News Collingwood Members Forum (November 5th).

[Quicky]

We can't afford a ruck coach, what bollocks. How on Earth do we have 2 developing rucks and another from overseas who's new to the game, but we don't have a ruck coach. How ridiculous. Who are they learning off?

Particularly when you think we struggled so badly at centre clearances this year and the stats show Grundy was ordinary in the ruck at the centre bounce. Improving that aspect of game seems an easy way to improve the team.

 

[Quicky]

I wouldn't be able to put a number to it, no idea what his current salary is, nor our current rucks', or what the top rucks in the league are paid. I would have no issue getting him in our top 5 highest salaries per year though, if our rucks really fail to deliver and our midfield looks ready to contend.



I'm just not sure how he does get a game in a forward line where we need at least 2 talls + a forward/ruck or 1 tall and 1 forward-ruck, with Elliott, Fasolo and Howe in the mix our of all of our mids one spot is already taken for rotations. Injuries can happen, improvement and opportunity may or may not happen, but currently he's sitting outside our best 22 for mine.



I would be surprised if the club exited players like Thomas or Wellingham simply because of upcoming interchange caps and an endurance based approach. I think the endurance thing has more to do with the training and fitness program. It's good to know we've done that and good to know we have players like Sidebottom who perform very strongly in that department but I'm not sure it's something that will be a point of difference for us vs other clubs. We probably tend to make more efforts than other teams by chasing and tackling and playing a pressure-based contested style so naturally interchange cap hurt us and we're just playing catch up.

There's two approaches to the ruck issue. Develop the player we have or replace the player we have. I think if we put a bit of thought into developing Grundy at the centre bounce, I'd expect him to respond. A dedicated ruck coach would be a start.

Out of interest, would you pick Witts or Grundy as your first choice ruckman?

 

[Black_White]

We cannot afford a ruck coach because we don't want to pay the tax.
Meanwhile, Hawthorn, not happily, pay the tax and get the best they can.
Results speak for themselves.
Pay the tax Eddie and give us the best chance at achieving what a footy club is created to achieve.

 

[Vicky Park]

I must say I don't understand this issue of not paying the tax. Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the tax, surely our development needs come before a concern with paying extra $$$.

 

[Vankri]

There's two approaches to the ruck issue. Develop the player we have or replace the player we have. I think if we put a bit of thought into developing Grundy at the centre bounce, I'd expect him to respond. A dedicated ruck coach would be a start.

Out of interest, would you pick Witts or Grundy as your first choice ruckman?

Well say we do have a ruck coach and I'm in charge, I would tailor Grundy's weights program and his training to focus on body work and timing at centre bounce. I would give him the no1 spot for R1 2016 because on recent and exposed form he is the better choice, and help him by having Moore ruck 20% of the game (timing an tap work in the forward line looked pretty natural to him at the end of last year).

However the opportunity will arise for Witts to get that position back: if Grundy needs a rest after a few games, if he gets injured, or if he underperforms and Witts smashes it in the VFL.

Overall I think both have shown really impressive things for their age: Grundy with his work around the ground, his first year where he was utilising his leap really well and his constant efforts, Witts with his end of 2014, natural talent at the ruck contest and his neat kicking. But there's a flip side of the coin for both: Grundy's actual ruck work and his disposal efficiency, and Witts and his lack of contested marking ability and overall presence around the ground.

 

[Quicky]

Well say we do have a ruck coach and I'm in charge, I would tailor Grundy's weights program and his training to focus on body work and timing at centre bounce. I would give him the no1 spot for R1 2016 because on recent and exposed form he is the better choice, and help him by having Moore ruck 20% of the game (timing an tap work in the forward line looked pretty natural to him at the end of last year).

However the opportunity will arise for Witts to get that position back: if Grundy needs a rest after a few games, if he gets injured, or if he underperforms and Witts smashes it in the VFL.

Overall I think both have shown really impressive things for their age: Grundy with his work around the ground, his first year where he was utilising his leap really well and his constant efforts, Witts with his end of 2014, natural talent at the ruck contest and his neat kicking. But there's a flip side of the coin for both: Grundy's actual ruck work and his disposal efficiency, and Witts and his lack of contested marking ability and overall presence around the ground.

Rendell seems to be the guy we are getting to do the ruck coaching duties. I would have him stick to Grundy and Witts working on centre bounces all preseason.

I'm surprised you would pick Grundy over Witts though given your comments on our centre bounce ruck work. I reckon Witts is more advanced in his tap work, whereas Grundy better at the second efforts (usually after mucking up the tap work) in that centre bounce situation. You have me questioning who should be our number one.

 

[Vankri]

Rendell seems to be the guy we are getting to do the ruck coaching duties. I would have him stick to Grundy and Witts working on centre bounces all preseason.

I'm surprised you would pick Grundy over Witts though given your comments on our centre bounce ruck work. I reckon Witts is more advanced in his tap work, whereas Grundy better at the second efforts (usually after mucking up the tap work) in that centre bounce situation. You have me questioning who should be our number one.

I'm more open to the idea of Witts being no.1 over Grundy than most on this forum, and I'm also more open than most to the prospect of Grundy not delivering on promise (promise being eventually becoming a top 2-3 ruck in the league) because of his current limitation in actual ruckwork, but I can't consider Witts no.1 for R1 2016, as that would be rewarding him on performances from 18 months ago. Last year Witts didn't have a great impact on any given game, and conversely had plenty of poor performances.

At this stage playing Witts first would send the wrong message to the playing group – unless something very convincing happens during pre-season – regardless of how much we need his attributes, where I agree with you he is more advanced than Grundy on. Like I said, I would put a massive focus on Grundy's pre-season on centre bounces and give him a chance first to show whether he's progressed there.

 

[TradeDraft]

I'm more open to the idea of Witts being no.1 over Grundy than most on this forum, and I'm also more open than most to the prospect of Grundy not delivering on promise (promise being eventually becoming a top 2-3 ruck in the league) because of his current limitation in actual ruckwork, but I can't consider Witts no.1 for R1 2016, as that would be rewarding him on performances from 18 months ago. Last year Witts didn't have a great impact on any given game, and conversely had plenty of poor performances.

At this stage playing Witts first would send the wrong message to the playing group – unless something very convincing happens during pre-season – regardless of how much we need his attributes, where I agree with you he is more advanced than Grundy on. Like I said, I would put a massive focus on Grundy's pre-season on centre bounces and give him a chance first to show whether he's progressed there.

So you are saying Grundy was a 1 of the Big Reason we Fell Off in the 2nd Half of the Season as he was Getting Desroyed in the Ruck?

So you would trade Grundy before Witts?

 

[Jasper84]

So you are saying Grundy was a 1 of the Big Reason we Fell Off in the 2nd Half of the Season as he was Getting Desroyed in the Ruck?

So you would trade Grundy before Witts?

Vintage TD post.

 

[MyManLynch]

So you are saying Grundy was a 1 of the Big Reason we Fell Off in the 2nd Half of the Season as he was Getting Desroyed in the Ruck?

So you would trade Grundy before Witts?

We shouldn't be trading either of them.

 

[Vankri]

So you are saying Grundy was a 1 of the Big Reason we Fell Off in the 2nd Half of the Season as he was Getting Desroyed in the Ruck?

So you would trade Grundy before Witts?

No actually our worst period in terms of consecutive runs of goals conceded was between R5-R9 and Grundy and Witts were sharing duties in all but one of those games. In the second part of the year I think Grundy had poor games against WCE and Melbourne but so did Witts. So as we all established during the season, Grundy has his best games when Witts isn't playing and Witts has his best games when Grundy isn't playing (see end of 2014). Both #1 rucks, both unable to impact the game forward if they're not #1.

I would say though that Grundy has escaped scrutiny in the supporter base for that inability at centre bounce. Even Bucks, in the members forum when he was commenting on that staggering difference between being #18 in the competition in centre clearance differential and #2 in the competition in stoppages around the ground (throw ins, ball ups) said "Young rucks, maybe" and then went on to elaborate on how Grundy is still young. Bit of an admission there if you read between the lines.

In terms of trading it's too hypothetical. This year I would have been OK trading Witts and keeping Grundy because of their respective seasons, pick at which they were drafted and scope for improvement, and the possibility of getting Treloar for Pick 7 + Witts (/Witts compensation) which is better than what we ultimately paid. In the future I don't know, as me again at the end of the 2016 season!

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I must say I don't understand this issue of not paying the tax. Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the tax, surely our development needs come before a concern with paying extra $$$.

I can't find any quote where Eddie said we weren't employing a ruck coach because of the equlisation tax
Does anyone have it?

 

[DERKADERRR]

So you are saying Grundy was a 1 of the Big Reason we Fell Off in the 2nd Half of the Season as he was Getting Desroyed in the Ruck?

So you would trade Grundy before Witts?

Nah he's saying that Grundy should be thrown into an active volcano.

 

[BigEvilBastard]

So you are saying Grundy was a 1 of the Big Reason we Fell Off in the 2nd Half of the Season as he was Getting Desroyed in the Ruck?

So you would trade Grundy before Witts?

Why would we be trading Grundy OR Witts, and how?

I would be playing playing Grundy over Witts, but anything can happen during the season though, in the second part of the season we might be including Cox into the equation as well. All three won't be playing together but there may be times where a combination of 2 out of the three might be needed

 

[Anzacday]

I can't find any quote where Eddie said we weren't employing a ruck coach because of the equalisation tax
Does anyone have it?

Not sure he singled out the ruck coach.
I do recall the coaches being a concern and mentioned though.

 

[BigEvilBastard]

Not sure he singled out the ruck coach.
I do recall the coaches being a concern and mentioned though.

I'm the same, I can't recall the ruck being singled out, but rather a general coaches/whole dept type comment, it was around the time Matty Lappin left and Steve Grace was appointed I think, as well as the talk of Brenton Sanderson when he got the arse out of Adelaide.

 

[76woodenspooners]

We cannot afford a ruck coach because we don't want to pay the tax.
Meanwhile, Hawthorn, not happily, pay the tax and get the best they can.
Results speak for themselves.
Pay the tax Eddie and give us the best chance at achieving what a footy club is created to achieve.

(1) We do pay the tax. We pay a lot of tax (as was revealed on the night)

(2) The whole "Hawthorn do blah, therefore we should do blah" is getting really tiresome. It was especially prevalent on the night. Buckley made the great point that we're not going to overtake Hawthorn by following them.

 

[MagpieJoel]

I been told there is a long waiting list to be a AFL Member

For for full membership. However silver membership provides most of the benefits.

 

[left at home]

matt Rendell was a very ruckman in his day, so happy for him to continue in that role even part time,
also witts is better in the centre square than grundy but grundy is better than witts at this stage around the ground
lm hoping with the sub gone we can play both in the team

 

[ksardog]

I must say I don't understand this issue of not paying the tax. Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the tax, surely our development needs come before a concern with paying extra $$$.

Deflection is a wonderful thing

 

[Apex36]

We can't afford a ruck coach, what bollocks. How on Earth do we have 2 developing rucks and another from overseas who's new to the game, but we don't have a ruck coach. How ridiculous. Who are they learning off?

Rocca and Rendell have been doing the ruck coach duties this year. I don't think that it's so much that we can't afford a full time ruck coach, rather than we haven't found someone to take the job who's worth breaking the spending cap on the football department. From the sounds of it we were looking at bringing Moore back in last year, but the AFL scuppered that by determining that his wage would be placed under the salary cap since Darcy was drafted by us. We also asked Monkhorst but he's apparently happy at the Hawks. It would have been nice for Hudson to stay on, but he was lured back north by the Lions.

I assume that if we can find someone good enough the club will just pay the tax.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

I imagine some of the resentment here is from people who went to the night and felt it wasn't entertaining enough for the trip. But for me watching on the stream and loving the list management / game plan stuff, there were some really interesting things said or implied.

In terms of players:
- Bucks mentioned White wasn't "up to the standards of the playing group" during that period around the Melbourne game where a lot of us were puzzled he wasn't picked. Didn't elaborate on what that was related to, but it could be anything from lack of effort at training to off field issues.
- Bucks talked about Broomhead as a smart, speedy player for the "forward half". For those looking at our half forward/crumbing player it seems the coaches see Broomhead in that role. From one hand I can see how that frees up a bit of space in our midfield but to me Broomhead is still best utilised on a wing vs on the forward line.
- Bucks praised Fasolo first hand as a player who took the next step forward. For those of us arguing that way in the Fasolo thread that's nice to hear the club agrees.
- Hine mentioned Witts went to Bucks' office and mentioned he doesn't want to be traded and wants to play no1. Reading between the lines, it sounds like we were ready to recruit Kreuzer and offload Witts to get Treloar for pick 7+Witts (or Witts compensation, I presume). I believe we would have been better off in theory, but in practice it's good to have very competitive and motivated players. The Witts vs Grundy battle will be massive next year.

In terms of game plan, Bucks gave a few really interesting stats:
- Score from opposition turnovers / score conceded on our turnovers Against non-finalists we were second best in the comp, against finalists we were 16th. More specifically it seems we were 'OK' against the top 4 but our worst was against those 5-8 sides (Richmond, WB, Adelaide, North).
- Score from opposition kick ins / score conceded on our kick ins: we were 18th in the comp... Reflects very poorly on our structures. We all know kick ins is a massive issue for us, but conversely we should at least be better at scoring from the opposition considering we're a pressure side. Our forward half pressure wasn't good enough, and to me that might be because we spent most of the year playing two ruckmen.
- Centre Bounces vs ball-ups and throw ins: We were 18th in the comp for centre clearances differentials... But in around the ball stoppages we were 2nd in the comp. That's an unbelievable difference. I've been complaining about Grundy's work at centre clearance vs his work at throw in/ball up all year, he just doesn't have the timing and body work at centre bounce. Just seems that the impression that we suck at centre clearance is not just an impression, and it's really damaging because it restrains us from gaining momentum (after we score a goal, we're unable to pressure the opposition defence with a centre clearance win) and gives the opposition a free run at momentum gain (remember those run of goals in a row during the season?).
- The team seems to rely on a formula they summarise as transition game and relates to offensive scoring vs defensive scoring (not sure of the exact formula but it's got to do with scoring from turnovers vs defending your own similar to the stat above) with Hawks ranking first at +7%, followed by WCE +6%, WB +3.5%, Sydney +3 and we're 5th in the comp with +1,9%. Our aim is to become the best at it by defending our turnovers better and scoring from the opposition's, with the main way to get there being to "maintain efficiency" in transition and "maintaing shape", seems like we lose disposal efficiency in transition and we don't provide outside support getting too sucked in the contest.
- Based on the above, stop/play situations and zoning (centre clearances, kick ins) and transition efficiency will be the focus of the pre-season. I expect us to try and copy the WCE style of play in that area.

Some really interesting discussion points in there.

Brodie has nothing to stress about

 

[76woodenspooners]

I must say I don't understand this issue of not paying the tax. Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the tax, surely our development needs come before a concern with paying extra $$$.

I believe some folks are concerned that their precious membership $$$ might be going towards proping up weak clubs.

It was raised as a big concern at the AGM a few years back.

Pert was at pains to point out last week that membership $$$ stay in the club, the tax is applied by withholding distributions from the broadcasting rights.

But still, we lost 14000 members this year, so it could be a contributing factor.

 

[NT.Thunder]

I believe some folks are concerned that their precious membership $$$ might be going towards proping up weak clubs.

It was raised as a big concern at the AGM a few years back.

Pert was at pains to point out last week that membership $$$ stay in the club, the tax is applied by withholding distributions from the broadcasting rights.

But still, we lost 14000 members this year, so it could be a contributing factor.

Things are tough in many industries at the moment and next year I don't see much improvement so I imagine many are really watching their coin.

I'd be interested to see the membership movement from all clubs +/- from previous seasons.

 

[Smoky]

I believe some folks are concerned that their precious membership $$$ might be going towards proping up weak clubs.

It was raised as a big concern at the AGM a few years back.

Pert was at pains to point out last week that membership $$$ stay in the club, the tax is applied by withholding distributions from the broadcasting rights.

But still, we lost 14000 members this year, so it could be a contributing factor.

My dad was a member since 1960 and passed this year. Kinda bit disrespectful to call my mum and hassle her as to why they hadn't re-signed up for a membership this year.

14,000 dropped off hey?

Hows about paying some real respect to your members once they reach a milestone like 50 years???

Oh well, too late in this case... sorry he didn't sign up again this year Gary,,,

(Now you've only got 13,999 to hassle as to why the slack pricks didn''t re-sign.)



Usually not a negative poster,,, but f^^^ me,,, talk about hassling people. Poor form Gary.


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