Asia China's growing influence

[nut]

They are protesting about economic policies. They arent protesting against the government. The former is fine with some tolerance. The later is not.

And there are half a dozen other issues I raised. Not just protesting and computer game time bans.

You said protesting was banned
!!! It’s not
They get to vote for a local CCP candidate..

“need to score social points just to travel on trains”… ????? Skipped paying a fine in China? Then forget about buying an airline ticket… the outrage… seems fair to me!!!
Bunnings now has facial recognition and can ban people who steal!!!’
Try getting loan in Aus with a poor credit rating!!!!

that they divide literal rights based on whether you are born in the city or rural areas…..

Rubbish …

Hukou - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Try getting a anything in Aus with out a birth certificate…
There are 100s of millions of people on the planet with out bank accounts… millions in china…
Putting limits on addictive computer games in Australia is something I would support.

 

[barreness]

Carn mate, there is huge deviations across countries for the scale and breadth of freedoms their populations enjoy.
Even the most stoic Chinese state supporter wouldn’t try and argue their freedoms are comparable to that of an Australian citizen.

Yes I'd agree we are more free than an average Chinese person. We must heel to the state when necessary though, whistle-blowers and covid restrictions are some recent examples, also don't have a bill of rights or freedom of speech in the constitution.

There are huge deviations across countries, that was my point, all states will exert control when "necessary". To argue a state is authoritarian is meaningless, it's what they do(for good reasons and bad). I'd argue that Chinese people are aware that they aren't free while we live in a state of delusion that we are

 

[barreness]

They are protesting about economic policies. They arent protesting against the government. The former is fine with some tolerance. The later is not.

This is kinda interesting because in Australia we can't change the economic policies(the major parties are largely the same), but we are allowed to protest on social issues. Bourgeoisie democracy much

And there are half a dozen other issues I raised. Not just protesting and computer game time bans.

Go on?

 

[Seeds]

Yes I'd agree we are more free than an average Chinese person. We must heel to the state when necessary though, whistle-blowers and covid restrictions are some recent examples, also don't have a bill of rights or freedom of speech in the constitution.

There are huge deviations across countries, that was my point, all states will exert control when "necessary". To argue a state is authoritarian is meaningless, it's what they do(for good reasons and bad). I'd argue that Chinese people are aware that they aren't free while we live in a state of delusion that we are

But being more free is the point. And as you state, we are more free.

Perfect freedom is absence of government and that is a nightmare for all.

 

[nut]

But being more free is the point. And as you state, we are more free.

Perfect freedom is absence of government and that is a nightmare for all.

WTF…so no government is freedom??? LMFAO .. so no police … no hospitals… no defence force… no welfare …
Do we have to watch mad max movies to see what Freedom is????

Fear restricts freedoms more than anything … High crime rates etc .
I suppose having the freedoms to own a gun is freedom??? Can you explain to the 3000 children that die every year in the USA that they died for freedom?

Westerners are now opening their eyes to the anti China rhetoric and seeing for themselves how they have increased their standards of living in the last 20 years, whilst western counties are deteriorating ….

Being able to think laterally is freedom…. Being absorbed by propaganda is not.

 

[Rob R]

so why hasn’t the US with the most billionaires kept up with China’s growth in the last 20 years?

Because the US has been getting wealthier for decades whereas the CCP took and held the Chinese backwards for decades and only really took off once XIs predecessors put in reforms, reforms that Xi is undoing and putting their economy at risk with. Pretty easy to have higher growth from a low self (Mao) inflicted base.

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[nut]

Because the US has been getting wealthier for decades whereas the CCP took and held the Chinese backwards for decades and only really took off once XIs predecessors put in reforms, reforms that Xi is undoing and putting their economy at risk with. Pretty easy to have higher growth from a low self (Mao) inflicted base.

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Have you seen the cities that China is building? With its infrastructure?
I thought it would be easier to grow when you are already reach…

 

[CD Xbow]

PLA getting ready for winter conflict with India.

Chinese soldiers gear up for winter warfare | The Strategist

China is putting great effort into developing its soldiers’ ability to operate in high-altitude and cold environments, increasing its military capacity relative to India. Skills as simple as shovelling snow have become part of combat ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

I've seen Chinese cities, including ghost cities.

It's a pretty funny vid for a couple of reasons.

 

[CD Xbow]

Follow up to the post 'Is China at war with the US'. New phrase. ICAD. An acronym for illegal, coercive, aggressive and deceptive, now used to describe actions that would have formerly been called grey zone incidents. Labelling is important.

Moving beyond the grey zone: The case for ICAD | Lowy Institute

Why some Indo-Pacific nations are renaming the place between peace and war.

www.lowyinstitute.org

 

[barreness]

But being more free is the point. And as you state, we are more free.

Perfect freedom is absence of government and that is a nightmare for all.

Read my post before, you're taking a response as a stand alone point.

All states are authoritarian, the dichotomy of free vs not free is silly propaganda. Why is being more free the point? Humans are tribal/communal animals, the good of the 'tribe' will always come first

Western freedoms are mostly an illusion. I think the Chinese people are less deluded than us on average.

 

[Jello_B]

Yes I'd agree we are more free than an average Chinese person. We must heel to the state when necessary though, whistle-blowers and covid restrictions are some recent examples, also don't have a bill of rights or freedom of speech in the constitution.

There are huge deviations across countries, that was my point, all states will exert control when "necessary". To argue a state is authoritarian is meaningless, it's what they do(for good reasons and bad). I'd argue that Chinese people are aware that they aren't free while we live in a state of delusion that we are

Worth reflecting on your position when you have used two exceptional circumstances to demonstrate a point?

 

[barreness]

PLA getting ready for winter conflict with India.

Chinese soldiers gear up for winter warfare | The Strategist

China is putting great effort into developing its soldiers’ ability to operate in high-altitude and cold environments, increasing its military capacity relative to India. Skills as simple as shovelling snow have become part of combat ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Border troops in cold regions practice shovelling snow, wowee boy oh boy.
Gem statements in there;
".....the ability to achieve interconnected goals in complex environments would shape the results of conflict."

ASPI shouldn't be taken seriously, they're funded by arms companies and both the US and Aus war departments. It's a think tank to warmonger and funnel money to arms companies.

Reality is its a contested border(like most are), both sides have arguments and have de armed their forces to limit escalation

 

[barreness]

Worth reflecting on your position when you have used two exceptional circumstances to demonstrate a point?

That's exactly the point, "exceptional circumstances" = When the state decides it needs to crack down, see the silly dichotomy of free vs not free

How about climate protesters receiving jail time? Metadata collection laws? ASIO baiting a kid into "terror offences"(thought crimes)?

 

[Jello_B]

They vote at local level for a candidate that will represent the CCP. I’m not a fan of this system.

Seems to be going around in circles?
You asked for an example and I give one, which was pretty easy there are many more. And you even agree with the example I have given.

What are you debating here?

I think we agree that the Chinese state is more authoritarian than the Australian one. Are you saying that you are ok with having a state that is more authoritarian? Where are the limits for you?

If the CCP took over all Chinese media, banned private reporting, effected the media as a Nazi style propaganda channel, would that be ok?

 

[Jello_B]

That's exactly the point, "exceptional circumstances" = When the state decides it needs to crack down, see the silly dichotomy of free vs not free

How about climate protesters receiving jail time? Metadata collection laws? ASIO baiting a kid into "terror offences"(thought crimes)?

Do you have a source for someone in Australia peacefully protesting climate change and going to jail? Bearing in mind I would disagree with this, if this is true.

I am not aware of the asio one, link?

 

[Jello_B]

That's exactly the point, "exceptional circumstances" = When the state decides it needs to crack down, see the silly dichotomy of free vs not free

How about climate protesters receiving jail time? Metadata collection laws? ASIO baiting a kid into "terror offences"(thought crimes)?

And sorry on your first point, I think we are talking about different things.
There is a difference when a government enacts a law, policy, position etc… when they deem it to be in the public interest. Eg COVID.
Compared to a government that enacts a law to preserve their own interests.

 

[nut]

Do you have a source for someone in Australia peacefully protesting climate change and going to jail? Bearing in mind I would disagree with this, if this is true.

I am not aware of the asio one, link?

We also put whistleblowers in jail!!!

 

[barreness]

I've seen Chinese cities, including ghost cities.

It's a pretty funny vid for a couple of reasons.

Funny? because it's rubbish.

China has a building industrial complex, less destructive than the US version, though obviously has it's down sides.

Infrastructure and housing is over developed in some places and predicted demand has fallen well short, also issues of shoddy construction and corruption within the sector. The neoliberal west has an issue of lack of housing, overpriced housing, homelessness, and failing infrastructure. Of course a perfect world where supply meets demand at the right time would be nice but ya know utopian bla bla

 

[barreness]

Do you have a source for someone in Australia peacefully protesting climate change and going to jail? Bearing in mind I would disagree with this, if this is true.

I am not aware of the asio one, link?

Climate change protesters;
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...in-jail-over-port-of-newcastle-protest-ntwnfb
'anti-protest laws passed by the former NSW Coalition government in 2022'
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-19/westgate-bridge-climate-protest-sentencing-appeal/103604764

Please don't make the argument that it's not a peaceful protest because they stopped traffic/work

ASIO targeting an autistic kid;
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ted-for-an-australian-child-how-did-it-happen

 

[barreness]

And sorry on your first point, I think we are talking about different things.
There is a difference when a government enacts a law, policy, position etc… when they deem it to be in the public interest. Eg COVID.

I think my point is that authoritarian state is a tautology, for the record I have no issue with most of the COVID policy in australia and China's policies were also fine considering the unknowns in the early stages

Compared to a government that enacts a law to preserve their own interests.

In a one party state the interests of preservation of the govt is(almost) the same as the public interest. A rotational two party govt compared to complete govt breakdown, I'd rather a govt than none

 

[Rob R]

Have you seen the cities that China is building? With its infrastructure?
I thought it would be easier to grow when you are already reach…

Easier to build on empty paddocks than through existing cities especially wtih no labour rights, safety or environmental laws.

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[Rob R]

Well we aren’t free to do what we want here… we have rules and laws that restrict our “freedoms”

We do but we actually have far far greater rights to free speech, travel, representation, internet etc. Our ability to protest is far greater than protests jn China that require approval and are only tolerated for some issues. What do you think would happen if thousands decided to voice their complaints about Xi publically?

Human rights in China

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in China with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

www.amnesty.org

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[Rob R]

They vote at local level for a candidate that will represent the CCP. I’m not a fan of this system.

It's good you admit that the CCP being a dictatorship is wrong and the chinese people deserve the right to choose their leadership. Same as we all admit things can be better here.

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[Rob R]

We also put whistleblowers in jail!!!

one or two after a fair trial versus how many million jailed, died suddenly or disappeared

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[nut]

It's good you admit that the CCP being a dictatorship is wrong and the chinese people deserve the right to choose their leadership. Same as we all admit things can be better here.

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If you think Xi is a dictator than you really have no idea on how the Chinese government works.