Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[31550]

killed WT perhaps in delayed death ' bouncing out of his skull' accident

I suspect that a head injury may have been involved. There is 'leakage' from all 3 adults in their various testimonies:
FGM - bouncing out of his skull
FM - he's hit his head or something
FF - tells the story of when he fell off the stool hitting his head and couldn't get up

Then there is facial bruising in earlier photos.

Possible he had a previous head injury exacerbated by some secondary trauma at FGMs - a fall, a blow to the head perhaps.

 

[Wallace52]

I suspect that a head injury may have been involved. There is 'leakage' from all 3 adults in their various testimonies:
FGM - bouncing out of his skull
FM - he's hit his head or something
FF - tells the story of when he fell off the stool hitting his head and couldn't get up

Then there is facial bruising in earlier photos.

Possible he had a previous head injury exacerbated by some secondary trauma at FGMs - a fall, a blow to the head perhaps.

I think that is the most reasonable explanation. IMO

 

[js47]

Wouldn’t it be terrible if a child was biting someone and another person slapped that child and chased that child on to a high veranda? Leaving their slippers behind.
The police might say to some one , “Are you protecting some one ?”.

Or that child had previous injuries and collapsed.

 

[js47]

Like a bad smell the comment… “this is we’re it happened” keeps coming back to me.

 

[Wallace52]

Wouldn’t it be terrible if a child was biting someone and another person slapped that child and chased that child on to a high veranda? Leaving their slippers behind.
The police might say to some one , “Are you protecting some one ?”.

Or that child had previous injuries and collapsed.

Being chased, then pushed by the Fm makes sense to me.

It would explain more logically why she then disposed of his body, as police have suggested.

 

[Wallace52]

And you tell your husband so he can come back and help search!

Omg of course you do. Like get your ass down here and help me!

As if you just like wait an hour for him to get home.

Why did anyone ever think this was normal behaviour?

 

[js47]

Exactly!
I think it is amazing to me that L was able to repeat what she may have been told to say as a 4 year old and later when she said she was going to be come a detective.
What a cleaver girl she is.
I really wish her well for the future now she has the space to grow I hope.

 

[Wallace52]

Yes 3 or 5. I think js47 was just saying he would have had to have had a bath.
Edit as in he would have been due for one.

You know what makes me really sad? Is that he didn’t even get time for a bath or shower before he died. So he’s out there somewhere, un-cared for, in a dirty state, he wet his nappy / pull-up that morning so his bum probably still had a bit of wee smell or residue on it (one would need a bath or shower to really get urine completely off a little kid), he’s got dirty feet and he is dressed in a flimsy cheap costume from Bali, probably has no shoes on, and he’s just left there.

He gets:

No dignified burial
He’s left for dead, dirty and un-bathed
He is shoeless
He doesn’t have his favourite toys with him
He is all alone in the bush
He is away from everyone who may have loved him
His sister had to ride home a few days later in the family car with his car seat still in the car, and no one sitting in that seat

This is a boy that had the State of NSW as their parent, legally.

And people wonder why the NSW police have thrown everything at the chance to find him. Well that’s why.

We have to find him. It’s not fair for him to be out there, alone in the bush. He is a child of the State. He had no chance at having a decent life once he was put into care.

People have a right to know where he is. His parents who gave birth to him have a right to know where he is.

I want answers. I want to know where William is and what happened to him.

I am sick of hearing lie after lie after lie. I am sick of Clare and Alice building their career on marketing this case. It should be illegal to sell merchandise out the front of a Coronial Inquest, and they best not have their toddler ribbons on display at Lidcombe next week. How dare they monetise the senseless demise of this child.

I think Australia has waited long enough. For the truth, as ugly as it may be.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

It would have been a different kind of investigation from the start if he'd had no shoes on. He wouldn't have even made it to the road on that block with no shoes on.



There's a discussion about this in Part 1, the FM said she went out in the car after the alarms were raised he was missing. Nobody appears to have seen her then but she probably did because she'd have assumed she was seen. That car drive was not to remove William it was for some other reason.

If William was removed by her, it was before the alarms went up.

Therefore, she drove out twice.

I wonder what evidence they have, if any, for a second trip. I know that early news reports were talking about an object thrown and a second trip. Perhaps it was LE theories only.

What we know is that:

• FF was home and heard when FM first spoke to AMS at 10.40
• Rowley had apparently checked the car bonnet for warmth at 11.05. both? Anyone have Rowley witness statement?
• My recent tests outlined here suggest that there will be up to 1 hr detectable warmth on grill not bonnett for 1 hr after an 8 min drive..Warmer temp when I did mine means car was driven after 10.10 app. Was it Both cars, Bonnett only or Bonnett and grill. Anyone? Rowley evidence?

There is multiple leakages for a head injury per 31550. The bike ride was excluded from both FGM and FM early statements (but reintroduced in where's Willian podcast). We know that bike ride happened about 9. Ie close to when FF left in his car. We also know that kids were heard playing either side of 9 but different people different directions and types of play.. We know FF must have left at 8.40 to be captured CCTV at 8.45 approx. So I surmise that IF it is car that was involved ( and I suspect this because FGM lied about the time she was up and whether FF and his car were still there- she was trying to exclude the possibility he was there at time close to when bike riding happened) then it's possible a head knock happened with FF car knocking him to ground , he getting back up but bleeding in his head. Play some more, heard then collapsed found by FM.

That first trip I suspect was some time after children heard playing say 9.20. ( yes I'm intentionally ignoring ATM the 9.37 because it's possibly edited without detection)..There is a window from 9.20 to app 10.25 for a first trip. In that time FM could have taken him to a gorge off side of BC Rd in Nat park in that time. Anywhere. if there was cadaver then at Cobb & co then there. If no cadaver then much further away with second trip meaning the trip after 10.10 was for something like shoes thrown. Likely why it happened

We know that traffic volume supports at least 2 - 4 cars may have seen her on BC Rd in 7 min time possibly there..The article I linked said a witness has come forward seeing her driving in bush. I therefore believe this to be true . Was seen yet to be confirmed hopefully at inquest.

The location turns on cadaver scent. It's possible cadaver scent won't arise immediately (ie car) but would definitely arise where he was placed for longer than 90 min. That is the recommended guide. So cadaver scent detection in FGM car once tested will tell us where it was ....Cobb & co ( in which case they moved him later) then the car WILL have cadaver indications and if none then location was further away at outset AND photos EXIF were edited. That imo is the equation.

My only concern is if new owner of car had not garaged the car the scent may dissipate by time tested

 

[Kurve]

I wonder what evidence they have, if any, for a second trip. I know that early news reports were talking about an object thrown and a second trip. Perhaps it was LE theories only.

What we know is that:

• FF was home and heard when FM first spoke to AMS at 10.40
• Rowley had apparently checked the car bonnet for warmth at 11.05. both? Anyone have Rowley witness statement?
• My recent tests outlined here suggest that there will be up to 1 hr detectable warmth on grill not bonnett for 1 hr after an 8 min drive..Warmer temp when I did mine means car was driven after 10.10 app. Was it Both cars, Bonnett only or Bonnett and grill. Anyone? Rowley evidence?

The bonnet being warm might be significant. I drove my own vehicle 1.5km yesterday, first drive of the day, it didn't heat the bonnet at all. Squat, nothing.

Hopefully, the cops have tested the FGM car to see how long driving it takes for the engine to heat up enough it can be felt on the bonnet.

Theory:

The FGM car was taken out twice, the first time the engine got hot, either by driving further than 1.2kms and/or exiting the car leaving it to idle for several minutes, it's still heating up through the idle. It's hot when she gets back and it starts to cool.

The second time was only a short drive say 2kms down to Batar Creek Road and back, a round trip. Not enough for the engine to heat up so it's warm to touch UNLESS there was a residual warmth from the first drive and that 2kms gave it a bump.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The bonnet being warm might be significant. I drove my own vehicle 1.5km yesterday, it didn't heat the bonnet at all. Squat, nothing.

Hopefully, the cops have tested the FGM car to see how long driving it takes for the engine to heat up enough it can be felt on the bonnet.

Theory:

The FGM car was taken out twice, the first time the engine got hot, either by driving further than 1.2kms and/or exiting the car leaving it to idle for several minutes, it's still heating up through the idle. It's hot when she gets back and it starts to cool.

The second time was only a short drive say 2kms down to Batar Creek Road and back. Not enough for the engine to heat up so it's warm to touch UNLESS there was a residual warmth from the first drive and that 2kms gave it a bump.

My test mirrored yours. I only felt warmth after 40 minutes when I placed my hand at the grill NOT the Bonnett

When I did my test I also checked the gauge. There was still heat on gauge though no longer detectable to touch including grill..ie there is a point at which it's no longer detectable but there remains heat on the gauge which heats again for second trip. Yes

 

[31550]

My test mirrored yours. I only felt warmth after 40 minutes when I placed my hand at the grill NOT the Bonnett

When I did my test I also checked the gauge. There was still heat on gauge though no longer detectable to touch including grill..ie there is a point at which it's no longer detectable but there remains heat on the gauge which heats again for second trip. Yes

Playing devil's advocate somewhat, but Rowley's observation that the bonnet was warm might not carry much weight in a court. How warm exactly is 'warm'? Rowley cannot say. There are a number of explanations why the car may be abnormally warm. Maybe it had been run earlier in the day or moved to allow for bike riding or FF's car to be moved. May have sat there idling for a while. Maybe the radiator / cooling system wasn't working optimally, so the engine may have been abnormally warm.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's an important piece of evidence but unless Rowley used a thermometer and/or did a more thorough investigation - lifted the bonnet, asked if anyone else had started / used the car that morning etc. then it's little more than circumstantial.
I would still like to see a full cross-examination of the FM about the exact timing, and nature and circumstances of her drive, asking her to fit it within the other activities which form her narrative. Staggering that this hasn't already been done though.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Playing devil's advocate somewhat, but Rowley's observation that the bonnet was warm might not carry much weight in a court. How warm exactly is 'warm'? Rowley cannot say. There are a number of explanations why the car may be abnormally warm. Maybe it had been run earlier in the day or moved to allow for bike riding or FF's car to be moved. May have sat there idling for a while. Maybe the radiator / cooling system wasn't working optimally, so the engine may have been abnormally warm.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's an important piece of evidence but unless Rowley used a thermometer and/or did a more thorough investigation - lifted the bonnet, asked if anyone else had started / used the car that morning etc. then it's little more than circumstantial.
I would still like to see a full cross-examination of the FM about the exact timing, and nature and circumstances of her drive, asking her to fit it within the other activities which form her narrative. Staggering that this hasn't already been done though.

My initial approach is to ignore admissibility. Why? Because initially i'm trying to place jigsaw pieces to determine credible story and worry about whether can be proven later. If I don't have a credible story we are nowhere....well perhaps even down a rabbit hole. I take your point though there are uncertainties in the whole process including it could be thrown out entirely as meaningless. Doesn't mean it has no value from investigative perspective just as cadaver indications may but likewise thrown out

 

[js47]

Wallace for years I have been restless about this case what was it I needed to say. Your words perfect.
THANK YOU

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Playing devil's advocate somewhat, but Rowley's observation that the bonnet was warm might not carry much weight in a court. How warm exactly is 'warm'? Rowley cannot say. There are a number of explanations why the car may be abnormally warm. Maybe it had been run earlier in the day or moved to allow for bike riding or FF's car to be moved. May have sat there idling for a while. Maybe the radiator / cooling system wasn't working optimally, so the engine may have been abnormally warm.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's an important piece of evidence but unless Rowley used a thermometer and/or did a more thorough investigation - lifted the bonnet, asked if anyone else had started / used the car that morning etc. then it's little more than circumstantial.
I would still like to see a full cross-examination of the FM about the exact timing, and nature and circumstances of her drive, asking her to fit it within the other activities which form her narrative. Staggering that this hasn't already been done though.

I think the bike riding is critical. Omitted by both FM and FGM. When reintroduced in WWT podcast it was possibly out of place Imo..They then were saying it was before breakfast as first activity. ie trying to make out it occurred before breakfast when the FF had already left.

I think this mistake in reintroducing the bike riding in WWT podcast was why they subpoenaed the podcast records as evidence

 

[truecrimepath]

The bonnet being warm might be significant. I drove my own vehicle 1.5km yesterday, first drive of the day, it didn't heat the bonnet at all. Squat, nothing.

Hopefully, the cops have tested the FGM car to see how long driving it takes for the engine to heat up enough it can be felt on the bonnet.

Theory:

The FGM car was taken out twice, the first time the engine got hot, either by driving further than 1.2kms and/or exiting the car leaving it to idle for several minutes, it's still heating up through the idle. It's hot when she gets back and it starts to cool.

The second time was only a short drive say 2kms down to Batar Creek Road and back, a round trip. Not enough for the engine to heat up so it's warm to touch UNLESS there was a residual warmth from the first drive and that 2kms gave it a bump.

We know the FGM said in her walkthrough that she didn't drive anywhere after 8 AM, I can remember seeing a statement where 'that the FGM went out that morning.'

Getting the Bonnet hot means that the 9.37 time frame for the photo is now in question. It still possible the trip down to Batar creek road was just the end of a much longer continuous journey. Maybe she waited there so as to be intentionally seen.

 

[truecrimepath]

You know what makes me really sad? Is that he didn’t even get time for a bath or shower before he died. So he’s out there somewhere, un-cared for, in a dirty state, he wet his nappy / pull-up that morning so his bum probably still had a bit of wee smell or residue on it (one would need a bath or shower to really get urine completely off a little kid), he’s got dirty feet and he is dressed in a flimsy cheap costume from Bali, probably has no shoes on, and he’s just left there.

He gets:

No dignified burial
He’s left for dead, dirty and un-bathed
He is shoeless
He doesn’t have his favourite toys with him
He is all alone in the bush
He is away from everyone who may have loved him
His sister had to ride home a few days later in the family car with his car seat still in the car, and no one sitting in that seat

This is a boy that had the State of NSW as their parent, legally.

And people wonder why the NSW police have thrown everything at the chance to find him. Well that’s why.

We have to find him. It’s not fair for him to be out there, alone in the bush. He is a child of the State. He had no chance at having a decent life once he was put into care.

People have a right to know where he is. His parents who gave birth to him have a right to know where he is.

I want answers. I want to know where William is and what happened to him.

I am sick of hearing lie after lie after lie. I am sick of Clare and Alice building their career on marketing this case. It should be illegal to sell merchandise out the front of a Coronial Inquest, and they best not have their toddler ribbons on display at Lidcombe next week. How dare they monetise the senseless demise of this child.

I think Australia has waited long enough. For the truth, as ugly as it may be.

This will I am afraid will require someone to be completely truthful. I am afraid a lot of what we see will be salvaging the careers and reputation of those involved in the investigation. They may not want the truth to come out if it makes them look like fools.

 

[Wallace52]

I think the bike riding is critical. Omitted by both FM and FGM. When reintroduced in WWT podcast it was possibly out of place Imo..They then were saying it was before breakfast as first activity. ie trying to make out it occurred before breakfast when the FF had already left.

I think this mistake in reintroducing the bike riding in WWT podcast was why they subpoenaed the podcast records as evidence

It’s in their police statements.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

It’s in their police statements.

Really? So their walk throughs differs to police statements? Apologies

I wonder if it's would be possible to load witness statements at head of thread as reference source

 

[stormbird]

"Untold story of William Tyrrell: Dan Box Pt.1", I Catch Killers (season 4, episode 214) 03 Nov 2024

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/t...ox-pt1/audio/3a8ea0d2836f2351c18f73967b5c8fca

 

[Angry Red Bull]

For those with kind wishes my mum is still with us. CT scan shows no sign of trouble..Did another scan designed to show arterial flow to brain yet to hear results.

 

[stormbird]

Really? So their walk throughs differs to police statements? Apologies

I wonder if it's would be possible to load witness statements at head of thread as reference source

I'd like to know what the deal is with witness statements. If the coroner releases them after they've been redacted, presumably that means it's okay for the public to see them? But in one of the Witness podcasts Dan Box talks about some statements being handed around or sent to him as though it's something that shouldn't happen. So are we allowed to see them or not? If reporters can view them and then possibly misreport the facts, IMO we should be able to check the primary source for ourselves. On the other hand, if I was a witness in a court case, I'd hate the idea that anyone including the biggest menaces and wackos could see possibly personal information.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

I'd like to know what the deal is with witness statements. If the coroner releases them after they've been redacted, presumably that means it's okay for the public to see them? But in one of the Witness podcasts Dan Box talks about some statements being handed around or sent to him as though it's something that shouldn't happen. So are we allowed to see them or not? If reporters can view them and then possibly misreport the facts, IMO we should be able to check the primary source for ourselves. On the other hand, if I was a witness in a court case, I'd hate the idea that anyone including the biggest menaces and wackos could see possibly personal information.

I personally saw this happen at the inquest once someone obtained Legal representation.

It was stated in open court at the start of the second week in Sydney, that anyone with a copy of the brief must sign NPO's ( not for publication orders )

 

[31550]

Really? So their walk throughs differs to police statements? Apologies

I wonder if it's would be possible to load witness statements at head of thread as reference source

I believe publication of the copies of witness statements which are in circulation would contravene court orders, so it's probably inappropriate to post them in their entirety in this forum. Unfortunately.

 

[js47]

So! …. Bike riding could have happened before breakfast.
That would mean William et al. Ate the night before at Macas then breakfast at what 8.30 who knows.
The point I am making is if he did not have a bath/shower he also DID NOT EAT FOR WHAT ABOUT 14hours?