Asia China's growing influence

[IlovethePies]

It'd be nice to have a major power that just stayed within their borders.

Impossible. There is a global economy. Productions and profits operate across national borders.
No imperialist power can "remain within its borders".
We are currently witnessing the "volcanic eruption of US imperialism" as it now seeks to reverse its economic decline by rediviiding the entire global economy in its own interests, by military means.

China is the main target of US imperialism, because the growth of China, and its advances in certain areas of technology (electic cars and critical minerals processing) are regarded by the US ruling elite as an existential threat to the continued stablity of the US dollar as a recognised global currency.

 

[Seeds]

Impossible. There is a global economy. Productions and profits operate across national borders.
No imperialist power can "remain within its borders".
We are currently witnessing the "volcanic eruption of US imperialism" as it now seeks to reverse its economic decline by rediviiding the entire global economy in its own interests, by military means.

China is the main target of US imperialism, because the growth of China, and its advances in certain areas of technology (electic cars and critical minerals processing) are regarded by the US ruling elite as an existential threat to the continued stablity of the US dollar as a recognised global currency.

So in your view the US is creating an evil world of trade where its consumers can import cheaper goods from overseas (the US is a net importer not exporter) and yet somehow sees china as a threat to ummm...... errrr providing even more cheaper goods into the US???

Whoops.

Dude in your attempt to paint everything in the US as evil you got mixed up between the globalist forces and the isolationist forces in the US. They are polar opposites. Cant think they are both wrong and somehow part of the same unified goal.

Ps. Global trade is good not only because it improves peoples lives by providing them access to new technologies and cheaper products/food/fuel/medicine but because it reduces the incentives for war. Trade leads to less war.

 

[sdfc]

Impossible. There is a global economy. Productions and profits operate across national borders.
No imperialist power can "remain within its borders".
We are currently witnessing the "volcanic eruption of US imperialism" as it now seeks to reverse its economic decline by rediviiding the entire global economy in its own interests, by military means.

China is the main target of US imperialism, because the growth of China, and its advances in certain areas of technology (electic cars and critical minerals processing) are regarded by the US ruling elite as an existential threat to the continued stablity of the US dollar as a recognised global currency.

Trade isn't imperialism. How much do you think your computer would cost if it wasn't for international trade?

China's imperialist.

 

[IlovethePies]

Trade isn't imperialism. How much do you think your computer would cost if it wasn't for international trade?

China's imperialist.

China is not imperialist.
Imperialist nations developed historically during the late 19th century and early 20th century, on the back of a frenzied race for colonies: Britain, France, Germany, the US, Japan.
China was one of the countries partially colonised.

All the financial institutions of the global economy are controlled by the imperialist nations. It is the US and the EU which is freezing Russian assets abroad and stealing them, not vice verca. It is the US and EU applying economic sanctions on China, Russia, Iran (ie all its targets) and not vice verca.

China only developed into the powerful economy it now has because of the globalisation of production in the 1980's which transferred the latest US/European technology to china to take advantage of its cheap labour.

Like all things under capitalism, the consequences of this mad drive for profit were not foreseen by the imperialists themselves, and by establishing the latest manufacturing processes and industrial technique in China, the imperialists created inevitably a giant economy capable of rivalling their own in influence and in advanced technology.

The rise of China, due to the actions of imperialism itself, has created a massive crisis for all the imperialist powers, but especially for the US. The US national debt is reaching the point where confidence in the US state to service this debt will collapse, creating an economic tornado dwarfing Katrina or Milton wihtin the US and the world economy.

Destroying the economic power of China is fast becoming an existential necessity for US imperialism, whatever the consequences.

 

[sdfc]

China is not imperialist.
Imperialist nations developed historically during the late 19th century and early 20th century, on the back of a frenzied race for colonies: Britain, France, Germany, the US, Japan.
China was one of the countries partially colonised.

All the financial institutions of the global economy are controlled by the imperialist nations. It is the US and the EU which is freezing Russian assets abroad and stealing them, not vice verca. It is the US and EU applying economic sanctions on China, Russia, Iran (ie all its targets) and not vice verca.

China only developed into the powerful economy it now has because of the globalisation of production in the 1980's which transferred the latest US/European technology to china to take advantage of its cheap labour.

Like all things under capitalism, the consequences of this mad drive for profit were not foreseen by the imperialists themselves, and by establishing the latest manufacturing processes and industrial technique in China, the imperialists created inevitably a giant economy capable of rivalling their own in influence and in advanced technology.

The rise of China, due to the actions of imperialism itself, has created a massive crisis for all the imperialist powers, but especially for the US. The US national debt is reaching the point where confidence in the US state to service this debt will collapse, creating an economic tornado dwarfing Katrina or Milton wihtin the US and the world economy.

Destroying the economic power of China is fast becoming an existential necessity for US imperialism, whatever the consequences.

China has been imperialist for a couple of thousand years and still is. Just because someone threw a label at it in the 19th century doesn't mean imperialism didn't exist before then.

I'm sure their neighbours want their fishing grounds annexed. Slicing off bits of Bhutan is another stellar non-imperialist move.

 

[IlovethePies]

China has been imperialist for a couple of thousand years and still is. Just because someone threw a label at it in the 19th century doesn't mean imperialism didn't exist before then.

I'm sure their neighbours want their fishing grounds annexed. Slicing off bits of Bhutan is another stellar non-imperialist move.

It depends on how you use the word "imperialist"

If you wish to use it as an epithet for an ancient civilisation based on a pre-capitalist economy with an emperor as the ruling political figure, that is fine, but then it has no scientific content which can illuminate our understanding of the current situation. In other words, it is devoid of any significant meaning.

If however, the word is used in a scientific historical sense, in relation to the development of capitalism (which is our current reality), then it is being used in a rational manner which can actually shed light on the contemporary conditions. It is in this sense that I am using tthe word "imperialist", and in this sense, China is not an imperialist nation. Nor is Russia.

 

[sdfc]

It depends on how you use the word "imperialist"

If you wish to use it as an epithet for an ancient civilisation based on a pre-capitalist economy with an emperor as the ruling political figure, that is fine, but then it has no scientific content which can illuminate our understanding of the current situation.

If however, the word is used in a scientific historical sense, in relation to the development of capitalism (which is our current reality), then it is being used in a rational manner which can actually shed light on the contemporary conditions. It is in this sense that I am using tthe word "imperialist", and in this sense, China is not an imperialist nation. Nor is Russia.

So you're a Leninist and are only ever going to think within that framework.

What's your definition of imperialism? Leaving out any mention of capitalism.

 

[IlovethePies]

So you're a Leninist and are only ever going to think within that framework.

What's your definition of imperialism? Leaving out any mention of capitalism.

Impossible to define imperialism scientifically without referring to capitalism, because imperialism is the final stage of capitalism - in fact, imperialism is the death agony of capitalism.

 

[sdfc]

Impossible to define imperialism scientifically without referring to capitalism, because imperialism is the final stage of capitalism - in fact, imperialism is the death agony of capitalism.

Capitalism is less imperialist than it was in the 19th century.

What are the actions of nations that are identified with imperialism?

 

[IlovethePies]

Capitalism is less imperialist than it was in the 19th century.

What are the actions of nations that are identified with imperialism?

US imperialism is the main imperiaist power. It is now the incendiary factor in global politics because, since 1991 (the liquidation of the Soviet Union) it has been on a rampage in an attempt to restore itself as the global hegemon, and roll back the world to the state that it would have been had the Russian Revolution not occurred: ie a world of unrestrained colonialist domination.

What are its actions since 1991? An unending series of wars.
I will list some:
1991: bombardment of Iraq. Imposition of deadly economic sanctions which led to the deaths of almost 1 million infants in Iraq. Albright declared that it was "all worth it"

Not sure of year: invasion of Somalia

1998: War against Serbia: where according to the NY Times (Thomas Friedman) it was good to "bomb Serbia back into the Stone Age"

2001: Invasion of Afghanistan, leading to the destruction of society in that impoverished country

2003: Invasion of Iraq, based on lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction, leading to at least 1 million more deaths in Iraq and the destruction of an entire society

2011: Bombardment and proxy invasion of Libya

2014: Instigation of Maidan coup in Ukraine to prepare for war against Russia

2022: NATO/US backing proxy war against Russia

2024: US backing Israel in genocide of Palestinians, along with expansion of war into Lebanon, ultimate target Iran.

These are the actions identified with imperialism.
US imperialism is the uncontrolled incendiary factor, but all the NATO powers are likewise fully involved. They have supported each criminal war that the US has launched, and enthusiastically particpated (along, I might add, with Australia_ whether Labor or Liberal government in power).

I hope it is clear from this brief list that neither Russia nor China are invading other countries/bombing them to smithereens/inciting proxy wars.

So no, Russia and China are not imperialist nations - in any scientific understanding of the term.

 

[sdfc]

US imperialism is the main imperiaist power. It is now the incendiary factor in global politics because, since 1991 (the liquidation of the Soviet Union) it has been on a rampage in an attempt to restore itself as the global hegemon, and roll back the world to the state that it would have been had the Russian Revolution not occurred: ie a world of unrestrained colonialist domination.

What are its actions since 1991? An unending series of wars.
I will list some:
1991: bombardment of Iraq. Imposition of deadly economic sanctions which led to the deaths of almost 1 million infants in Iraq. Albright declared that it was "all worth it"

Not sure of year: invasion of Somalia

1998: War against Serbia: where according to the NY Times (Thomas Friedman) it was good to "bomb Serbia back into the Stone Age"

2001: Invasion of Afghanistan, leading to the destruction of society in that impoverished country

2003: Invasion of Iraq, based on lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction, leading to at least 1 million more deaths in Iraq and the destruction of an entire society

2011: Bombardment and proxy invasion of Libya

2014: Instigation of Maidan coup in Ukraine to prepare for war against Russia

2022: NATO/US backing proxy war against Russia

2024: US backing Israel in genocide of Palestinians, along with expansion of war into Lebanon, ultimate target Iran.

These are the actions identified with imperialism.
US imperialism is the uncontrolled incendiary factor, but all the NATO powers are likewise fully involved. They have supported each criminal war that the US has launched, and enthusiastically particpated (along, I might add, with Australia_ whether Labor or Liberal government in power).

I hope it is clear from this brief list that neither Russia nor China are invading other countries/bombing them to smithereens/inciting proxy wars.

So no, Russia and China are not imperialist nations - in any scientific understanding of the term.

No one said the US isn't imperialist. You can go back further than 1991.

The question you are avoiding is, is China and has China been imperialist.

China has been expanding on and off for over 2000 years. It's how it got so big.

Even in recent times, China has reannexed Tibet, claimed sovereignty over one of the world's busiest sea lanes and annexed their weaker neighbours' fishing grounds.

You should explain how that is not imperialist. We can deal with their treatment of Bhutan and their history later.

 

[IlovethePies]

No one said the US isn't imperialist. You can go back further than 1991.

The question you are avoiding is, is China and has China been imperialist.

China has been expanding on and off for over 2000 years. It's how it got so big.

Even in recent times, China has reannexed Tibet, claimed sovereignty over one of the world's busiest sea lanes and annexed their weaker neighbours' fishing grounds.

You should explain how that is not imperialist. We can deal with their treatment of Bhutan and their history later.

I am not avoiding anything. I have stated categorically that neither China nor Russia is imperialist.

The suppression of Tibet by China is indeed real, as of the uighurs. But here we are not talking about the invasion of sovereign nations: Tibet and the Uighur homelands are all within the borders of China.
Imperialism is bound up with invading/colonising/annihilating the populations in other, sovereign countries ie expanding the domination of a national economy beyond its borders.

China and the Russian Federation are simply not doing this.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine, while brutal and murderous in every sense, is not a war of colonial expansionism. It bears no resemblance for example to the Israeli genocide in Gaza, and its subsequent expansion to Lebanon, and soon Iran.

As for China "expanding for 2000 or more years", this is just ahistorical nonsense that I have already responded to. If you want to use the term "imperialism" in a scientific (ie constructive) sense, then you need to refer to the history of the world since the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

WW1 was the turning point:the eruption of WW1 was a war caused by the eruption of imperialism, and the conflict between imperialist powers.

 

[Smeg Head]

Someone doesn't understand the difference between scientific and opinion