Autopsy Collingwood: Where to from here?

[doppleganger]

And now we are entering another season with no one even looking remotely close to pushing those vets out

That is and should be the concern for pies fans especially when the youth are still struggling to push out role players like Markov

??

In 2024, Pies had 10 players play more than 20 games and only 2 were over 30.

Markov isn't even on the 2025 main list.

The Pies had less of the 2018 PF team on the 2024 list than the Tigers did.

In 23-24 it has been J. Daicos x 2, N.Daicos x 2, Cameron and Mitchell with top5 best and fairest finishes who weren't part of the 2018 PF team. Supported by Sidey, Crisp and Pendles who just keep on keeping on (although Pendles dropped in 23-24 BnF after finishing top 3 14 times from 2007 to 2022, he was "only" 5th and 6th).

Pies core u30 players heading into 2025 provided below. A pretty balanced group with strong representation across all the ground and 8 AA squad players from 2022-24, noting only 2 were part of the 2018 PF team.

Defense - Moore, Maynard, Quaynor, Houston
Mids - Cameron, Daicos x2, DeGoey, Perryman, Lipinski
Forwards - McStay, McReery, Schultz, Hill

A nice strong senior core to do the heavy lifting, with kids development supported by quality veterans.

At Richmond it has been same old blokes finishing top5 in 23-24 BnF - Rioli x2, Vlaustin x2, D.Martin, Nankervis, Broad, Bolton x2, Baker. The only new player to squeeze into the top5 of their BnF that wasn't part of 2018 peak Richmond team has been Taranto. And now they head into 2025 having to replace half of em.

Pies have been regenerating and have a new quality core, Richmond have a bunch of kids and veterans but forgot you need a senior core to win games of footy.

 

[Arr0w]

??

In 2024, Pies had 10 players play more than 20 games and only 2 were over 30.

Markov isn't even on the 2025 main list.

The Pies had less of the 2018 PF team on the 2024 list than the Tigers did.

In 23-24 it has been J. Daicos x 2, N.Daicos x 2, Cameron and Mitchell with top5 best and fairest finishes who weren't part of the 2018 PF team. Supported by Sidey, Crisp and Pendles who just keep on keeping on (although Pendles dropped in 23-24 BnF after finishing top 3 14 times from 2007 to 2022, he was "only" 5th and 6th).

Pies core u30 players heading into 2025 provided below. A pretty balanced group with strong representation across all the ground and 8 AA squad players from 2022-24, noting only 2 were part of the 2018 PF team.

Defense - Moore, Maynard, Quaynor, Houston
Mids - Cameron, Daicos x2, DeGoey, Perryman, Lipinski
Forwards - McStay, McReery, Schultz, Hill

A nice strong senior core to do the heavy lifting, with kids development supported by quality veterans.

At Richmond it has been same old blokes finishing top5 in 23-24 BnF - Rioli x2, Vlaustin x2, D.Martin, Nankervis, Broad, Bolton x2, Baker. The only new player to squeeze into the top5 of their BnF that wasn't part of 2018 peak Richmond team has been Taranto. And now they head into 2025 having to replace half of em.

Pies have been regenerating and have a new quality core, Richmond have a bunch of kids and veterans but forgot you need a senior core to win games of footy.

Not sure why you would be using 20 games as the cut off point, but it was 4 players at 30+(Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Crisp, WHE) that played 20 or more games.

Other players 30+ like Howe, Cox, Elliott, Mihocek, Mitchell, would likely have played more games if not injured, their unavailability exposed the level of talent in your youth, which contributed to your finishing position

By about half way through next year, you will have 12 players at 30+ and while not all will deteriorate in output and or depart, at least 10 would be selected each week if fit in 2025

 

[adammania9]

Pies have no youth outside of Daicos. VFL team gets blown off the park every week* and they've gone all in on bringing in more senior players. Regardless of what happens in 2025 the cliff will hit them quickly.

Very consistent with the last 15 years of VFL results. Would you like to know what our AFL side has gotten up to in the same 15 years?

 

[adammania9]

Agreed, I think his best is largely underrated

Perryman, similarly underrated but didn't cost draft capital. I'd play him as a midfielder

Houston was a good pick up and better than what they had last year in Markov, Quaynor, and Noble, but was it really a need for what they paid

Undoubtedly - Noble was contracted - granted - but he wanted out and he and Richards miraculously put us in the position of dealing with Port and GC already. You aren't going to turn down the opportunity to upgrade Noble whom wants out to Dan Houston, who is instantly our second best player after Nick Daicos. Quaynor is a proficient shut down defender but he isn't an elite rebounder. He also had an ordinary year. We all love Markov but he's apart of the group of players that played well above themselves at the right time in a premiership year. Trading Noble and not acquiring Houston - the difference to our best side is stark given we are trying to contend again.

Regarding your previous post about Perryman and Houston setting back the rebuild - that's disputable. They are 26 and 27 years old and will feature in our best sides for several years. They'll cushion the blow of losing so many 32+ year olds down the line and prevent a catastrophic downfall that other clubs have experienced and seriously struggled to get out of. Perryman came at no trade cost, and Houston effectively cost us Noble, a mid-draft downgrade and a future first which may be used on F/S McGuane anyway.

 

[Arr0w]

Undoubtedly - Noble was contracted - granted - but he wanted out and he and Richards miraculously put us in the position of dealing with Port and GC already. You aren't going to turn down the opportunity to upgrade Noble whom wants out to Dan Houston, who is instantly our second best player after Nick Daicos. Quaynor is a proficient shut down defender but he isn't an elite rebounder. He also had an ordinary year. We all love Markov but he's apart of the group of players that played well above themselves at the right time in a premiership year. Trading Noble and not acquiring Houston - the difference to our best side is stark given we are trying to contend again.

Regarding your previous post about Perryman and Houston setting back the rebuild - that's disputable. They are 26 and 27 years old and will feature in our best sides for several years. They'll cushion the blow of losing so many 32+ year olds down the line and prevent a catastrophic downfall that other clubs have experienced and seriously struggled to get out of. Perryman came at no trade cost, and Houston effectively cost us Noble, a mid-draft downgrade and a future first which may be used on F/S McGuane anyway.

I don't see Houston and Perryman setting back your rejuvenation, it's a culmination of list management decisions over the last 2 years that could have that impact

As I stated previously, it's understandable that you are rolling the dice one more time

 

[doppleganger]

Undoubtedly - Noble was contracted - granted - but he wanted out and he and Richards miraculously put us in the position of dealing with Port and GC already. You aren't going to turn down the opportunity to upgrade Noble whom wants out to Dan Houston, who is instantly our second best player after Nick Daicos. Quaynor is a proficient shut down defender but he isn't an elite rebounder. He also had an ordinary year. We all love Markov but he's apart of the group of players that played well above themselves at the right time in a premiership year. Trading Noble and not acquiring Houston - the difference to our best side is stark given we are trying to contend again.

Not sure about the bolded. It is great to add a quality player, but still think DeGoey/Moore are first in line after Naicos.

Re italics, we need to improve the team if we want to win a premiership, simply hoping a kid steps up to fill Noble's role wouldn't improve the team.

Regarding your previous post about Perryman and Houston setting back the rebuild - that's disputable. They are 26 and 27 years old and will feature in our best sides for several years. They'll cushion the blow of losing so many 32+ year olds down the line and prevent a catastrophic downfall that other clubs have experienced and seriously struggled to get out of. Perryman came at no trade cost, and Houston effectively cost us Noble, a mid-draft downgrade and a future first which may be used on F/S McGuane anyway.

Houston was younger than Noble.
Adding 26/27 year olds to the list is hardly forgoing your future. They make an immediate impact and you get the peak football years of players proven to be quality AFL level players.

Or you go to the draft, develop a kid for a few years just to hope they can be as good as Houston but the reality is most won't be.

And in this draft we have gone key position, knowing that we most likely won't see much return from them for a few years, and hence grabbing 30 year old Membrey to immediately improve the 2025 list depth.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not sure about the bolded. It is great to add a quality player, but still think DeGoey/Moore are first in line after Naicos.

Re italics, we need to improve the team if we want to win a premiership, simply hoping a kid steps up to fill Noble's role wouldn't improve the team.

Houston was younger than Noble.
Adding 26/27 year olds to the list is hardly forgoing your future. They make an immediate impact and you get the peak football years of players proven to be quality AFL level players.

Or you go to the draft, develop a kid for a few years just to hope they can be as good as Houston but the reality is most won't be.

And in this draft we have gone key position, knowing that we most likely won't see much return from them for a few years, and hence grabbing 30 year old Membrey to immediately improve the 2025 list depth.

JDG is a big one.

If he can work through his injuries and have a 2023 type season I think you guys will contend. If we assume Mitchell is cooked, there just isn't enough support and complimentary qualities in midfield for Daicos and Pendles otherwise.

De Goey can also be damaging up forward. He seems to be a bit of a barometer for the Pies.

 

[doppleganger]

JDG is a big one.

If he can work through his injuries and have a 2023 type season I think you guys will contend. If we assume Mitchell is cooked, there just isn't enough support and complimentary qualities in midfield for Daicos and Pendles otherwise.

De Goey can also be damaging up forward. He seems to be a bit of a barometer for the Pies.

Yep, JDG is def the barometer. In 2024 he was well below his best and the team was significantly poorer as a result.

It was a combination of injuries and just not working hard enough without the ball.

Hope we do a 50/50 type forward midfield split for JDG to manage him. Give some midfield time to McReery, Perryman, Allen.

If Titch gets himself fit can still influence, he was huge in 2023, but yes it is more of a bonus with him.

 

[Pistol Night]

Yep, JDG is def the barometer. In 2024 he was well below his best and the team was significantly poorer as a result.

It was a combination of injuries and just not working hard enough without the ball.

Hope we do a 50/50 type forward midfield split for JDG to manage him. Give some midfield time to McReery, Perryman, Allen.

If Titch gets himself fit can still influence, he was huge in 2023, but yes it is more of a bonus with him.

DeGoey 2023 prelim mode is needed

 

[doppleganger]

DeGoey 2023 prelim mode is needed

Or DeGoey 2018 prelim mode.

 

[Pistol Night]

Or DeGoey 2018 prelim mode.

Just need his groins to survive the home and away and strip club seasons before September