup and rookies have traditionally been initiated in this way, then the problem is with the practice, not the individual who happened to be involved on this occasion. Singling out one player for this when the whole group have officially been put on notice, achieves nothing except to sate the appetites of a group of opposition supporters whose opinions don't matter anyway.

 

[markjjj]

IMO the supporters of the following clubs should STFU

In no particular order:
Collingwood- Didak,Shaw, Shaw, Pendlebury...enough said

Bumbers.....Lovett, Hurley...see above

Cats.....S Johnson, D Johnson, Stokes and wait for it....G Abblett.....ask the Horan family about him! Caro forgot that one.

Saints........Milne,Montagna, Gehrig

Tigers....Taylor

West Coke....where do we start?

Shall i go on?

Every club has problems.......my beloved Blues included.

Don't sit there all high and mighty......i can drag up dirt on every club.

 

[crackersrulz]

For going on a bender and force-drinking a rookie to the point that his parents were called.

Clearly the worst incident of the lot.

Absolutely......

You clearly know what you're talking about.......

A player allegedly raping a woman ( and now charged).....

A player "charged" with allegedly bashing a taxi driver....

Are clearly in no comparison to getting a young fella p1ssed and ringing his parents to come get him and let him "sleep it off"......

Fair dinkum, let's rationalise things here.......

According to Caro, dressing a mannequin up in lingerie while some old bashers face is stuck to it, is an absolute travesty to womens rights, but an "alleged" rape of a woman takes a back seat to a young bloke getting blind on a footy trip....

Does this woman, and those who agree with her reek of double standards or what????????????

 

[The Falcon Strike]

.......

According to Caro, dressing a mannequin up in lingerie while some old bashers face is stuck to it, is an absolute travesty to womens rights, but an "alleged" rape of a woman takes a back seat to a young bloke getting blind on a footy trip....?

of course!!

though caro can find insults to women in any story

 

[Hodgepodge]

Absolutely......

You clearly know what you're talking about.......

A player allegedly raping a woman ( and now charged).....

A player "charged" with allegedly bashing a taxi driver....

Are clearly in no comparison to getting a young fella p1ssed and ringing his parents to come get him and let him "sleep it off"......

Fair dinkum, let's rationalise things here.......

According to Caro, dressing a mannequin up in lingerie while some old bashers face is stuck to it, is an absolute travesty to womens rights, but an "alleged" rape of a woman takes a back seat to a young bloke getting blind on a footy trip....

lol

I think the article acknowledged that the rape charge was more serious but was not a culture problem at StKilda (regardless of the failed charges against Milne in 2004). Therefore it couldn't be recognized as a failure of leadership.

Wilson didn't seek an apology on sexist grounds. She just found it personally offensive.

An alleged rape isn't more serious than a young bloke getting pissed on a footy trip. And that's hardly the whole story either.

Exaggerating one side and downplaying the other to make an argument.

Neil Mitchell's oldest hand.