Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Wallace52]

if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. Why not just drop all the pretence? If you are totally innocent and you want the world to know, then drop all the suppression orders (as far as they affect yourself anyway), and go public and tell your whole story to the world. Let the public ask you the questions they all want answered.

That’s a very good point. Also, if she’s totally innocent she could have just cooled her heels and waited for the police to move onto a new suspect and a new direction. Because she knew that she wasn’t involved and she had no knowledge of what happened, so she would have known the police would have no evidence, so why not just take a step back, think rationally - well I’m innocent and I’ll just wait it out, instead of this constant need to be one step ahead in controlling the public narrative.

That’s what’s grinding her gears, I think, it’s that she wants to be ahead of the public narrative and she can’t because the narrative has totally run away on her.

What kind of person needs to have so much control over the general population at all times? In 2021 she had it all.

She had the house, husband, nice cars, presumably she still had William’s sister under her roof (I’m assuming she got to remain with the FM after William disappeared?), she had custody and of other foster kids, a good job, she was a volunteer at the school Tuckshop, she had a Blue Card, all the things. Her and her husband went boating, the foster kids (well at least 1) rode horses, they went on nice family holidays, camping trips, skiing, like what a life. Living in a nice area of Sydney with great public schools around for the kids. They had resources like a small library of specialised school textbooks geared towards assisting the 11 year old child prepare for a selective high school, they had the respect of Michelle White and DOCS/FACS as they would regularly help the agencies out with emergency placements.

Why not just cool it and wait for this new police theory, a theory that didn’t have legs (because she knew she was innocent) to blow over?

Why did she have to lose her temper on that 11 year old foster child? It just baffles me that she wasn’t able to hold it together. And she should have been relaxed enough in herself, with a clear conscience, to lay her head down each night and know that she was a good person, she hadn’t hurt William, she was well-respected and law-abiding, she was a gentle mother, she hadn’t hurt any children, and just focus on what she had. A beautiful life.

Something is missing from this picture. IMO there was something the FM was stressed about, now that she knew the focus was turned on her. What was it?

 

[shorsky]

I always look for human behaviour clues. The human behaviour clues here is that the FPs were definitely attuned to the need to cover timeline. If, as we now suggest that the search started after FF got home and only then included the neighbours it means that the story has been embellished by them to have happened earlier eg 10.20 not 10.40. That in turn suggests a need to cover that which is risky to them, detection.....the time at which searching started..That time is the boundary to the time available. Put simply I simply don't accept that FM/ FPs would make a police call within 15 minutes of starting search. Not when my searches revealed the average time is 2 hours. They truncated the total time to push logistics of an abduction as preferred..they then made it seem that the search start time was earlier to make it appear as having insufficient time. First words to AMS refer to him perhaps not hearing because of a head injury....another human behaviour clue. Who jumps to that random possibility as first option for a missing child? No one. it was both planting the seed in case his body was found and testing the water of what perhaps she (AMS) heard/ didn't hear.

As 31550 points out the critical factor is the time of the car trip..Truncating of the timeline by lies simply pushes voracity of an abduction not correctness of 9.37 v 7.39. but the hearing of children playing before and after 9 gives greater credence to 9.37 especially now we know they had another 20 min in the window. From 9.37 to 10.40..... an hour. An hour is possibly adequate time..I still think there are human behaviour clues around FF and his car. Enough for me to think a car hit not reported caused delayed death. Perhaps thats why she chose Cobb & co because the alibi would be a hit and run covered up by a stranger.. Perhaps the comment to AMS was leakage. He had a head knock when FF left in car and hit him ....was complaining of hearing issues. They hesitated to treat him and he died.

The traffic analysis suggests that as many as 4 people (low of 2) may have passed her car whilst hiding him. I therefore suspect that the news report that said a witness has seen her driving was perhaps correct. If so they KNOW the approximate time of the trip and forms part of the case against her..

There has been very little mention of this, but I’m sure I recall that at the end of the first stage of this inquest, police said A New Witness had come forward, someone that they were previously Not Aware of, and that person was helping with their enquiries.

Perhaps what this person had to say triggered the ‘big dig’ and search.

 

[shorsky]

I believe the time was truncated by FF's return home. The actual time is from around 9:40 to 10:57, so a little shorter than 'average'. But an average is just an average - some times will be shorter, some times will be longer. I think if FF had not returned home until much later, then the 000 call would probably have also been made later. Remember that FF's return home was BEFORE FM left the property to 'search for William'. She may have left the property before 10:30 but according to her own sworn statement on 14 Sep 2014, she did not. She got the 'home in 5' text while she was still looking for William in the FGM yard, and had not yet engaged with AMS.

Maybe she got that text while driving back home & had to get a move on to be home and race down Benaroon to appear as if she was searching, prior to FF arrival home at 10.33am. … she maybe made it by the skin of her teeth & was grateful that AM was out the front.

I think FM texted FF that William was missing & I don’t think FM was at the house when FF arrived home. … because:
AM said she heard FF calling for William

FGM said he already knew when she saw him arrive
Would make sense of FM question to him when she came back to the house - ‘have you got William ?’ … and it’s all in the way the question is asked.

The 000 call was made at 10.57 am. … that’s a 44 min gap.

What did FM do in that time ? I can’t see her driving off at this stage because AM / no one said she did.
Maybe this is when she did the ‘house searching’, checking everything was in order, brain filling L and even FFM - who no doubt had a need to make a cup of tea.

FF was apparently searching everywhere. If he did suffer with anxiety & was prone to panic attacks, I can certainly see this situation as a trigger. Personally I would have been frantic !

Constable Rowley I think arrived ( was it within 5 mins of the call as he was in the area. Is that from start or f8nish of the call ?) Let's say he got there at 11.05 am. Car bonnet was warm ( did someone do a test-drive to see how long it stayed warm for - possibly depends on how fast it was driven. .. any mechanics ? Would need to be bare minimum 35 mins. )

I think it quite possible that FF may need a toilet stop, he may also have been struggling & nauseous. Hence he was found in ‘tears’ as per Rowley’s notes…. not sure this was in FF statement however, and people may question did it need to be. .. .. some are quite reserved with their words, other more verbose ( lol probably me!)

It bothers me that Rowley didn’t take statements from all 3 of them at that time ( even ask L what happened)

 

[shorsky]

What stands out for me in the Chapman walk-through is when a blue sedan drives down Laurel Street behind Ron while he's talking, he pauses when looking towards where that car has gone (the intersection with Batar Creek Road), as if he's thinking "Is that the second car?!" He doesn't say that, and doesn't explain why he pauses, he just looks towards the intersection for a few seconds... then resumes talking. He might have paused for any other reason too, obviously, but if he did stop to look at that blue car to consider what he was seeing, IMO he seems like a good observant witness. From about 7:40 minutes in the video "William Tyrrell inquest walkthrough with neighbour who saw two cars on day of disappearance", which is midway through the article in News.com.au, 31 Aug 2019:

https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...t/news-story/7fb2360c3f8f78958bc884ad7f179d63

Even if Ron's account is believable, the child in the first vehicle might not have been William though, and if Ron saw them at 10:45 am that's probably a long time after William was last seen at FGM's:

"Det Beacroft told the court she believes William disappeared between 10.05am and 10.15am."

- from a tweet by @LiaJHarris at an inquest hearing, 20 Aug 2019

Do any locals know approx driving time between FGM’s in Benaroon Dr, and Ron Chapman’s place ? Would there be an ‘avoiding immediate main roads / Cameras etc’ route before going past Chapman’s, or would his be considered a main thoroughfare ?

 

[shorsky]

I have always been of the view that the emotional trauma of a sons death takes way longer than 40 min to overcome then quietly methodically dispose of body. For a start you have to know he is dead and try to resuscitate him.. it's easier to contemplate now it's 1 hr but I still have misgivings. Remember they were under NO time pressure only that which they themselves created

The thing is ARB, you / we are thinking logically & holistically. We would’ve called for medical assistance etc etc for an injured child, or a dead child. Anything else is way outside our ability to comprehend or to consider.

Just like we don’t murder / attack / intentionally harm people.. and the majority of our human population are (thankfully) made of the same stuff.

However there are People who think & act differently.

 

[shorsky]

I'm still going with NO FGM's car trip by anyone. I think they could have shuffled the cars in the drive way and needed to give a reason so added the car trip, and the mystery truck.

Sorry, I don’t understand why one would need to give a reason for changing car spaces, maybe they both needed to be put under cover.
However, Const Rowley said FFM car bonnet was warm (as if driven) when he arrived. I think it would take more than a quick shuffle for that to happen, unless it happened at almost the same time, in which case he may have seen that from the road

 

[shorsky]

Lady O, I live in a country area. To make the engine bonnet warm on a similar car to FGM at 25 degrees it took me 6 Ks to drive some where and back = 12 Ks I think it was a cooler day so you would have to drive further. There for the car who ever drove it went further than Bartar Creek road and Cobb. I went to a house checked the pool filter came home in less time. There was enough time to go place something and be back.

How long was the drive to the riding school ?

i read something about 2-3 mins but not sure if that was to there.

I’m interested in knowing how long the bonnet of your car stayed warm for .

 

[shorsky]

The fosters attempts to deceive everyone into thinking they were suitable carers of children, didn't work out too well for them (the fosters) did it.

Nor did their attempts to fraudulently ‘dodgy up’ the auction figures on their house.

I think we should refer to this couple in the future as Teflon, because nothing seems to stick.

 

[shorsky]

No ARB it does not take time for a head injury to kill
1 I am a reg nurse retired.
2 lost a son in a head injury ( 3 mins) autopsy always states that
3 lost a brother in law head injury (3 mins) accident. Autopsy
FACT
You have to remember Will had a head injury just a few weeks before.
Who said he immediately left the property know one knows FACT.

I’m sorry for your losses, and the pain you’ve experienced.

I too was a nurse, and as invested as we were in our patients, it’s even then so much harder when close to home.

Take care.

 

[shorsky]

Sorry for you loss

Car accidents at speed are entirely different to a fall from a balcony to soil ground or a car hitting a child in a driveway where you haven't established speed.That's why the study I quoted had 1 fatality in approx 100 cases from a balcony this height. Car accidents at speed where there are head injuries can be fatal on site clearly because the force is more significant

None of that is relevant to what we are discussing here. That study was from hospital child injuries from balcony falls. I respect your knowledge and contribution but think we may be comparing apples and oranges

Depending on the part of the brain that sustains the injury, the outcome can vary from instant death, later death ( of varying time duration) or many differing levels of life recovered / recovery.

Let’s move on from the detailed possible medical specifics, since we have no idea.

 

[shorsky]

Allegedly. This is not a fact.
We do not know where William slept. Who do you believe ? The "which way would i have gone" FGM or the FPs. For all we know William was put on the floor in the laundry.

FGM said she didn’t know who slept where ( muttered under her breath ‘oh what a mess’ when she opened the door & looked in first bedroom. )

Was her walkthrough interview after FP’s had left - and she was allowed back to Her home.

 

[js47]

Sorry for you loss

Car accidents at speed are entirely different to a fall from a balcony to soil ground or a car hitting a child in a driveway where you haven't established speed.That's why the study I quoted had 1 fatality in approx 100 cases from a balcony this height. Car accidents at speed where there are head injuries can be fatal on site clearly because the force is more significant

None of that is relevant to what we are discussing here. That study was from hospital child injuries from balcony falls. I respect your knowledge and contribution but think we may be comparing apples and oranges

My brother in law fell off a second floor balcony.

 

[js47]

Not ideal parenting. But that is not a crime, is it?

And how do we know that is the case ??
[/QUOT
Yes it is a crime when you are being paid for it and you are working for a government agency your job description is the child’s needs.
We know that is the case because FM said it herself. ]

 

[js47]

Do you think the Coroners court is a short schedule because they have nothing new? Or could there be something new and explosive that quickly leads to charges?

 

[LRitz]

Sorry, I don’t understand why one would need to give a reason for changing car spaces, maybe they both needed to be put under cover.
However, Const Rowley said FFM car bonnet was warm (as if driven) when he arrived. I think it would take more than a quick shuffle for that to happen, unless it happened at almost the same time, in which case he may have seen that from the road

Yes good point.

Im just bouncing off some alternate ideas. Maybe at the coroners we will find if there is proof, or a witness of the FGM's car being seen that morning. Or maybe not.
Trying to fit everything in to the time line is proving difficult, I think most would agree. Locking in the 9:35 photo, Williams disappearance, a possible car trip, and then to be all organised, no evidence, and back home seeing neighbours by ~ 10:35 - 10:40 - hard to work out. A few errors? The tea cups are warm, the car bonnet is warm, the scratch on FM's hand, the whole of FGM's walkthrough. Any other suggestions?

Reason for moving cars? Again just putting ideas out there, open to other possibilities. If William left in the car with FF.... (I understand this scenario of a planned murder of William that morning by the FF and FM, and the FGM as an accessory is not popular. I will not even mention William on FF's shoulders )....they could have moved the car further into the car port so it could not be seen from the road. Maybe then put FGM car back at ~10:30 before seeing neighbours. I do not know if it would be warm? Possibly not, and must have been driven further.

 

[Earls Smother]

Geez I’d forgotten a lot of this.

But for those interested in Ron Chapman, here’s some posts quoting him at the inquest.

Post in thread 'Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse'



From BFew

Post in thread 'Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse'



More on Ron’s inquest testimony



Post in thread 'Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse'



Post in thread 'Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse'

Some good posts there. There was one in particular that I would agree with in terms of the way Ron Chapman might have gone about things. I'm not sure what the policy is on quoting others from previous threads, but it was post #7179 from 31550.

If he/she objects, then just remove it.


Perhaps look at the situation from Chapman's point of view:

1. He doesn't immediately connect the sighting with William's disappearance, as it is only later that William was reported wearing the Spiderman suit.
2. He then (later that day?) hears about William's disappearance. It's a 'little boy lost, wandered into bush' scenario - hundreds of people are looking for him. He'd expect (like most of us) that William is found within a few hours. So again, his sighting of a kid in a Spiderman suit is probably not relevant. Police and searchers are busy. They'll find him.
3. William isn't found that day, but then there is media coverage where we don't see the boy's parents, but instead a "family spokesperson", and we are told "William comes from a complicated family background". So, Chapman thinks (like many of us at the time) - oh it's a custody battle - cops will find him with a family member soon enough. Again, the sighting in the car is not particularly relevant - after all, the cops would know whose doors to knock on, right? "It's a complicated family thing - OK they don't want an old man sticking his nose into it!".
4. William isn't found for a couple of days, so now the 'abduction by stranger' theory is in play and the Chapman sighting is again relevant, but by this stage, Chapman's recollection may not be as clear. He thinks about reporting it, but he hears that police are door-knocking the entire area, so he waits for the cops to knock on his door. "They must know what they are doing."
5. More days pass and nobody knocks on Chapmans door. So he tries to contact Wendy Hudson. Wendy is probably pretty busy, so he leaves a message with Kennedy. He assumes Wendy will get the message. "Why didn't they knock on my door? Maybe they know who's got him and they don't need public information any more?"
6. More time passes and Wendy either never gets the message or never follows up. By this time the cops have a suspect - Bill Spedding. Chapman assumes, "They don't need to talk to me because they've got their man - Spedding". Chapman's sighting is not so relevant.
7. More time (lots of time) passes and Spedding is cleared. But William is still not found, so the 'abduction by unknown paedophile' theory is in play. Chapman now realises his sighting could be very relevant. But by this time, his memory could be even more degraded / corrupted by media reports.
8. Eventually Ron Chapman's sighting is brought to police and public attention, but he's disregarded - "He's Old!" - "Why didn't he come forward earlier?" ...
9. Chapman starts to question himself. "Maybe I dreamed it? - why don't my family remember me talking about it?"

 

[Earls Smother]

Do any locals know approx driving time between FGM’s in Benaroon Dr, and Ron Chapman’s place ? Would there be an ‘avoiding immediate main roads / Cameras etc’ route before going past Chapman’s, or would his be considered a main thoroughfare ?

Definitely not a local, but it is 1.3km and really only one direct route IF you know where you are going.

A non-local could easily turn right out of Benaroon into Batar Creek Rd. and waste time running into dead ends. If there was a need to account for "lost time", that might explain it.

 

[LRitz]

....FGM said he already knew when she saw him arrive

.....Would make sense of FM question to him when she came back to the house - ‘have you got William ?’ … and it’s all in the way the question is asked.

I don't put much weight on anything the FGM said. I'm tending to think the opposite. She couldn't remember which way she had walked to the road following the FM, so in the walkthrough asked the police interviewer. Unbelievable! And then there was her mention of skull! So FGM alleges that FF knew.

No one witnessed (as far as I am aware) FM asking FF ‘have you got William ?’. This conversation my have never happened.

 

[js47]

There has been very little mention of this, but I’m sure I recall that at the end of the first stage of this inquest, police said A New Witness had come forward, someone that they were previously Not Aware of, and that person was helping with their enquiries.

Perhaps what this person had to say triggered the ‘big dig’ and search.

Yes of course. I still think a diary has been found. Not directly implicating but mention of details. Not knowing where it was could be why FM was so stressed maybe. Some people want to pass on knowing their life has been Left tidy her reputation in tact.

 

[js47]

How long was the drive to the riding school ?

i read something about 2-3 mins but not sure if that was to there.

I’m interested in knowing how long the bonnet of your car stayed warm for .

I kept stopping and feeling the bonnet. It finally felt warm enough on arrival. I did go down about half an hour later and it was still warm but it was in the sun so that is not a fair test.
I might do it to morrow. Again thanks for alerting me to that. The weather is also warmer. It was 25 on that day.
The FGM car can be seen parked in the car port. I think there is a door to it. So you could probably go from house to car without being seen maybe?

 

[31550]

Yes of course. I still think a diary has been found. Not directly implicating but mention of details. Not knowing where it was could be why FM was so stressed maybe. Some people want to pass on knowing their life has been Left tidy her reputation in tact.

Assuming (theoretically) a diary was found, why should it carry any more weight than the various other narratives which have been propagated by the fosters? At the end of the day, a diary, or even eye-witness testimony is still just another unsupported narrative about what might have happened.

The coroner needs to ignore all these narratives, because none of them are supported consistently by the (scarce) direct evidence available. The coroner needs to establish a most probable timeline based on immutable facts and evidence only, and disregarding any unsubstantiated narrative. If this cannot be done, then an open finding is the only available option.

Direct evidence includes verified phone records, CCTV, DNA, electronic transactions, and (dare I say it) photographs.