Speculation Clayton Oliver [UFA 2030]

[TiAn_]

So you'd rather enforce a 3 way loss?

No, merely that the traded contract can’t be rejiggered to deliver an obscene outcome like with Bowes, where the team that was paid to take the contract didn’t even have to fully wear the contract. If that becomes the norm it just adds another layer of nonsense on top of the whole bin fire that is the salary cap.

It shouldn’t be allowed to happen with FA contracts either. The AFL should be like any other league with a salary cap where the contracts are fixed once they’re signed. If they introduce these new concepts like selling cap space but allow teams to do all sorts of weird crap with contracts in secret, it’s just going make everything more convoluted and promote more outcomes that compromise the integrity of the competition. Ultimately that’s a bad thing.

 

[Tonythetiger]

It makes sense that if a contracted player goes, then they get a new contract with their new club however it would be intuitive that the contract terms have to be exactly the same. To not enforce that opens up too many possibilities to rort the system.

The Bowes thing is funny because in theory he could have renegotiated with Gold Coast to smooth out his final years over an extra couple, although we don't know if Gold Coast were open to that. The fact he did that with Geelong makes his manager the worst negotiator in the world though, because he really should have just held to the original two years or whatever it was and work his arse off then either get a decent contract next or move again.

 

[Footy Smarts]

No, merely that the traded contract can’t be rejiggered to deliver an obscene outcome like with Bowes, where the team that was paid to take the contract didn’t even have to fully wear the contract.

This is nonsense. We didn't just wear his contract we upgraded it!

Why do you think he wanted to sign with us instead of the dozen other clubs that got interested once a first was one the table? We were the only ones willing to commit to him and demonstrate our commitment by giving him 2 extra years on solid money.

 

[TiAn_]

This is nonsense.

At least you warned us immediately before your imminent departure reality:

We didn't just wear his contract we upgraded it!

 

[Footy Smarts]

The Bowes thing is funny because in theory he could have renegotiated with Gold Coast to smooth out his final years over an extra couple, although we don't know if Gold Coast were open to that. The fact he did that with Geelong makes his manager the worst negotiator in the world though, because he really should have just held to the original two years or whatever it was and work his arse off then either get a decent contract next or move again.

Bowes was stuck playing VFL at Gold Coast. There was every chance the club he went to would only really want the pick and he'd be delisted after getting his $1.6m over 2 years while playing VFL.

His manager guaranteed him an extra $600k and ensured the club he went to was committed to him cause you don't sign a guy on a 4 year deal to stick him in the VFL. What do you know he's been in Geelong's best team since arriving and will likely get another solid contract beyond his current one.

 

[Footy Smarts]

At least you warned us immediately before your imminent departure reality:

We did upgrade it. Why the **** do you think Bowes signed it?

 

[Footy Smarts]

I do love the idea that Jack Bowes

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was so committed to get to Geelong that he signed a worse contract than every other club out there were offering though.

 

[TiAn_]

I do love the idea that Jack Bowes was so committed to get to Geelong that he signed a worse contract than every other club out there were offering though.

I’m going to an assume you’re not an actual moron and genuinely respond to this: that’s not the point. The point is if his GC contract was the one he signed at Geelong then GC wouldn’t have had the pressing need to trade him, or pair a first round pick with him. Geelong didn’t have to wear the far less favourable high salary contract that GC had to trade. Geelong renegotiated something far more palatable, and collected a first round pick. It is a preposterous scenario that the AFL should be preventing from occurring. Along with renegotiating FA deals.

 

[markm106]

Apparently he’ll be earning south of 1 million a season soon enough. Say 1.2 - 1.3 million. With the salary cap increases. What would an oppo club cough up? Half?
Just can’t see Melbourne soaking up 6-700k a season for 6 years. Let alone throw in a first rounder.

 

[Toump Ass]

Hearing rumours of a Dayne Beams

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Dayne Beams

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No current season stats available

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15.6

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-type deal whereby Dees fire him and pay him outside the salary cap. Can anyone confirm?

 

[markm106]

Hearing rumours of a Dayne Beams-type deal whereby Dees fire him and pay him outside the salary cap. Can anyone confirm?

Didn’t pies end up paying the lot after a failed attempt at paying outside the cap?

 

[Footy Smarts]

I’m going to an assume you’re not an actual moron and genuinely respond to this

That's nice of you. But you seem convinced Bowes signed a terrible deal he didn't want to sign with Geelong instead of go to one of the other ~10 clubs after him. So I'm not going to make the same assumption of you.

The point is if his GC contract was the one he signed at Geelong then GC wouldn’t have had the pressing need to trade him, or pair a first round pick with him.

Yes they would have. They had to lose someone on big money to fit their big names in. Extending the timeline wouldn't help because all the other big contracts were long-term too let alone adding another $600k to the total.

Geelong didn’t have to wear the far less favourable high salary contract that GC had to trade. Geelong renegotiated something far more palatable.

You clearly know nothing about how the salary cap works.

The AFL lets you shift money between years up to 5% of the cap each year. If Geelong is paying him $2.2m over 4 years it doesn't matter for the purposes of the cap if that is paid as 800, 800, 300, 300 or an even 550 each year because that's far less than what you can shift from year to year in the cap.

Geelong didn't renegotiate with Bowes because of our salary cap. We renegotiated to get him over the line to come to Geelong. We guaranteed him an extra $600k and a long term career. It was Bowes that wanted the new contract and we obliged because clearly it was worth it if he was going to come with a top 10 pick.

 

[Mich0]

Dees havnt even gotten around to spending the Jackson money yet. Let alone the Brayshaw, Harmes, Hibberd and soon to be Gawn, May, Tmac, Joel Smith, Tomlinson, Hunter, Schache, Melksham and Ben Brown

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money.

Why would they be caring about freeing up cap space, let alone paying draft picks to do so with **** all anyone else to even spend it on.

Regardless what it is you would rather be paying $1m for a bloke to play in the VFL hoping he comes good than giving up a first rounder to pay $700k for him to play against you unless you had serious cap issues which Dees don’t.

If anything it wouldn’t surprise me if Dees were to take dumps off other clubs with the amount of cap space we will have.

 

[TiAn_]

That's nice of you. But you seem convinced Bowes signed a terrible deal he didn't want to sign with Geelong instead of go to one of the other ~10 clubs after him. So I'm not going to make the same assumption of you.

JFC, I never said it was a terrible deal for Bowes. I said it was a better deal for Geelong than the one GC traded.

Yes they would have. They had to lose someone on big money to fit their big names in. Extending the timeline wouldn't help because all the other big contracts were long-term too let alone adding another $600k to the total.

Wtf are you even trying to say here? Genuine stupidity to suggest a lower annual salary wouldn’t have been more favourable for GC.

You clearly know nothing about how the salary cap works.

lol

The AFL lets you shift money between years up to 5% of the cap each year. If Geelong is paying him $2.2m over 4 years it doesn't matter for the purposes of the cap if that is paid as 800, 800, 300, 300 or an even 550 each year because that's far less than what you can shift from year to year in the cap.

Putting aside that diabolical description of the salary cap, the annual salaries and whether they are manipulated during the life of the contract actually does matter. The salary cap is supposed to be a equalisation measure, primarily on an annual basis. The 95-105% range on the salary cap shouldn’t be usable to manipulate annual salaries on existing contracts between years. It’s the sort of covert manipulation that is antithetical to the purpose of a salary cap. Particularly if they’re going to have mechanisms like FA with compensation based on contract value and length and the “selling” of cap space, then the practise of renegotiating existing contracts to manipulate annual salary cap space needs to be eliminated or much more heavily regulated, or we’re going to see even more garbage transactions than Geelong getting a first round pick to take on an $850k per annum contract but being able to immediately lop $200k per annum off and punt it into the future.

Geelong didn't renegotiate with Bowes because of our salary cap. We renegotiated to get him over the line to come to Geelong. We guaranteed him an extra $600k and a long term career. It was Bowes that wanted the new contract and we obliged because clearly it was worth it if he was going to come with a top 10 pick.

And they should have been required to pay the $850k per season two year contract that was traded to them, plus whatever else they offered after that. It’s really simple.

 

[madjoe]

Dees havnt even gotten around to spending the Jackson money yet. Let alone the Brayshaw, Harmes, Hibberd and soon to be Gawn, May, Tmac, Joel Smith, Tomlinson, Hunter, Schache, Melksham and Ben Brown money.

Why would they be caring about freeing up cap space, let alone paying draft picks to do so with **** all anyone else to even spend it on.

Regardless what it is you would rather be paying $1m for a bloke to play in the VFL hoping he comes good than giving up a first rounder to pay $700k for him to play against you unless you had serious cap issues which Dees don’t.

If anything it wouldn’t surprise me if Dees were to take dumps off other clubs with the amount of cap space we will have.

You guys are still paying grundy, and Brayshaw if anything you guys are paying brayshaw more to clear his salary for the years to come .


95 percent of the cap is roughly 1 million less than the cap if that makes sense? that's why clubs at the bottom end only really get one big signing each trade period or two good b graders. even with the uptick in salary.

 

[whatwhatsaywhat]

You guys are still paying grundy, and Brayshaw if anything you guys are paying brayshaw more to clear his salary for the years to come .


95 percent of the cap is roughly 1 million less than the cap if that makes sense? that's why clubs at the bottom end only really get one big signing each trade period or two good b graders. even with the uptick in salary.

incorrect

the whole benefit of getting grundy off the list is that his entire wage - or the portion the pies aren't paying - was off our books

 

[Mich0]

You guys are still paying grundy, and Brayshaw if anything you guys are paying brayshaw more to clear his salary for the years to come .


95 percent of the cap is roughly 1 million less than the cap if that makes sense? that's why clubs at the bottom end only really get one big signing each trade period or two good b graders. even with the uptick in salary.

We are not paying a cent for Grundy and most of Brayshaws coin is now outside the cap.

Then there’s the other 10 or so odd players I mentioned.

Last thing Dees need right now is cap relief and a reduced draft hand. Its more likely the other way round.

 

[Crow till I die]

If the Dees would pay say $250K of his contract, as a crows fan, I would be ok giving up our 2nd this year and a F2 for him..if they were to pay a bit more, maybe a F1 (as long as our club did its due diligence on him and believed they were getting a player that could still get back to near his very best)

 

[markm106]

The Oliver articles are interesting. Same articles talk about how he seems gone and will never get back to his best and then say which midfields he can help etc. make up your mind.

 

[OccamsRazorRay]

Apparently he’ll be earning south of 1 million a season soon enough. Say 1.2 - 1.3 million. With the salary cap increases. What would an oppo club cough up? Half?
Just can’t see Melbourne soaking up 6-700k a season for 6 years. Let alone throw in a first rounder.

As opposed to soaking up 1.2-1.3M a year? Ouch. Considering Crows were putting up a 10yr offer for Gulden I'd say we could absorb a fair bit of it...

 

[OccamsRazorRay]

If the Dees would pay say $250K of his contract, as a crows fan, I would be ok giving up our 2nd this year and a F2 for him..if they were to pay a bit more, maybe a F1 (as long as our club did its due diligence on him and believed they were getting a player that could still get back to near his very best)

I think you need to use the Treloar trade as a bit of a reference point, you're all over the shop.

His salary will be going up to 1.2-1.3m per year with the new cap increases. If Dees were only paying $250K that would essentially be us taking on a $1m per contract. If that was the case we'd be ASKING the Dees for a pick, not giving one up, you're way off

 

[markm106]

As opposed to soaking up 1.2-1.3M a year? Ouch. Considering Crows were putting up a 10yr offer for Gulden I'd say we could absorb a fair bit of it...

I guess a club is only taking him on with the belief he’ll get back to somewhere near his best. At this point he isn’t remotely near it. I would say if he is getting back to near his best Melbourne would be happy to wear the contract if he is behaving etc.
if anyone believes this is now the best he’ll be sure we’d pay more to see him go. But realistically no one is taking him on if they think this is now him.

 

[Crow till I die]

I think you need to use the Treloar trade as a bit of a reference point, you're all over the shop.

His salary will be going up to 1.2-1.3m per year with the new cap increases. If Dees were only paying $250K that would essentially be us taking on a $1m per contract. If that was the case we'd be ASKING the Dees for a pick, not giving one up, you're way off

With the new EBA, that $1mil per year is akin to $800K per year. If we are getting a player - albeit with some issues, that 'could' be a premier midfielder still, doesn't seem too unreasonable to me if they pay some of the way that we gave up some draft capital. I am only quarantining this years 1st from any trade if I am the crows as we still should be drafting a top young mid too

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

If the Dees would pay say $250K of his contract, as a crows fan, I would be ok giving up our 2nd this year and a F2 for him..if they were to pay a bit more, maybe a F1 (as long as our club did its due diligence on him and believed they were getting a player that could still get back to near his very best)

should not be giving up a first in anyway, even 2 second rounders is too much

 

[Mutineer]

With the new EBA, that $1mil per year is akin to $800K per year. If we are getting a player - albeit with some issues, that 'could' be a premier midfielder still, doesn't seem too unreasonable to me if they pay some of the way that we gave up some draft capital. I am only quarantining this years 1st from any trade if I am the crows as we still should be drafting a top young mid too

"Some" issues?