Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry Current

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[Lady O]

The non publication order expires mid 2025 I believe, or at the conclusion of all of their legal matters.

You would think as it's almost 10 years since he went missing, and that they have no foster children to protect, the non publication of their identities would be redundant.

 

[Wallace52]

You would think as it's almost 10 years since he went missing, and that they have no foster children to protect, the non publication of their identities would be redundant.

It’s ridiculous, isn’t it?

 

[31550]

From what period from and to were the text messages missing?

Why champagne? What were they celebrating?

I would be more concerned about the text messages deleted by FM on the day of William's disappearance. These only came to public light recently.
I mean, who stops to delete text messages while they are supposedly frantically searching for a missing child?
And why were these not fully and forensically investigated at the time? Too late now.

 

[31550]

You would think as it's almost 10 years since he went missing, and that they have no foster children to protect, the non publication of their identities would be redundant.

There are multiple suppression / non-publication orders in place, including ones to protect LTs identity and foster-care status from being disclosed. I would think most of these will remain in force until she becomes an adult and/or leaves foster care. By extension, the fosters identities will probably remain under such orders at least until that time.

 

[LRitz]

The timing of those deleted texts is interesting. They were in Bali from 23 July 14 to 2 August 14.

Wonder champers was downed on flight there?

Really ?
What were they chatting about in July in Bali that needed to be deleted?

Interesting if they could visit the shop that sold the camera. But i'm guessing too much water under the bridge.

 

[LRitz]

Look, I agree that most likely something happened to William at the house that morning, and most likely FGM fabricated all or part of her story to cover that up, and I also agree that there are elements of potential 'leakage' which allude to what might have happened.
But I disagree that one can draw any particular theory as to what may have happened (car accident, balcony fall, ...) from the FGM story. All I can say is I don't take any of it as fact, because it is inconsistent with other testimony, inconsistent with the physical facts, and even inconsistent with itself. So IMO, it's best ignored.

FGM - says FF left at 8:00 am:
I am not trying to say or guess the reason (mix ups, confusion, forgot, etc) for the discrepancies of the time of FF leaving between the witnesses, FF FM and FGM, and the CCTV. What I think is odd that anything that happened before the photo at 9:37 should have been pretty straight forward as it was before the possible accident/fall from balcony.

FGM - says FF "definitely" not there.
As i mentioned above, I also found this very confusing as FM has FF there at breakfast eating toast. Why wouldn't they, FM and FGM, have got their storylines together? (Do we know what the FF statement is about anything about eating breakfast?) Again confusion of story well before WT is missing. But on looking at FGM walkthrough again, I suggest that what FGM is saying is that he was definitely not there when she had further breakfast with WT and LT. This fits in with FM first statement, that FF leaves and the kids are still having breakfast and took longer to have breakfast. So the picture they paint is that FF leaves the house and WT has not left with him and is happily having breakfast with his sister and FGM. And don't forget the special orange juice.

Nothing looks to me "most likely". Angry red bull thinks a fall may have caused an injury but not death and i tend to agree. No evidence of an injury from a vehicle. Maybe possible that the crime scene is not at the house.

 

[LRitz]

Paper on falls from a height in children fromJournal of Pediatric Surgery in 1983.

Abstract: "Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children......data on 61 children .... for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived.
... Of the children who fell three stories or less, all survived (100%). ......"

Ten years of experience with falls from a height in children - PubMed

Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children. The medical and social data on 61 children admitted over the last decade for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived. Of the children who fell three stories or less...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[31550]

(Do we know what the FF statement is about anything about eating breakfast?)

According to FF statement he grabbed a toast and coffee before leaving the house. He doesn't claim to have sat down and eaten breakfast with the rest of them. IMO toast and coffee could be referred to as 'breakfast'. This seems to fit with him leaving in a hurry to get to the chemist before his meeting. And this would have been before 9am. The breakfast FGM talks about took place after this, so her estimate of 8am just can't be correct. The policewoman interviewer neglected to ask her the obvious question, "How do you KNOW it was 8am?"
The FFs timeline is pretty well supported by CCTV, his online meeting presence, the pharmacy receipt etc.

As for what is 'most likely', the simplest explanations are usually correct (Occams Razor). The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions. IMO that includes accepting as much of what has been testified to as correct - the photograph is taken of William on the deck, then cups of tea are made (no tea in the photos), William 'disappears', FM 'looks for him', then drives in FGM car to Batar Ck Rd, then returns before 10:30 when FF arrives, at which time William is 'gone'. No trace of William in the street or off FGM property means he must have been removed by car. The chance of a random opportunistic abductor driving by the house in that exact timeframe and taking William without anybody seeing or hearing anything is infinitesimal. However, we know the FGM car left the premises and returned. The simplest and most logical explanation is that William was in that car. Further theories about how and why he got there should start with this position.

William Tyrrell foster mother's never before seen police interview

A police interview with William Tyrrell 's foster mother shows she gave confused and varying accounts of what happened on the toddler's last morning alive.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The foster mother, known as SD, was grilled about deleting text messages from the foster father on the day William disappeared,

 

[Wallace52]

Paper on falls from a height in children fromJournal of Pediatric Surgery in 1983.

Abstract: "Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children......data on 61 children .... for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived.
... Of the children who fell three stories or less, all survived (100%). ......"

Ten years of experience with falls from a height in children - PubMed

Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children. The medical and social data on 61 children admitted over the last decade for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived. Of the children who fell three stories or less...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

He might have fallen and was unconscious and was moved off the property alive but semi-conscious or unconscious.

That might account for any failure of a cadaver dog to pick up a scent at 48 Benarooon Drive.

 

[31550]

He might have fallen and was unconscious and was moved off the property alive but semi-conscious or unconscious.

That might account for any failure of a cadaver dog to pick up a scent at 48 Benarooon Drive.

There couldn't possibly be cadaverine at FGMs house unless his body was left there for a couple of days. He was gone by 10:30. No cadaverine, dead or alive. The sniffer dogs used were not cadaver dogs and they did not detect his scent anywhere except FGM house.

 

[Wallace52]

There couldn't possibly be cadaverine at FGMs house unless his body was left there for a couple of days. He was gone by 10:30. No cadaverine, dead or alive. The sniffer dogs used were not cadaver dogs and they did not detect his scent anywhere except FGM house.

Thanks, that sounds about right.

 

[Lady O]

Paper on falls from a height in children fromJournal of Pediatric Surgery in 1983.

Abstract: "Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children......data on 61 children .... for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived.
... Of the children who fell three stories or less, all survived (100%). ......"

Ten years of experience with falls from a height in children - PubMed

Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children. The medical and social data on 61 children admitted over the last decade for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived. Of the children who fell three stories or less...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"2.3.3 Profiles for age groups 0–4, 5–9 and 10–14 years
Of the total 225 childhood deaths due to accidental falls, 47.6% occurred in children aged 0–4 years, 20.0% in those aged 5–9 years and 32.4% in 10–14 year olds for the period 1979–1998."

[snip]

"In all children under 15 years, falls from or out of a building (E882) was the second most common mechanism of fall-related death between 1979 and 1998 (Figure 2.5). For those aged 0–4 years, falls from or out of buildings resulted in about 26% of the fall-related deaths for this age group (Figure 2.5). In those aged between 5–9 years, the proportion was just less than 18% and for 10–14 year olds, the proportion was 36% (Figure 2.5)"

https://pp.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/17c201d7-9428-4b9b-9c8e-8ed987f8942f/injcat37.pdf?v=20230605181929&inline=true

 

[31550]

"2.3.3 Profiles for age groups 0–4, 5–9 and 10–14 years
Of the total 225 childhood deaths due to accidental falls, 47.6% occurred in children aged 0–4 years, 20.0% in those aged 5–9 years and 32.4% in 10–14 year olds for the period 1979–1998."

[snip]

"In all children under 15 years, falls from or out of a building (E882) was the second most common mechanism of fall-related death between 1979 and 1998 (Figure 2.5). For those aged 0–4 years, falls from or out of buildings resulted in about 26% of the fall-related deaths for this age group (Figure 2.5). In those aged between 5–9 years, the proportion was just less than 18% and for 10–14 year olds, the proportion was 36% (Figure 2.5)"

https://pp.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/17c201d7-9428-4b9b-9c8e-8ed987f8942f/injcat37.pdf?v=20230605181929&inline=true

The balcony fall certainly seems a plausible cause of death. In fact the most obvious cause of death in the circumstances.
But then why was it thought necessary to conceal this event by moving the body?
Again, start with the most obvious reason, which requires the least assumptions:
Perhaps the person responsible for putting / allowing William on the balcony unsupervised felt that they might be held responsible for him falling? That person might suffer loss of reputation. If it was FM she'd probably have William's sister taken from her.
But why would they feel responsible if the fall was accidental?
One explanation is that perhaps William had been misbehaving and was put in 'time out' on the balcony. We know from BA records that on a previous occasion FM had used 'outdoor timeouts' as a punishment. If William was being overly 'boisterous', not rolling the dice properly, and getting "fed up" with drawing painting, disturbing the peace by roaring like a tiger, was he perhaps sent to 'time-out' on the balcony while his sister continued to draw, and FM and FGM enjoyed their quiet cup of tea? Did he continue to misbehave by continually running back to the verandah from the balcony and roaring like a tiger, just as FM said he did? Was he told to go back to time out and keep quiet? Did he go back to the verandah, get bored and decide to climb off to escape from timeout, using the bench seat at the end of the high balcony, and subsequently fall to his death? "Oh, Mum, he's gone quiet, I better go check! ... Oh I can't find him anywhere!" ... "Oh, the little devil!" ... these words all fit this scenario.
Suppose FM then went searching the garden, thinking he'd run off, but then returned to the point beneath the balcony where he'd fallen, and realised what had happened. He's dead because she put him in time-out on an unsafe balcony! So she quickly bundles him into FGM car, drives him off somewhere else, and returns with the story that he's disappeared and can't be found.

This also fits the narrative about his reluctance to climb trees - FM would have us believe he wouldn't have tried to climb off the balcony.
This also fits what LT said - William jumped off the balcony and then we couldnt find him.
The broken plants where William 'deliberately crashed his bike' - is this where he fell?

 

[Lady O]

The balcony fall certainly seems a plausible cause of death. In fact the most obvious cause of death in the circumstances.
But then why was it thought necessary to conceal this event by moving the body?
Again, start with the most obvious reason, which requires the least assumptions:
Perhaps the person responsible for putting / allowing William on the balcony unsupervised felt that they might be held responsible for him falling? That person might suffer loss of reputation. If it was FM she'd probably have William's sister taken from her.
But why would they feel responsible if the fall was accidental?
One explanation is that perhaps William had been misbehaving and was put in 'time out' on the balcony. We know from BA records that on a previous occasion FM had used 'outdoor timeouts' as a punishment. If William was being overly 'boisterous', not rolling the dice properly, and getting "fed up" with drawing painting, disturbing the peace by roaring like a tiger, was he perhaps sent to 'time-out' on the balcony while his sister continued to draw, and FM and FGM enjoyed their quiet cup of tea? Did he continue to misbehave by continually running back to the verandah from the balcony and roaring like a tiger, just as FM said he did? Was he told to go back to time out and keep quiet? Did he go back to the verandah, get bored and decide to climb off to escape from timeout, using the bench seat at the end of the high balcony, and subsequently fall to his death? "Oh, Mum, he's gone quiet, I better go check! ... Oh I can't find him anywhere!" ... "Oh, the little devil!" ... these words all fit this scenario.
Suppose FM then went searching the garden, thinking he'd run off, but then returned to the point beneath the balcony where he'd fallen, and realised what had happened. He's dead because she put him in time-out on an unsafe balcony! So she quickly bundles him into FGM car, drives him off somewhere else, and returns with the story that he's disappeared and can't be found.

This also fits the narrative about his reluctance to climb trees - FM would have us believe he wouldn't have tried to climb off the balcony.
This also fits what LT said - William jumped off the balcony and then we couldnt find him.
The broken plants where William 'deliberately crashed his bike' - is this where he fell?

I finally found this photo, taken in the hours-days after he went missing. While it isn't terribly clear, there appears to be some seats on the balcony that would be easy for WT to have climbed and fallen over.

 

[LRitz]

"2.3.3 Profiles for age groups 0–4, 5–9 and 10–14 years
Of the total 225 childhood deaths due to accidental falls, 47.6% occurred in children aged 0–4 years, 20.0% in those aged 5–9 years and 32.4% in 10–14 year olds for the period 1979–1998."

[snip]

"In all children under 15 years, falls from or out of a building (E882) was the second most common mechanism of fall-related death between 1979 and 1998 (Figure 2.5). For those aged 0–4 years, falls from or out of buildings resulted in about 26% of the fall-related deaths for this age group (Figure 2.5). In those aged between 5–9 years, the proportion was just less than 18% and for 10–14 year olds, the proportion was 36% (Figure 2.5)"

https://pp.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/17c201d7-9428-4b9b-9c8e-8ed987f8942f/injcat37.pdf?v=20230605181929&inline=true

Lady O are you saying falls usually result in deaths? Even though it says 26% of fall related deaths in this are group are from a building this is 26% of a very small number.

Don't want to start a war on statistics but there are falls and falls. A quick look ( i have not read the whole paper so happy to be corrected on my reading) shows there were 25,837 falls ( this included falls from "one level" whatever that means, big falls and little falls) investigated in this paper over a 10 year period.There were 247 deaths and 25,590 in hospital. So death rate was about 1%. Many survived.

In the summary it states "Discussion" section 5 page 66...."In Australia, cases due to falls among children are numerous, but they are rarely life- threatening".

 

[LRitz]

He might have fallen and was unconscious and was moved off the property alive but semi-conscious or unconscious.

That might account for any failure of a cadaver dog to pick up a scent at 48 Benarooon Drive.

Wallace 52 is there a bit of tunnel vision.

Semi-conscious? What was his GCS?
All this to hide what? They had already reported the bruised face and were off the hook. What person would not have called 000. And the FGM did not object?

 

[Lady O]

Lady O are you saying falls usually result in deaths? Even though it says 26% of fall related deaths in this are group are from a building this is 26% of a very small number.

Don't want to start a war on statistics but there are falls and falls. A quick look ( i have not read the whole paper so happy to be corrected on my reading) shows there were 25,837 falls ( this included falls from "one level" whatever that means, big falls and little falls) investigated in this paper over a 10 year period.There were 247 deaths and 25,590 in hospital. So death rate was about 1%. Many survived.

In the summary it states "Discussion" section 5 page 66...."In Australia, cases due to falls among children are numerous, but they are rarely life- threatening".

Not correcting you, just providing additional statistics.

Of the 225 children who died from accidental falls between '79 and '98, the majority (47%) were aged 4yrs and younger.

Falls from buildings were the second most common fall causing death.

In the 0-4yrs age group, 26% of deaths were from falls from buildings.

This is relevant to WT.

 

[Wallace52]

Wallace 52 is there a bit of tunnel vision.

Semi-conscious? What was his GCS?
All this to hide what? They had already reported the bruised face and were off the hook. What person would not have called 000. And the FGM did not object?

Please enlighten me: What does GCS stand for? Edit <oh, you mean Glasgow Coma Scale? I’ve no idea. It’s just a theory and a pretty flimsy one.

I’m completely open still to the fact that William may have been abducted and murdered, as poor Daniel Morecombe was.

I remain open to whatever evidence may come out.

IMO

 

[Kurve]

I finally found this photo, taken in the hours-days after he went missing. While it isn't terribly clear, there appears to be some seats on the balcony that would be easy for WT to have climbed and fallen over.
View attachment 1941841

He could have easily squeezed through the lower rails, which is probably how he got on to the balcony in the first place if the railed gate was closed. Ran right around the balcony and done the same thing at the high end, expecting his feet to touch the ground.

Or, as you suggest climbed on the furniture and toppled over it.

 

[gymjam]

Paper on falls from a height in children fromJournal of Pediatric Surgery in 1983.

Abstract: "Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children......data on 61 children .... for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived.
... Of the children who fell three stories or less, all survived (100%). ......"

Ten years of experience with falls from a height in children - PubMed

Falls from a height are a major cause of accidental death in urban children. The medical and social data on 61 children admitted over the last decade for falls of one or more stories were reviewed. Seventy-seven percent of the children survived. Of the children who fell three stories or less...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In September 2014 there were large rocks in-situ under the high balcony.

 

[gymjam]

The deleted text messages are detailed in the below link :

The below para copied from below link, is taken from a statement made by the (now) former male foster carer during an interview with Jubelin on 1/9/2016: as can be seen, the dates cover quite a period of time. Note: bolding by me.

'It's noticed that during the period of (June 19 to August 3, 2014) there are no SMS messages contained in your SMS log. Why would you delete that?,' Jubelin asks.

deleted text dates

 

[31550]

The deleted text messages are detailed in the below link :

The below para copied from below link, is taken from a statement made by the (now) former male foster carer during an interview with Jubelin on 1/9/2016: as can be seen, the dates cover quite a period of time. Note: bolding by me.

'It's noticed that during the period of (June 19 to August 3, 2014) there are no SMS messages contained in your SMS log. Why would you delete that?,' Jubelin asks.

deleted text dates

Could be many reasons.
In 2014 phones had much less memory than today and some people regularly deleted old messages to make room. If he did this on August 3, the most recent messages would be displayed and deleted first, then paging through, he might have deleted messages back to Jun 19 then stopped because enough storage had been freed up.
Or maybe he thought, FM sends me a lot of crap, I'll delete all her stuff cos I know I don't need it for work?
There is also the possibility that FM and FF swapped phones (or swapped SIMs) during this period. Going by phone records which have been made public, I can see the same device being referred to as belonging to FF in one report, and FM in another. If they had traded devices or Sims in this period, it might cause message history during that period to be missing from a particular device.

 

[Wallace52]

The timing of those deleted texts is interesting. They were in Bali from 23 July 14 to 2 August 14.

Wonder champers was downed on flight there?

Text were deleted from June 19 to August 3…….

As per your other link gymjam .

What happened on this trip to Indonesia?

IMO

 

[gymjam]

Could be many reasons.
In 2014 phones had much less memory than today and some people regularly deleted old messages to make room. If he did this on August 3, the most recent messages would be displayed and deleted first, then paging through, he might have deleted messages back to Jun 19 then stopped because enough storage had been freed up.
Or maybe he thought, FM sends me a lot of crap, I'll delete all her stuff cos I know I don't need it for work?
There is also the possibility that FM and FF swapped phones (or swapped SIMs) during this period. Going by phone records which have been made public, I can see the same device being referred to as belonging to FF in one report, and FM in another. If they had traded devices or Sims in this period, it might cause message history during that period to be missing from a particular device.

If they had swapped sims during a period in 2014, that would be difficult and problematic for FF. he stated/indicated to jubelin on 1/9/2016 the sim was his work number. therefore he would have been out of contact with his clients for a period if the sim was swapped. the sim was always connected to FF as far as I am aware. it was the imei of one of FF previous phones that was connected to FM and that imei disconnected from the network on 9th from memory; he indicated the phones were supplied to him yearly over a number of years, by his work. I will check that period. FF told jubelin he knew nothing about the imei being connected or registered to the FM as far as I am aware.

Makes me consider the imei that had been registered in FM name, that disconnected from the network on 9/9/2014, could have been used for internet researching - you don't need a sim in a mobile phone to get online. does anyone know if (in 2014) it was possible to participate in face-time or using other similar online chat apps without a sim?

 

[31550]

If they had swapped sims during a period in 2014, that would be difficult and problematic for FF. he stated/indicated to jubelin on 1/9/2016 the sim was his work number. therefore he would have been out of contact with his clients for a period if the sim was swapped. the sim was always connected to FF as far as I am aware. it was the imei of one of FF previous phones that was connected to FM and that imei disconnected from the network on 9th from memory; he indicated the phones were supplied to him yearly over a number of years, by his work. I will check that period. FF told jubelin he knew nothing about the imei being connected or registered to the FM as far as I am aware.

Makes me consider the imei that had been registered in FM name, that disconnected from the network on 9/9/2014, could have been used for internet researching - you don't need a sim in a mobile phone to get online. does anyone know if (in 2014) it was possible to participate in face-time or using other similar online chat apps without a sim?

You can swap Sims (keep the same phone) but retain contacts, email, messages etc. Similarly you can swap phones and keep your Sim, but in this case you would (selectively) transfer contacts email and messages you want to.
With iPhones this is as easy as logging into iCloud and doing a sync.

Yes you can use the internet without a Sim, but you would need WiFi connected to the internet. You need a Sim for a data connection otherwise.

Phone carriers log both the IMEI and the phone number in call and text logs.
Carriers log data connections and usage against the IMEI and phone number also even if a 'data only' SIM is in the device. It still has a phone # associated.

If you use wifi to connect to internet, the phone carrier doesn't know what you are doing, only the ISP for the wifi connection does.