No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[60sbomber]

Really? The judgement said "Records say player Jobe Watson was injected with Thymosin therefore we ban him for two years" did it?

Actually, the judgement said "Player xxx consented to a form of thymosin, and we assume he got it, and we assume that it was TB4, because Dank used TB4 elsewhere (eventhough that elsewhere might or might not have been a sportsman subject to the WADA code, we're going to assume it was Sandor Earl), and we don't think he would have used the legal sort of thymosin (that he used at Melbourne)"

So yeah, pretty clear really, if you make all the right assumptions.

 

[Walesy]

Well from all my posts on the topic I'm glad we can agree the most important point is the meaning of "no idea".

You have a good idea on a lot of things related the ASAGA.

On this case, technically, you were wrong.

If I then extrapolated it and said that you had No Idea about the ASAGA at all, I would be as wrong as you were in this instance.

besides, it's a pretty big point.

"No idea" means they could be injecting the players with literally anything. It invokes numerous ethical and medical dangers that aren't actually inherent in the case. Why would you need to load your argument like that? Let it stand on its own two feet.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Actually, the judgement said "Player xxx consented to a form of thymosin, and we assume he got it, and we assume that it was TB4, because Dank used TB4 elsewhere (eventhough that elsewhere might or might not have been a sportsman subject to the WADA code, we're going to assume it was Sandor Earl), and we don't think he would have used the legal sort of thymosin (that he used at Melbourne)"

So yeah, pretty clear really, if you make all the right assumptions.

My point was there was no documentation of the injections themselves. Which there's not.

 

[IHurley]

Good grief.

a) Other people brought up what other clubs were doing. I'm saying that unless they did as bad we did, I don't care what they did. In fact I still don't care what they did. It doesn't change what we did.
b) Ask the players if they care that it was officially recorded. They don't seem to really know what they were injected with. They have ideas but they don't know. You're saying you'd be comfortable being injected dozens of times but not having it recorded anywhere, never really being sure? I doubt that.
c) We didn't get punished because of one unrecorded injection. We got punished because of HUNDREDS of unrecorded injections. If you're saying they're identical then good grief.
d) This is a very crude way of doing it, but if the investigation and AFL issues really were centred around AOD-9604 and not Thymosin, then why does the AFL charge sheet contain only 27 mentions of AOD but 57 of Thymosin? It was clearly part of it. To pretend it was one drug and one only is just silly.
e) So are you trying to say we actually did nothing wrong because it was only about AOD and we believed AOD was fine? Because if so, then once again, good grief.

b) Why on Earth would the players complain unless they were being held down and having injections forced into them? Like I said, I place no stock in the efficacy of these programs but it seems quite odd that the players are now so concerned about it all when as far as we know none of them were forced to have a single injection nor was there any sort of punishment for those who opted out of any or all of them.

And again you act as if recording it somewhere magically makes it more more or less safe/effective.

It really doesn't. I would much prefer an injection of Vitamin C that was off the books than an injection of strychnine that was meticulously detailed in the records.

c) The numbers are irrelevant unless they were orders of magnitudes more than any other club and there was a *systematic* reason for this discrepancy. Otherwise it is all just arbitrary. What is the cutoff for a club that gets zero punishment vs a club that has the most severe punishments in AFL history inflicted on it? 99 off the record injections is perfectly fine but 100 will have the book thrown at you? There are 40 odd players at a club. If each of them have four off the book Vit C injections then you could call that "hundreds". Like I said, in the absence of context it is nothing more than empty rhetoric.

d) The AFL charge sheet occurred *after* the investigation was launched. You do realise that don't you?

e) I never said we did nothing wrong. The supplements program was an expensive failure. We did nothing that we should be punished for. Not even a fine. And certainly nothing to warrant the sort of crippling punishments we did and are continuing to receive.

 

[ManWithNoName]

b) Why on Earth would the players complain unless they were being held down and having injections forced into them? Like I said, I place no stock in the efficacy of these programs but it seems quite odd that the players are now so concerned about it all when as far as we know none of them were forced to have a single injection nor was there any sort of punishment for those who opted out of any or all of them.

And again you act as if recording it somewhere magically makes it more more or less safe/effective.

It really doesn't. I would much prefer an injection of Vitamin C that was off the books than an injection of strychnine that was meticulously detailed in the records.

c) The numbers are irrelevant unless they were orders of magnitudes more than any other club and there was a *systematic* reason for this discrepancy. Otherwise it is all just arbitrary. What is the cutoff for a club that gets zero punishment vs a club that has the most severe punishments in AFL history inflicted on it? 99 off the record injections is perfectly fine but 100 will have the book thrown at you? There are 40 odd players at a club. If each of them have four off the book Vit C injections then you could call that "hundreds". Like I said, in the absence of context it is nothing more than empty rhetoric.

d) The AFL charge sheet occurred *after* the investigation was launched. You do realise that don't you?

e) I never said we did nothing wrong. The supplements program was an expensive failure. We did nothing that we should be punished for. Not even a fine. And certainly nothing to warrant the sort of crippling punishments we did and are continuing to receive.

b) I'm guessing they assumed it was being recorded. Like any competent organisation would. You can argue they should've made sure and so forth, but a football club the size of Essendon should be assumed to be doing the basics right.

And yes. I am acting as if recording injection dates, substances and dosage amounts makes things safer. Because it does.

c) One injection not recorded could simply be a mistake. Hundreds not recorded is not.

d) Yes but it (likely) summarises the investigation. Basic logic.

e) "We did nothing that we should be punished for" Now I'm just convinced you're a plant masquerading as an Essendon supporter

 

[Doss]

Joke as it may have been (I really hope it was), we definitely do not need the "you're a plant" stuff cropping up again. It has in the past and it's never ended well.

 

[efcboy]

b) I'm guessing they assumed it was being recorded. Like any competent organisation would. You can argue they should've made sure and so forth, but a football club the size of Essendon should be assumed to be doing the basics right.

And yes. I am acting as if recording injection dates, substances and dosage amounts makes things safer. Because it does.

c) One injection not recorded could simply be a mistake. Hundreds not recorded is not.

d) Yes but it (likely) summarises the investigation. Basic logic.

e) "We did nothing that we should be punished for" Now I'm just convinced you're a plant masquerading as an Essendon supporter

Are you aware of the spreadsheet that documents thymomodulin administration. I believe this spreadsheet was used to determine thymosin use. They CAS then assumed that it was tb4 and not thymomodulin administered.

Perhaps it was the lack of documentation that saved Melbourne FC?

 

[IHurley]

b) I'm guessing they assumed it was being recorded. Like any competent organisation would. You can argue they should've made sure and so forth, but a football club the size of Essendon should be assumed to be doing the basics right.

And yes. I am acting as if recording injection dates, substances and dosage amounts makes things safer. Because it does.

c) One injection not recorded could simply be a mistake. Hundreds not recorded is not.

d) Yes but it (likely) summarises the investigation. Basic logic.

e) "We did nothing that we should be punished for" Now I'm just convinced you're a plant masquerading as an Essendon supporter

b) Which speaks to your capacity for logic on this issue. Why would they have cared? Are you seriously telling me that the one and only thing that interested them was not the ingredients of the injections but whether or not the Club would have a full spreadsheet to give to ASADA in a year's time?

And no. It really doesn't. The dosage amounts might matter so that you don't double or triple up but, again, without context we don't even know that that was a significant issue. It might have been. But statements like "hundreds of off record injections" provide no useful information as to whether that is true.

c) You just ignored what I said. If the club did something (or failed to do something) that caused an order of magnitude greater number of these non-recorded injections than any other club in the competition then your arguments might hold water. But you can't a) show that they did have orders of magnitudes more off-record injections; and b) explain what systematic issue there was at EFC that no other club had (or is likely to have had).

You start out with the assumption that an off-record injection of, say, Vitamin C is some great historical tragedy but I don't believe that it is and I strongly doubt that any other club before 2013 believed that it was either.

d) That is not basic logic. If the AFL never suspected anything banned was used in the first place then there probably never would have been an investigation in the first place - let alone a joint one. The belief that AOD9604 was banned led to the investigation which led to a suspicion of thymosin (of some kind).

e) I don't believe in compromising on truth in order to gain 'credibility'. Such a thing is neither moral nor pragmatic. The CAS case against the players is only just better than non-existent and the AFL case against the club is nothing more than "the vibe". On the basis of that I don't believe the club nor the players should be punished.

Some people have said to me that the Club needs to come out and be contrite. When I point out that the Club has apologised many times they just say "those apologies aren't sufficiently grovelling for my liking". People such as that are like SJWs - they don't believe in apologies because they want to forgive and move on they believe in apologies so their opponent has provided a confession and they will simply use this confession to justify inflicting further punishments.

The sanctimonious and the zealous. None of these people have honour. That is why no amount of punishment inflicted on our club was or will be enough. Many Essendon supporters have tried compromising and selling their club out - indeed so have many inside the club - you would think that by now they would have realised it makes no difference to the detractors.

 

[Doss]

There's a large difference between selling the club out and being able to admit we definitely did **** up massively.

Especially as a supporter.

 

[Walesy]

a plant masquerading as an Essendon supporter

 

[Lore]

.


<------------

 

[ManWithNoName]

.


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[MightyDon]

It (the judgment) is very logical and I can't imagine anyone who read that judgment, whether they are a lawyer or not, coming to a different conclusion to the one the tribunal itself came to.
John Fahey

Just 4 Australian judges who sat through all the evidence

 

[MightyDon]

Players need to appeal to the Australian courts for denial of natural justice.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Players need to appeal to the Australian courts for denial of natural justice.

It'd be great except they can't.

 

[Lore]

Perhaps in my case, an Essendon supporter masquerading as a plant.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Lol John Fahey.

 

[Doss]

Expansive comment...

 

[DapperJong]

lol doss

 

[Doss]

lol, Pyongyang.

 

[DapperJong]

lol i got nothin

 

[ManWithNoName]

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

#LOL JOHN FAHEY

 

[Doss]

I gathered that was the case, mate.

More wondering why.

 

[Mercurial89]

I gathered that was the case, mate.

More wondering why.

Doing his job for him, it may be in relation to this....


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...al-claim-for-essendon-34-20160124-gmd82d.html


"I thought it was an extraordinarily clear and convincing judgment," Fahey said SEN on Monday.

"I have read many, many CAS judgments. I don't know how many Mr Gordon has read to be familiar with, for instance, the standard of proof, which is to the comfortable satisfaction of the tribunal, which is different to criminal and civil courts.

"It (the judgment) is very logical and I can't imagine anyone who read that judgment, whether they are a lawyer or not, coming to a different conclusion to the one the tribunal itself came to.

Specifically, he said the players would not be able to prove they were duped into taking the substances injected into their bodies for they had signed "statutory declarations" which had effectively backed them into a legal corner.

"The 34 players knew what they were doing," he said.

"They actually signed a statutory declaration – they took an oath which carries a criminal penalty for failure.

"In fact, we had a NSW former federal court judge who did two-and-a-half years' jail for signing a false statutory declaration. They are the consequences of taking an oath.

"They signed declarations, so they can't say they didn't know they were doing something"

"And surely they didn't think they were doing that to whiten their teeth – getting all those injections."