Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[31550]

What if the photos were taken later, say at 8:00 or 8:10 or ?? with a camera that the time was set to 7:39. I would think it would have been bright enough by around 8:00 to read outside.
The photo looks like there was a flash used, IMO. There is a light reflection ("catch light") in Williams eyes. Would you need a flash at 9:30?

They weren't. The photos were all taken on the same camera, and the time on the camera had never been changed since it was purchased. Forensic examination conformed this. What you are suggesting would involve changing the camera clock twice - by about 20 minutes back then forward - but also on the second change, setting it back to the exact same time difference from GMT (to the millisecond). Not sure how someone would do this, or why?

There may or may not have been a flash used. Human eyes tend to reflect any available light in all digital photographs, not just from the camera flash. Try taking a selfie without a flash - you will always get those white dots in your eyes from the ambient light being focussed (refracted?) by a white round shiny eyeball.

In any case, any discussion about the photos being taken at 8:00 or 8:10 is irrelevant unless you can link this to some theory which is consistent with other physical evidence. Not sure what particular theory you are pursuing with this suggestion.

 

[Wallace52]

Did the FP’s seperate at one stage? If so then there is a big WHY?

I don’t think they have separated at any stage.
I might be wrong.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

They weren't. The photos were all taken on the same camera, and the time on the camera had never been changed since it was purchased. Forensic examination conformed this. What you are suggesting would involve changing the camera clock twice - by about 20 minutes back then forward - but also on the second change, setting it back to the exact same time difference from GMT (to the millisecond). Not sure how someone would do this, or why?

There may or may not have been a flash used. Human eyes tend to reflect any available light in all digital photographs, not just from the camera flash. Try taking a selfie without a flash - you will always get those white dots in your eyes from the ambient light being focussed (refracted?) by a white round shiny eyeball.

In any case, any discussion about the photos being taken at 8:00 or 8:10 is irrelevant unless you can link this to some theory which is consistent with other physical evidence. Not sure what particular theory you are pursuing with this suggestion.

You have a theory. That theory involves subjective assesment of facts you conceive were relevant regarding the camera and photos neither of which are known facts at this stage. Please don't promote them that they are. it's misleading.

The photo isn't proof of life because the camera was under total control of Fosters and EXIF data is able to be manipulated. Perhaps your theory has greater likelihood but it still isn't fact as you seem to imply. The proof of life is what was heard children playing before 9 and just after 9. Weak also.

The fact that FGM has sought to hide time of FF and his car is suspicious. I can accept she may have mistaken time but did she also mistake people at breakfast? Unlikely. He left at 8.40..She said......"he had left before 8 and wasn't there for breakfast". She also hid that (per Where's William Tyrrell podcast) she watched the bike riding too. On other statements she didn't. Accident or lie? Why? Was the bike riding linked to his death?

I think that the early morning is a secret to what happened and I think multiple post 12th activities contrived to hide what did including:

* FGM being excluded from possibility of being an accessory by lies ( where was FF and lie she wasn't there for bike ride when Where's William Tyrrell podcast says she was )

* Possible manipulation of EXIF data under their control to make it appear William was alive at 9.37.

* Mysterious cars being imagined to promote an abduction.

inconsistent testimonies is often the first indication of what is incriminating.

For the record sunrise was 5.53 am and at 7.37 sun elevation was calculated by many here at 18° approx. William had a Spiderman tshirt under his Spiderman outfit and FD was dressed in a dressing gown or coat as was FGM. On my research the temperature range that day was 12° to 19°. Cool but not cold. Certainly not dark 2 hours after sunrise.

It's as though you are attempting to censor any opinions/ thoughts contrary to your theory about the photos by ridicule...." Can't believe we are still talking about the photos." I am because there remains many issues about sequence of events, whereabouts of FF and that early morning including intentional or unintentional lies of FGM. Doesn't mean the alternate possibilities are right either but certainty worth consideration at this point .

I also now believe that FD became exposed to what did happen. Why? Inconsistent choices by Foster parents per Episodes 1 & 3 of where's William Tyrrell.. made a point of refusing to offer FD account of that morning "to protect her" yet made clear what she saw with the UTurn car to promote abduction. A clear disparity and at least suspicious perhaps incriminating for what she saw. An attempt to hide her testimony. Red flags

Another interesting fact arose from those episodes. The average time to report a missing child is 2 hours. This was truncated to 25 minutes by FM. Given the wide expanse and possible places to hide/ low car traffic in the street you'd expect the report time to be longer not shorter. It is a red flag that Williams fate was known

 

[31550]

You have a theory. That theory involves subjective assesment of facts you conceive were relevant regarding the camera and photos neither of which are known facts at this stage. Please don't promote them that they are. it's misleading.

I have a number of possible theories, but I am not pushing any particular agenda. If I have presented any opinion as fact, I apologise. I am usually quite careful to separate opinion from fact: I will usually say "I believe that ..." unless something is an accepted fact.

Re the photos, I said "I can't believe we are still discussing these." I did not say they were an indisputable proof of life. However, I believe they have been discussed ad infinitum in this forum, and there really is no more to be said about them. It is my opinion that if the EXIF data had been deliberately manipulated then SFR forensics would have discovered this by now, and therefore, if SFR accept the photos as proof of life at 9:37, there is really no point discussing alternatives unless SFR decide that is not the case.

The fact that FGM has sought to hide time of FF and his car is suspicious.

And here you go, doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Stating opinion as fact. This is not a fact. I agree with your opinion that FGMs account is suspicious, but there is no proof that FGM deliberately concealed anything.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I have a number of possible theories, but I am not pushing any particular agenda. If I have presented any opinion as fact, I apologise. I am usually quite careful to separate opinion from fact: I will usually say "I believe that ..." unless something is an accepted fact.

Re the photos, I said "I can't believe we are still discussing these." I did not say they were an indisputable proof of life. However, I believe they have been discussed ad infinitum in this forum, and there really is no more to be said about them. It is my opinion that if the EXIF data had been deliberately manipulated then SFR forensics would have discovered this by now, and therefore, if SFR accept the photos as proof of life at 9:37, there is really no point discussing alternatives unless SFR decide that is not the case.


And here you go, doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Stating opinion as fact. This is not a fact. I agree with your opinion that FGMs account is suspicious, but there is no proof that FGM deliberately concealed anything.

It has been opined that she was suffering cognitive decline as possible explanation for errors. That's possible. But:

• She told FF the time of chemist opening the night before 9 am
• She said he left before 8 before she got up when he left at 8.40
• She was confused and adjusted her numbers at breakfast
• In her walk through she was fixated about FF and his need to leave
• She gave conflicting accounts of watching not watching bike riding
• "This is where it all happened" Freudian slip
• "Bouncing out of his skull" Freudian slip

Yes it is my OPINION not fact that she lied to be excluded from being an accessory probably at FM behest. All her suspicious choices point to early morning. So it directs my focus there also

 

[31550]

It has been opined that she was suffering cognitive decline as possible explanation for errors. That's possible. But:

• She told FF the time of chemist opening the night before 9 am
• She said he left before 8 when he left at 8.40 before she got up
• She was confused and adjusted her numbers at breakfast
• In her walk through she was fixated about FF and his need to leave
• She gave conflicting accounts of watching not watching bike riding
• "This is where it all happened" Freudian slip
• "Bouncing out of his skull" Freudian slip

Yes it is my OPINION not fact that she lied to be excluded from being an accessory probably at FM behest. All her suspicious choices point to early morning. So it pushes my focus there also

IMO FGM walkthrough is very lucid. She is clearly educated and articulate and does not appear to be suffering any cognitive impairment. (We know she was still active in the community and recent to 2014 was a journalist for the local newspaper). She understands all the questions she is asked. But her recollections are not clear or consistent. She is resolute about some things, but vague about others. This may be a result of stress or confusion, or an attempt to conceal the truth, or maybe she was just unaware of everything going on.

Unfortunately the detective did not ask the key questions, "How do you know it was 8am (or whatever time)?" - She may have had a reference like a watch or clock, or a radio program. But this wasn't asked, so when FGM says "about 8 o'clock", we really don't know if it might have actually been 7am or 9am.

But I think the important part of the FGM walkthrough is the sequence of events:

• after breakfast FGM did the dishes, and FM played with kids outside
• then they all went to the verandah "where it all happened". "This is where we stayed". "About an hour". Doing the drawing and the card-making ... "This is where she took the photo"
• William disappeared round the corner
• FM said "He's gone a bit quiet I better go look for him". Then "I can't find him". "Oh, the little devil"
• Then FM is gone for some time, but FGM stays with W's sister. (How long was she gone? - detective did not ask!)
• FM did not return so FGM went looking for her, sees AMS, and sees FM coming back up Benaroon Drive. (In the car or on foot? - detective did not ask!) (Had AMS already spoken to FM? Detective did not ask! But why else would AMS be in the street?)
• FGM talks to AMS then walks back up to the verandah, by which time FF had returned ("He already knew, how he knew I don't know, she must have told him") Did FGM see FF return? - Detective did not ask!

AMS can certainly corroborate or refute this account of events. Who did she see first? FM or FGM? What time? Was W's sister with FGM? Did AMS see FM in FGM car or on foot or both? Did AMS see FF return? Was she ever asked?

How did FF possibly return without FGM seeing him drive up Benaroon?

I think the whole "looking for William" did not happen until FF returned home at 10:30. "Have you got William?" indicates FM expected FF to have seen William on his return. So, he wasn't 'missing' in her mind. OR, it was a cover-up/deflection question - FM knew he didn't have William (because she knew / thought she knew where William was).

 

[js47]

I wonder if the detective asked what topics you talked about AFTER William ran around the corner. They had so much to discuss. And FGM insinuated that William kept taking over the conversation. After he ran around the corner they could get on with these topics undisturbed and time slipped away.
Topics to be considered the washing machine, adoption, packing the house up, the new headstone, the FGM wasn’t well. The FM mentioned he had been gone too long. Yes far too long maybe they had forgotten about him.
I wonder if William rode away on his bike and FM went to look for him in the car just a thought. And found a bike without William. Could she have bought it back in the car?

 

[js47]

The dog scent finished on the driveway didn’t it? Wheel the bike to the drive hop on and peddle off down the street.

 

[31550]

I wonder if William rode away on his bike and FM went to look for him in the car just a thought. And found a bike without William. Could she have bought it back in the car?

But why would FM not say so if that's what happened?

 

[31550]

The Directions Hearing for the Coronial Inquest was set down for 13th August. Did it go ahead? I haven't seen it reported anywhere.

 

[Kurve]

The Directions Hearing for the Coronial Inquest was set down for 13th August. Did it go ahead? I haven't seen it reported anywhere.

Maybe they're doing deals and gone dark. There'd be a lot going on we know nothing about imo.

 

[31550]

Maybe they're doing deals and gone dark. There'd be a lot going on we know nothing about imo.

I don't think a Coronial Inquest should be subject to 'deals', but maybe I'm being naive. There are (or should be) no 'sides' in a colonial inquest - its only purpose is to establish the truth.

 

[Kurve]

I don't think a Coronial Inquest should be subject to 'deals', but maybe I'm being naive. There are (or should be) no 'sides' in a colonial inquest - its only purpose is to establish the truth.

I meant the police/ODPP more so and there's possibly been another delay.

There'd be no point in proceeding with the Coroner's Inquest if that's what was going on and they were close to reaching a deal.

 

[Wallace52]

I meant the police/ODPP more so and there's possibly been another delay.

There'd be no point in proceeding with the Coroner's Inquest if that's what was going on and they were close to reaching a deal.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/william-tyrrells-abductor-could-be-laughing-they-got-away-with-it/news-story/8c0f63a49c9aa904a48c9919e5727012?amp&nk=9068b14255e91420ccb444167e2d520e-1723964379

I don’t think C. C. would be too keen on a “deal”.

She’s still chasing an abductor.



IMO

 

[js47]

But why would FM not say so if that's what happened?

Maybe……FM got carried away with topics and was being neglectful in duty of care. Guilty and scared having to tell FF and FGM. Facing everyone what had happened.
It was his new bike the temptation could be to great and fun after a boring morning. The feeling of being a big kid.
Then he really could have been abducted or run over.

 

[Wallace52]

Maybe……FM got carried away with topics and was being neglectful in duty of care. Guilty and scared having to tell FF and FGM. Facing everyone what had happened.
It was his new bike the temptation could be to great and fun after a boring morning. The feeling of being a big kid.
Then he really could have been abducted or run over.

I think both bikes were still there when the police turned up.

 

[DropBearess]

The Directions Hearing for the Coronial Inquest was set down for 13th August. Did it go ahead? I haven't seen it reported anywhere.

It's tomorrow morning l believe.

On SM-A205YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[LRitz]

The sequence is problematic. The last proof of life (ignoring the photo) was neighbours hearing the children before 9 and shortly after 9 (approx 9.15)

Did they hear one child or two children?

 

[LRitz]

The sequence is problematic. The last proof of life (ignoring the photo) was neighbours hearing the children before 9 and shortly after 9 (approx 9.15) We are told that bike riding happened first, game in garden, failed tree climb THEN they settled into verandah play for an extended time before WT went around corner.

Agree, The sequence is problematic.
FM was on the phone in the kitchen after 9:00 leaving a message with BS (evidence). FM says they finished breakfast with the children after FF left. So if they start to play after the phone call, that gives around 30 minutes for all these activities (say from around 9:00am to 9:30).

From FM's police statement - after breakfast:
LT stayed with FM inside and did some "stuff"
William and FM walk around the garden. William has his sandals on. Played "monsters". FM:"we did this for avbout 10 minutes".
FM slips and injures hand.
FM goes back inside and shows FGM injured hand.
FM goes outside again and more playing now with both children, monsters, climbing tree, spinning around.

Other activities not in FM's first police statement. Bike ride with children.

FM setting up things for drawing.
Children sitting on back deck starting drawing.
Getting camera to take photo.
William at some stage sandals removed.
(not sure if there was a cup of tea when the photos were taken)
First photo 9:35

This all could happen before 9:35 if each activity took 10 minutes, so possible.
Bike ride is not mentioned in FM's initial statement, or by FGM in her recorded walk through. Interesting that they both forgot to mention this as you would think it was important as this was a time that William was (allegedly) playing outside at the front of the house and would have been visible from the street.
FM and FGM also both forget to mention any phone calls from the house.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Did they hear one child or two children?

As far as I can tell Savage heard laughter. No mention of one or two or even parent/ child interaction. I wasn't even able to determine distinction between bike riding and mummy monster tag game.

Importantly he heard play. Then you have to ask would they 'play' after William had died?

 

[LRitz]

The fact that FGM has sought to hide time of FF and his car is suspicious. I can accept she may have mistaken time but did she also mistake people at breakfast? Unlikely. He left at 8.40..She said......"he had left before 8 and wasn't there for breakfast". She also hid that (per Where's William Tyrrell podcast) she watched the bike riding too. On other statements she didn't. Accident or lie? Why? Was the bike riding linked to his death?

There is no evidence of when exactly FF left the house.
He was seen on Tennis club CCTV (I think the time was around 8:50). So yes, the latest he could have left the house was around 8:40. But he could have left any time before this. Certainly he did not leave after 9:00.(unless he doubled back to the house after the CCTV, but I don't think this has been mentioned as a possibility).
Maybe FGM was correct with 8:00.

The stories and timeline of the whole morning are variable and shifting. FGM omits the bike riding in her walk through ("which way would I have gone?"). As does FM in her statement. FGM seemed to be the one inside washing up after breakfast, and is still in her slippers at 9:35.

 

[LRitz]

They weren't. The photos were all taken on the same camera, and the time on the camera had never been changed since it was purchased. Forensic examination conformed this.

As I understand it was a fairly basic digital camera. Some cameras do not even have the ability to store photos. I do not know if a camera would store information showing a change in settings. There is no reason a small camera would need this. Maybe their camera could store this information. I am happy to be corrected.
Do we know the make model of the camera?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

There is no evidence of when exactly FF left the house.
He was seen on Tennis club CCTV (I think the time was around 8:50). So yes, the latest he could have left the house was around 8:40. But he could have left any time before this. Certainly he did not leave after 9:00.(unless he doubled back to the house after the CCTV, but I don't think this has been mentioned as a possibility).
Maybe FGM was correct with 8:00.

The stories and timeline of the whole morning are variable and shifting. FGM omits the bike riding in her walk through ("which way would I have gone?"). As does FM in her statement. FGM seemed to be the one inside washing up after breakfast, and is still in her slippers at 9:35.

Yes that was my original thinking. He could have left before 8. And ultimately doubled back from the national park to be seen CCTV at 8.45

Where's William Tyrrell podcast says bike riding happened first because they were keen to use their new bikes. They even said both FM and FGM were there to watch the bike riding.

I'm inclined to say that WWT podcast is possibly insightful if it varies to known testimony. Why? Because it started 2018 Nov and was probably completed sometime before that during the time GJ was chasing his shadows and Fosters had been cleared ie they felt safe to divulge all that happened. Thats possibly explains why they subpoenaed the records

If statements excluded bike riding then suddenly included it in WWT podcast that IS significant. If bike riding cause the death then it would perhaps have been initially suppressed.

 

[LRitz]

Yes that was my original thinking. He could have left before 8. And ultimately doubled back from the national park to be seen CCTV at 8.45

Where's William Tyrrell podcast says bike riding happened first because they were keen to use their new bikes. They even said both FM and FGM were there to watch the bike riding.

I'm inclined to say that WWT podcast is possibly insightful if it varies to known testimony. Why? Because it started 2018 Nov and was probably completed sometime before that during the time GJ was chasing his shadows and Fosters had been cleared ie they felt safe to divulge all that happened. Thats possibly explains why they subpoenaed the records

If statements excluded bike riding then suddenly included it in WWT podcast that IS significant. If bike riding cause the death then it would perhaps have been initially suppressed.

Would be better to stay true to their early first statements, IMO. Had they forgotten, or lost their original statements?
I think (again IMO) you need a big grain of salt when listening to the podcasts.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Would be better to stay true to their early first statements, IMO. Had they forgotten, or lost their original statements?
I think (again IMO) you need a big grain of salt when listening to the podcasts.

Yes. It was a throw away line about bike riding. That said it seemed professionally done and thorough