Play Nice Derailed, (The Place to Continue Off-Topic Discussion)

[doofdoof]

No need, your position has been made.

Good to see you read all my detailed and balanced comments in this thread.

 

[Maggie5]

Good to see you read all my detailed and balanced comments in this thread.

Some! I have always loved skipping.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

I have always loved skipping.

Me too

Faster than a walk, more fun than running

 

[Maggie5]

Me too

Faster than a walk, more fun than running

How fast can you do it backwards though, with both feet in the air?

 

[jmac70]

The Yes campaign never detailed the advisory committee's structure, membership and powers, and naturally in the absence of certainty, many people voted No. I think there is also an element of the electorate frustrated by the cost of living and their powerlessness to control rising costs and prices who took the opportunity to use this as a protest vote, despite this issue being unrelated to the referendum.

The No campaigners were far more vocal and influential than the Yes campaigners. Albanese can blame lack of partisan support but I think he also needs to accept responsibility for a poorly run campaign. The result really is a bit of a disaster for the ALP and for indigenous people faced with the stark reality that 60% of Australians voted against giving constitutional recognition to their right to an advisory role in shaping policy and programs which affect their welfare.

I never really understood the need for detail arguments. For me, the Voice referendum was about recognising First Australians in the constitution. The whole advisory group thing doesn’t seem that big a deal.

Let’s say the Labor government decide to progress with a treaty. There will be nothing stopping them from forming an Indigenous advisory group to work on the details.

 

[whiskeytown]

Sorry, your Touché missed the mark.

Perhaps do some homework?

Goodes set up the Goodes-O'Loughlin Foundation, Langton does a lot of the community having established new courses of study at universities, ensuring the inclusion of Indigenous students and Indigenous knowledge in education, as does Burney who not only worked as a teacher in the the community but most of her career before politics se has spent bettering the lives of aboriginals.

Also haven't really seen the background of the other two so can't comment on them.

But you’re saying price, Mundine and Thorpe have on a contrary not done work in communities?

Righto

 

[gouki88]

 

[NMBB]

Symbolism is powerful sr, we've squandered a great opportunity. A complicated issue like this is difficult to reduce to "catchy soundbites" but surely a better job could have been done to simplify and streamline the messaging. I'll just point to the "No" camp to illustrate my point.

Australia is a fair and magnificent country. Being an optimist I see goodness in most people. This wasn't the hard sell that most are making it out to be in my view. We soldier on, onwards and upwards.

P.S: My little neck of the woods lived up to its "left leaning progressive hippie" reputation.

View attachment 1831512

May have been preferable to have the referendum solely about recognising Indigenous people as the first people to inhabit this continent. Separately, legislate for a voice/ mechanism to improve outcomes for indigenous people.

Generations of public servants, Commissions, whatever other bodies should be condemned for what they have failed to achieve.

 

[jmac70]

May have been preferable to have the referendum solely about recognising Indigenous people as the first people to inhabit this continent. Separately, legislate for a voice/ mechanism to improve outcomes for indigenous people.

Generations of public servants, Commissions, whatever other bodies should be condemned for what they have failed to achieve.

What makes you think that would have had a better chance?

 

[Maggie5]

But you’re saying price, Mundine and Thorpe have on a contrary not done work in communities?

Righto

No, that is your tit-for-tat.

Anyway the Vote No to division worked as we can now look forward to what the No group is going to propose to better the life of Aboriginal communities and still allow us to keep titles to our properties. (The land grab really had me worried).

 

[jmac70]

No, that is your tit-for-tat.

Anyway the Vote No to division worked as we can now look forward to what the No group is going to propose to better the life of Aboriginal communities and still allow us to keep titles to our properties. (The land grab really had me worried).

Dutton will continue to oppose any reforms around Indigenous outcomes. He will see it now as his chance to win the next election.

 

[NMBB]

What makes you think that would have had a better chance?

IF the voice proved to be problematic in setting up or in subsequent operation, them it's easier to tweak legislation than change the constitution (as we well know)

 

[whiskeytown]

May have been preferable to have the referendum solely about recognising Indigenous people as the first people to inhabit this continent. Separately, legislate for a voice/ mechanism to improve outcomes for indigenous people.

Generations of public servants, Commissions, whatever other bodies should be condemned for what they have failed to achieve.

^ this

I’m the yes voters want a boogeyman to blame… look at how poorly orchestrated the referendum was

As I said earlier… we should have woken up today to constitutional recognition of indigenous Australians

That’s totally on the Labor party for not splitting the question into two

FWIW I do think there’s another referendum down the track… and as multiple questions from multiple topics can asked at once on referendum day (see referendums in the 1980s)

… once of those questions will be about constitutional recognition of indigenous Australians

 

[jmac70]

IF the voice proved to be problematic in setting up or in subsequent operation, them it's easier to tweak legislation than change the constitution (as we well know)

A referendum solely on Indigenous recognition would also be defeated. That is clear.

 

[Drought Break]

No, that is your tit-for-tat.

Anyway the Vote No to division worked as we can now look forward to what the No group is going to propose to better the life of Aboriginal communities and still allow us to keep titles to our properties. (The land grab really had me worried).

Dutton and Price in their speeches last night stated what they want to do. Royal commission into sexual abuse in aboriginal communities, getting the kids to school, jobs, auditing where the 35 billion dollars in welfare is going every year etc. Hopefully labor can implement some of these. They are after all the ones in government.

 

[sr36]

Symbolism is powerful sr, we've squandered a great opportunity. A complicated issue like this is difficult to reduce to "catchy soundbites" but surely a better job could have been done to simplify and streamline the messaging. I'll just point to the "No" camp to illustrate my point.

Australia is a fair and magnificent country. Being an optimist I see goodness in most people. This wasn't the hard sell that most are making it out to be in my view. We soldier on, onwards and upwards.

P.S: My little neck of the woods lived up to its "left leaning progressive hippie" reputation.

View attachment 1831512

I think it's a tough sell with a simple message as it's ultimately about a group of culture's desire to have greater autonomy over communities that are separate from multicultural Australia, which sits uncomfortably with many's ideals of equality and multiculturalism. Trying to sell that with opposition is too hard in a sound bite world, so they tried to tap into equality and multiculturalism despite them being uncomfortable bed fellows. So your left with this awkward thing where cultural groups are singled out in the spirit of equality and multiculturalism without it being explained satisfactorily. And something that is ultimately about division is attempted to be sold as being about unity.

 

[whiskeytown]

No, that is your tit-for-tat.

Anyway the Vote No to division worked as we can now look forward to what the No group is going to propose to better the life of Aboriginal communities and still allow us to keep titles to our properties. (The land grab really had me worried).

Some in the No camp have proposed alternatives… price proposes an audit of where tens of billions per annum indigenous funding goes to

But I would love for you or anyone else here to explain to me… how the voice would’ve solved these problems that 10s of billions each year for decades, numerous governments and numerous indigenous bodies like ATSIC and the NIAA have failed to do to this point

Bet you can’t. Because the voice was just going to be another layer of Canberra bureaucracy that would have little impact on the most disadvantaged communities

 

[Maggie5]

Mundine's comment on the polling in those areas:

Asked if an allegation was being made against the AEC, Mundine intervened, shouting, “you know what, people are committing suicides in these communities”.

“People are being r*ped and beaten and this is the questions you come up with!?

“We had a vote tonight that said Australians want to get things done,” he said.

Mundine urged the media to “stop talking about all this other nonsense and start talking about kids … who are as young as nine and 10 who commit suicide in their communities and those kids who get r*ped”.

Okay what are he Thorpe, Dutton, Price and co as the leaders of the NO vote suggest Parliament do about it?

Where is their detailed plan?

 

[gouki88]

Dutton and Price in their speeches last night stated what they want to do. Royal commission into sexual abuse in aboriginal communities, getting the kids to school, jobs, auditing where the 35 billion dollars in welfare is going every year etc. Hopefully labor can implement some of these. They are after all the ones in government.

Why a Royal Commission? They had plenty of time whilst governing to implement some of the Deaths in Custody recs

 

[gouki88]

Some in the No camp have proposed alternatives… price proposes an audit of where tens of billions per annum indigenous funding goes to

But I would love for you or anyone else here to explain to me… how the voice would’ve solved these problems that 10s of billions each year for decades, numerous governments and numerous indigenous bodies like ATSIC and the NIAA have failed to do to this point

Bet you can’t. Because the voice was just going to be another layer of Canberra bureaucracy that would have little impact on the most disadvantaged communities

Excellent parrot impersonation

 

[jmac70]

Some in the No camp have proposed alternatives… price proposes an audit of where tens of billions per annum indigenous funding goes to

But I would love for you or anyone else here to explain to me… how the voice would’ve solved these problems that 10s of billions each year for decades, numerous governments and numerous indigenous bodies like ATSIC and the NIAA have failed to do to this point

Bet you can’t. Because the voice was just going to be another layer of Canberra bureaucracy that would have little impact on the most disadvantaged communities

The Voice was a recommendation from the Uluṟu statement. Not a Canberra initiative.
Albo simply fulfilled his promise to take it to the Australian people.

 

[Maggie5]

Dutton and Price in their speeches last night stated what they want to do. Royal commission into sexual abuse in aboriginal communities, getting the kids to school, jobs, auditing where the 35 billion dollars in welfare is going every year etc. Hopefully labor can implement some of these. They are after all the ones in government.

LOL! Another Royal Commission?

Maybe Dutton should look back at the history of what his party has done in the past.

Labor advocated the Yes vote, Is was the No vote that won, show us the details.

 

[jmac70]

Here is the statement for anyone interested to know what was rejected.

ULURU STATEMENT FROM THE HEART
We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the southern sky, make this statement from the heart:
Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years ago.
This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown.
How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years?
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness.
We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.
We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution.
Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.
We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.
In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people.

 

[Drought Break]

LOL! Another Royal Commission?

Maybe Dutton should look back at the history of what his party has done in the past.

Labor advocated the Yes vote, Is was the No vote that won, show us the details.

how about we see the details of the YES vote first. You know the one that Albo has refused to give any detail on and tried to implement. This was his idea. Dutton wrote to him at start of year with 15 questions he wanted answers to and Albo did not reply. The fool still hasn't even read the full 26 page Uluru statement. Ray Martin couldn't even give any details when pressed in last weekends debate, that's after he called no voters dickheads and dinosaurs for not knowing the details.

 

[Drought Break]

Here is the statement for anyone interested to know what was rejected.

ULURU STATEMENT FROM THE HEART
We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the southern sky, make this statement from the heart:
Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years ago.
This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown.
How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years?
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness.
We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.
We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution.
Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.
We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.
In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people

you read the full 26 pages?