Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[LRitz]

My time line

• ?
• Photo roaring like a Lion
• ?
• FM calls police at 10:56

Another eyewitness of the morning was LT and her short discussion with WH on the Friday. Of course there are problems with this. LT is only 4 years old. It must have been a terrible and confusing morning for her. She understands that her brother is lost and must of been upset. She only says a few things. She could have been influenced by hearing what FM and FGM were saying of what happened.

From WH statement from her notes on Friday 12th:......I asked LT to show me where William had been playing. LT went to the same grassed area and stated words to the affect "We were on the deck drawing and William was roaring like a lion and·looking for daddy to come home, then we started looking for him."....

• We were on the deck drawing and William was roaring like a lion and
• Iooking for daddy to come home, then
• we started looking for him.

LT says they were on the deck and William roaring. This would fit in with the time the photo was taken and William is certainly roaring in the photo. Could this have been the last time she saw William. She does not say that William then later on playing tigers, or running around on the grass, or running down the side of the house. Could William have disappeared immediately after the photo was taken. How did LT know that William was looking for daddy, did William say this or was LT told this by FM. Possible - LT notices that William is missing and is told that he is in the front yard waiting for Daddy. No indication of times in this. How long did the drawing take, How long was William missing while he was looking for Daddy, it could have been minutes or an hour.
And, importantly, what time was the photo taken of William roaring like a lion?

 

[31550]

I wonder how FM would feel if the child care people did not give undivided attention to William for 15 to 20 minutes if they could not see him. He was only 3. You can never relax with a child that young.

My guess is that FM was happy to dump William and his sister at daycare while she got on with her job, and know that anything that happened to them there would not be 'her fault' but the fault of the daycare centre.
I mean, who takes on foster kids, and then regularly leaves them at day care all day anyway? If she needed occasional respite then this should have been done through FACS. IMO an ageing couple without parenting experience who both work full-time are not suitable carers for two preschool toddlers from a troubled background.

 

[Wallace52]

If she needed occasional respite then this should have been done through FACS. IMO an ageing couple without parenting experience who both work full-time are not suitable carers for two preschool toddlers from a troubled background

I wholeheartedly agree. They were older and they hadn’t done parenting classes and they didn’t have parenting experience.

I think the clincher was the FM had requested through FACS/DOCS that William be approved to attend pre-school 2 days a week to supplement his 3 days at daycare and to give her more of a break from him, and they said no.

So what does one do when one comes up against a brick wall? Asking for more time away from William but not getting it, and not having much choice in the matter as he’s in State Care.

What now?

 

[31550]

There isn’t any mention of FGM. I will see if I can get another copy. This book may have been changed. This copy is 2020.
It seems to me she meant it was FM’s first contact with AMS.
AMS said she would look at bus stop
FM goes to long grass and scream
FM goes for drive (she would have to get the keys)
FM returns to find FF on way home.
you are right she would have driven past AMS twice.
If she ran to get the keys that maybe is why FGM went down to speak to AMS?

This is why it's necessary to get AMS version of the sequence of events from FM speaking to her, until the police arrived.
She was there and allegedly spoke to both of them. Who spoke to her first? Was William's sister with either of them? How long did she speak to each of them? Did she see FM in FGMs car? Did she see FF arrive back home? Any other people or cars during this period? (Allegedly Paul Savage saw his wife off to bingo at 10:30). Did she see either of them?

According to both FM and FGM, AMS was in the street between the time William disappeared and the time police arrived.
Can AMS confirm their version of events, or are we missing some details?

 

[stormbird]

Just back to AMS for a second - she is an important witness as the closest and first 'independent' witness (not directly associated with the fosters) on the scene. So, her testimony is critical IMO.

Do people think that Overington and Chumley spoke directly to AMS and got her version of events before writing their books, or did they only go by what they were told by the fosters and police?

According to the books, AMS was the first person engaged with by FM. She was having her usual smoke outside the front of her property when FM came over, looking for William. After a brief encounter, AMS sent FM down to the bus shelter to look for William.

Then, according to FGM walkthrough, FGM spoke to AMS, who (I assume) was still out on Benaroon Drive (alone) - FGM says she didn't initially see FM, but spoke to AMS, and then after some time FM came back up Benaroon 'distraught' and said, "I have to call the police". Then FGM walked back up to the rear of her house when she encountered FF who 'already knew' and began running around - so this must have been just after 10:30.

Working backwards, FM would need 10 minutes to walk 300 metres each way to the bus shelter and back - so she must have spoken to AMS before 10:20. If William was gone for '5 minutes' before she looked, this puts him jumping off the verandah before 10:15. Tea was made before this. Dice rolling was before this. So, there was really very little time to get in FGMs car and drive to the riding school and back after the photograph at 9:37.

Re: "... she must have spoken to AMS before 10:20."

From Daily Mail, 21 Jan 2024:

FM's initial timeline about searching was found to be wrong:

"The foster mother said she had searched for William in the yard, the house and partly down the street before speaking to neighbour Anne Maree Sharpley, then going down to talk with another resident, Lydene Heslop, to search in the bus stop.

The foster mother said that all happened prior to the foster father texting her and then arriving home from making a conference call at a nearby town with better internet reception.

Police logged his text at 10.30am and his arrival home at 10.33am.

Jubelin told the foster mother she was wrong, and that she hadn't gone searching for William with Ms Sharpley until after the foster father had arrived home.

'I can tell you I think fairly well that it's after,' Jubelin said, 'and it's around 10.40 or 10.45 that you first speak with Anne Maree.

'Anne Maree said when she speaks with you there, she sees and hears a male that is [the foster father].'"

 

[31550]

Re: "... she must have spoken to AMS before 10:20."

From Daily Mail, 21 Jan 2024:

FM's initial timeline about searching was found to be wrong:

"The foster mother said she had searched for William in the yard, the house and partly down the street before speaking to neighbour Anne Maree Sharpley, then going down to talk with another resident, Lydene Heslop, to search in the bus stop.

The foster mother said that all happened prior to the foster father texting her and then arriving home from making a conference call at a nearby town with better internet reception.

Police logged his text at 10.30am and his arrival home at 10.33am.

Jubelin told the foster mother she was wrong, and that she hadn't gone searching for William with Ms Sharpley until after the foster father had arrived home.

'I can tell you I think fairly well that it's after,' Jubelin said, 'and it's around 10.40 or 10.45 that you first speak with Anne Maree.

'Anne Maree said when she speaks with you there, she sees and hears a male that is [the foster father].'"

Then FGM is also incorrect, because she says FM said "Oh Mum he's a bit quiet", and went looking for him, and then FGM followed, all before FF returned home.
So it just doesn't add up.
Yet, here we are, ten years later. And it was eight years before there was any focus on the FM as a suspect?

 

[stormbird]

This is why it's necessary to get AMS version of the sequence of events from FM speaking to her, until the police arrived.
She was there and allegedly spoke to both of them. Who spoke to her first? Was William's sister with either of them? How long did she speak to each of them? Did she see FM in FGMs car? Did she see FF arrive back home? Any other people or cars during this period? (Allegedly Paul Savage saw his wife off to bingo at 10:30). Did she see either of them?

According to both FM and FGM, AMS was in the street between the time William disappeared and the time police arrived.
Can AMS confirm their version of events, or are we missing some details?

Presumably there are people here who are in the private group with AMS, so couldn't they just ask her? Or better, ask her to please please consider joining BigFooty, the clearly superior crime forum

There are lots of things I'd like to know e.g. when did she return home after taking her child to day care or preschool? When did she leave for work? Was FGM correct about there being two cars parked in her driveway and about an "elderly" couple driving past?

 

[31550]

please please consider joining BigFooty, the clearly superior crime forum

Yeah that would work
She is on record as saying she never saw the two parked cars, I believe.

 

[Wallace52]

Then FGM is also incorrect, because she says FM said "Oh Mum he's a bit quiet", and went looking for him, and then FGM followed, all before FF returned home.
So it just doesn't add up.
Yet, here we are, ten years later. And it was eight years before there was any focus on the FM as a suspect?

I feel like Gary did a great interview with her in 2016. They could have focussed on her as a suspect, but they didn’t.

It’s such a shame.

IMO.

 

[31550]

I feel like Gary did a great interview with her in 2016. They could have focussed on her as a suspect, but they didn’t.

It’s such a shame.

IMO.

What makes it a great interview? Surely a good interview would be one where the cops went in with a completely open mind (assume nothing), and a critical eye for detail (believe nothing), and pursued any apparent conflicts or inconsistencies in testimony (challenge everything).
It seems to me Jubelin went in with one intended purpose: to clear the FM once and for all, to pave the way for the $1M reward to be offered. If the outcome of the interview is already clear in the mind of the investigators, then how can we expect the truth to be revealed?
Sure Jubelin asked a few questions, but it was little more than: "Did you kill William?" "No?" "Alright then."

How about asking FM to clear up all the discrepancies in her narrative? How about working through a detailed timeline from beginning to end, and placing all of FMs actions and observations in that timeline?

 

[js47]

This is why it's necessary to get AMS version of the sequence of events from FM speaking to her, until the police arrived.
She was there and allegedly spoke to both of them. Who spoke to her first? Was William's sister with either of them? How long did she speak to each of them? Did she see FM in FGMs car? Did she see FF arrive back home? Any other people or cars during this period? (Allegedly Paul Savage saw his wife off to bingo at 10:30). Did she see either of them?

According to both FM and FGM, AMS was in the street between the time William disappeared and the time police arrived.
Can AMS confirm their version of events, or are we missing some details?

Just wish we could ask those questions first hand. The trouble is too many people ask and the water gets muddy.

 

[Wallace52]

Just wish we could ask those questions first hand. The trouble is too many people ask and the water gets muddy.

I’m pretty sure we should just wait until her testimony comes out some day. Let’s leave the questioning of witnesses to the police.

IMO

 

[js47]

This is why it's necessary to get AMS version of the sequence of events from FM speaking to her, until the police arrived.
She was there and allegedly spoke to both of them. Who spoke to her first? Was William's sister with either of them? How long did she speak to each of them? Did she see FM in FGMs car? Did she see FF arrive back home? Any other people or cars during this period? (Allegedly Paul Savage saw his wife off to bingo at 10:30). Did she see either of them?

According to both FM and FGM, AMS was in the street between the time William disappeared and the time police arrived.
Can AMS confirm their version of events, or are we missing some details?

When did the neighbours hear who they thought was the postie?

 

[31550]

When did the neighbours hear who they thought was the postie?

That was earlier. About 9am or 9:15 I believe.

 

[js47]

I’m pretty sure we should just wait until her testimony comes out some day. Let’s leave the questioning of witnesses to the police.

IMO

I will never get the chance to ask questions. It has been 10 years and it STILL IN NOT CLEAR who did what and when. Police have questioned people and we have to hope they have finally worked out a clear time line and we will get to hear about it.

 

[js47]

That was earlier. About 9am or 9:15 I believe.

Thanks 31550 I wonder who it was.

 

[js47]

From the time William was photographed to the time he disappeared around the corner was a very long roar. My kids did something for a few minutes and then would have forgotten about it.

 

[js47]

There was the FF leaving by car.
There was the early postie sound.
There was AMS taking kids to school.
There were people returning from shopping.
There were kids playing on the patio.
There was neighbours going to bingo.
There was some one mowing down the street.
There was a bird scream.
It appears like a normal street on a normal day.
But! People commented it was deathly quiet?

 

[stormbird]

When did the neighbours hear who they thought was the postie?

Mr C: about 9:40 to 9:45am (i.e. 10 minutes after they got home)

Ms C: about 10:10 to 10:15am (40 minutes after they got home)

(They heard the same vehicle but didn't agree about when.) This information was posted to another forum by someone who attended the inquest when Mr and Ms C gave their evidence. I don't know whether it's an accurate account of what they said, but the person posting the info seemed to be more often correct than not, IMO.

Obviously the 10:10 to 10:15am possibility should have interested police because that's when (by the time of the inquest) William was believed to have gone missing. So I think it's strange that no one seems to have reported what sort of vehicle could have sounded like the postie's. What did she drive? No one has said.

 

[stormbird]

There was the FF leaving by car.
There was the early postie sound.
There was AMS taking kids to school.
There were people returning from shopping.
There were kids playing on the patio.
There was neighbours going to bingo.
There was some one mowing down the street.
There was a bird scream.
It appears like a normal street on a normal day.
But! People commented it was deathly quiet?

Something I've wondered: sometimes there's a deathly sense of quiet and unease when the breeze stops completely for a short time, before it picks up again from a different direction. I expect at FGM's place, with so many trees around, any sudden lack of movement in the leaves would seem unusually quiet.

 

[31550]

Thanks 31550 I wonder who it was.

Apologies. Corrected by stormbird. The 'postie' was heard by the Crabbes, although they could not agree on the time. (Either ~9:50 or ~10:10).
Could have been FM on her drive? Maybe they were both correct (FM leaving and returning?) Fits the timeline.

 

[stormbird]

Apologies. Corrected by stormbird. The 'postie' was heard by the Crabbes, although they could not agree on the time. (Either ~9:50 or ~10:10).
Could have been FM on her drive? Maybe they were both correct (FM leaving and returning?) Fits the timeline.

Fits the timeline, but did the postie drive a vehicle that sounded like FGM's Mazda 3 hatchback?

If the postie vehicle was something completely different it's still possible it could have been FGM's car that Mr and Ms C heard - if they were making assumptions based on the postie's usual time of delivery, say - but it would mean they're a bit less reliable as witnesses, IMO.

 

[31550]

Fits the timeline, but did the postie drive a vehicle that sounded like FGM's Mazda 3 hatchback?

If the postie vehicle was something completely different it's still possible it could have been FGM's car that Mr and Ms C heard - if they were making assumptions based on the postie's usual time of delivery, say - but it would mean they're a bit less reliable as witnesses, IMO.

Here's what Chumley says:

Well , it turns out a car was indeed heard (but not seen) around this time of that morning by Mr and Mrs Crabb. By the time of day, the fact that no doors were heard to open, the turn it made and the sound of the engine, they took it to be the postal worker’s vehicle. (In these parts, due to long distances, the postie drives a car, not a motorbike.)​

​

Mr Crabb said he heard the vehicle, but he didn’t take much notice because it ‘sounded exactly like the postman’. Mrs Crabb said it was going quite fast. The public would never hear whether the police had ruled out the postie. Presumably, it would be simple enough to check with the post office which driver (in which vehicle) was on duty that day. Actual y, I did some digging and discovered that the postal worker - a woman - had been in Benaroon Drive about ten that morning. We can’t rule out the possibility that it was the postal worker the Crabbs heard.​

​

The Crabbs heard that car but none of the other neighbours did. It seems possible then that vehicles can sometimes enter and leave Benaroon Drive without being seen or heard. This lends weight to Anna’s testimony regarding the two cars. She could have been the only person in the street to have seen those two parked cars.​

​

​

And this is what Overington writes:​

​

Peter Crabb, and his wife, Sharelle, had been out that morning, but they had returned at around 9.30 a.m., to have morning tea on the deck until shortly before 11 a.m. Their house, at 51 Benaroon Drive is diagonally opposite number 48.​

​

Both remembered hearing what they assumed was the postie enter the street. They were half-listening for him, because the Millers had asked them to take in the mail while they were in Queensland.​

​

‘It was a very, very quiet street, you can always hear somebody coming up the road,’ Mr Crabb said, recalling that he turned to his wife when he heard the car, saying: ‘That could be the postie.’​

​

He thought the car had stopped to do a U-turn, or maybe turn in a circle, before heading off again.​

​

‘It didn’t stop at Paul Savage’s, it stopped at [number 48],’ he said. ‘I don’t know how long, about as long as it takes to put a letter in the box. It stopped, and then it kept going.’​

​

Mrs Crabb also remembers hearing that car.​

​

‘You do hear quite a lot,’ she said, of Benaroon Drive. ‘And I thought this could be the postie. Because it wasn’t going slow, it was going reasonably fast, like the postie does.’​

​

Mrs Crabb said the car paused before it went off again, and it was only when police came asking about unfamiliar vehicles in the street ‘that we sat back and started to think that was maybe somebody stopping and picking William up?’ said Mr Crabb.​

 

[stormbird]

From the time William was photographed to the time he disappeared around the corner was a very long roar. My kids did something for a few minutes and then would have forgotten about it.

And it's hard to believe that William and his sister would be much different, IMO.
The idea that William's sister at only 4 years of age might have been happy to sit on the patio, drawing or colouring-in, from about 9:30am till maybe when FF gets home at 10:33am - with just a break doing the dice jumping game for a while - it's possible (maybe she was a child who liked to concentrate on one thing for a long time) but to me it just doesn't seem likely.

 

[stormbird]

Here's what Chumley says:

Well , it turns out a car was indeed heard (but not seen) around this time of that morning by Mr and Mrs Crabb. By the time of day, the fact that no doors were heard to open, the turn it made and the sound of the engine, they took it to be the postal worker’s vehicle. (In these parts, due to long distances, the postie drives a car, not a motorbike.)​

​

Mr Crabb said he heard the vehicle, but he didn’t take much notice because it ‘sounded exactly like the postman’. Mrs Crabb said it was going quite fast. The public would never hear whether the police had ruled out the postie. Presumably, it would be simple enough to check with the post office which driver (in which vehicle) was on duty that day. Actual y, I did some digging and discovered that the postal worker - a woman - had been in Benaroon Drive about ten that morning. We can’t rule out the possibility that it was the postal worker the Crabbs heard.​

​

The Crabbs heard that car but none of the other neighbours did. It seems possible then that vehicles can sometimes enter and leave Benaroon Drive without being seen or heard. This lends weight to Anna’s testimony regarding the two cars. She could have been the only person in the street to have seen those two parked cars.​

​

​

And this is what Overington writes:​

​

Peter Crabb, and his wife, Sharelle, had been out that morning, but they had returned at around 9.30 a.m., to have morning tea on the deck until shortly before 11 a.m. Their house, at 51 Benaroon Drive is diagonally opposite number 48.​

​

Both remembered hearing what they assumed was the postie enter the street. They were half-listening for him, because the Millers had asked them to take in the mail while they were in Queensland.​

​

‘It was a very, very quiet street, you can always hear somebody coming up the road,’ Mr Crabb said, recalling that he turned to his wife when he heard the car, saying: ‘That could be the postie.’​

​

He thought the car had stopped to do a U-turn, or maybe turn in a circle, before heading off again.​

​

‘It didn’t stop at Paul Savage’s, it stopped at [number 48],’ he said. ‘I don’t know how long, about as long as it takes to put a letter in the box. It stopped, and then it kept going.’​

​

Mrs Crabb also remembers hearing that car.​

​

‘You do hear quite a lot,’ she said, of Benaroon Drive. ‘And I thought this could be the postie. Because it wasn’t going slow, it was going reasonably fast, like the postie does.’​

​

Mrs Crabb said the car paused before it went off again, and it was only when police came asking about unfamiliar vehicles in the street ‘that we sat back and started to think that was maybe somebody stopping and picking William up?’ said Mr Crabb.​

Also, from I Catch Killers, Gary Jubelin & Dan Box, Kindle edition 2020, page 292:

"We bring the postwoman in for an interview in April 2017. She tells us her mail run to the street that day was unusually early, at around 8.45am, so she would have been gone long before William disappeared.

Although there’s no CCTV on Benaroon Drive, we can follow her movements around Kendall on different cameras and see nothing to contradict her version of events."