Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Wallace52]

‘Waving’ - is there a similar arm movement to ‘ throwing’ involved ?

Waving/throwing/chucking shoes; it’s all just semantics isn’t it…

 

[Wallace52]

Just came across this clip of Box and N Young furiously editing out the bio father and bio mothers names from their podcast now that he’s been reminded of the NPO protecting their identities.

 

[shorsky]

The truck driver is likely to just say he saw her

2 days in and there’s no new information & no hard questions asked, afaik.

Craddock started off yesterday saying that a thorough & methodical investigation had been carried out and there was no sign of William .

They present the Police ‘theory’ that has nothing to support it so in fact it’s nothing but ‘words’.

Today the Coroner stops proceeding to remind everyone "I pause to say there is actually no evidence that anyone has been seen placing a body here or anywhere else," she said.

The ‘experts’ so far giving evidence have provided nothing worthwhile. … other than perhaps leading to the discounting of any theory that William was in the ‘dig’ area.

I’m starting to think it’s all a waste of time, and a waste of more tax payer $.

Poor little William.

 

[Wallace52]

William Tyrrell inquest: foster mother abused outside court after police allege she may have buried toddler

Counsel assisting warns ‘fairness is deserved by all’ after inquest hears foster mother may have disposed of three-year-old’s body following accidental death in 2014

www.theguardian.com

Sgt Robyn Ross, the only data analyst on the strike force Rosann team over the past four years, told the court on Tuesday that by August 2024 there were over 1,700 persons of interest in the case. Of those, 732 were deemed low risk, while there were 79 outstanding names requiring analysis.

Given the volume of names, Ross said the team used government data to eliminate people without cars registered in their names and those without a licence.

The people who were without cars registered in their names and those without a licence were only eliminated from one list…. Which was the list of people who were able to be linked to cars…. They were not eliminated as such, they were moved to another list, Sgt Robyn Ross explained that she most certainly realised that people could be driving without a licence, or driving someone else’s car.

 

[stormbird]

But you would think this person would come forward.

"Paul S said he saw or heard a noisy 4WD go that way earlier in the week."

Really! Just a thought..... Could FF have visited the area in his new 4WD in the weeks before? Could be up and back in a day. (Not necessarily the car PS saw.) Have a bit of a drive through the state forest to find a nice quiet spot that is good for digging.

Why would the person come forward, though, LRitz? As far as I know, no one was looking for them, and presumably they hadn't done anything wrong. My point was just that Paul S at No.43 claimed to have seen them earlier in the week, which means that it was possible at that time for a 4WD to use the fire trail.

Paul also claimed to have seen a Land Rover Freelander visiting FGM's on the Thursday afternoon. Just my opinion, I wonder if he was actually remembering the fosters' Land Rover Discovery early the next morning as he went past FGM's on his walk. But is that what your suggestion about an FF daytrip is referring to?

From News.com.au, 20 Aug 2019:

'On the day before William vanished, Mr Savage had seen a car he had not seen before or since “roar” up the street towards the fire trail.

He described it in a statement to police soon afterwards as a “dull red-coloured Nissan Patrol wagon, a 90s model with a square type build”.

In the late afternoon of that day, Mr Savage also saw a vehicle he believed to be a Land Rover Freelander visit the home of William’s foster grandmother.'

 

[Wallace52]

Why would the person come forward, though, LRitz? As far as I know, no one was looking for them, and presumably they hadn't done anything wrong. My point was just that Paul S at No.43 claimed to have seen them earlier in the week, which means that it was possible at that time for a 4WD to use the fire trail.

Paul also claimed to have seen a Land Rover Freelander visiting FGM's on the Thursday afternoon. Just my opinion, I wonder if he was actually remembering the fosters' Land Rover Discovery early the next morning as he went past FGM's on his walk. But is that what your suggestion about an FF daytrip is referring to?

From News.com.au, 20 Aug 2019:

'On the day before William vanished, Mr Savage had seen a car he had not seen before or since “roar” up the street towards the fire trail.

He described it in a statement to police soon afterwards as a “dull red-coloured Nissan Patrol wagon, a 90s model with a square type build”.

In the late afternoon of that day, Mr Savage also saw a vehicle he believed to be a Land Rover Freelander visit the home of William’s foster grandmother.'

Maybe the Freelander was driven by the FGM boyfriend?

And before we get weird about the idea - us oldies like you have some companionship too!

 

[stormbird]

I find it amazing that people recall 10.05 did they look at there watches and say, “oh look at that it is 10.05”
No you would say it was about 10 bla bla bla.

The times given in the article on Monday were even stranger, IMO, and I wondered what they were based on:

"It was determined the car was heard by the Crabbes about 10.08am to 10.13am, which was around the time William was meant to have disappeared."
- News.com.au, 04 Nov 2024

 

[stormbird]

Maybe the Freelander was driven by the FGM boyfriend?

And before we get weird about the idea - us oldies like you have some companionship too!

Maybe the Freelander was driven by anyone whatsoever. Is there a reason you want to introduce the idea of a boyfriend for FGM or your own advanced age?

 

[stormbird]

How thorough was the FGM’s house searched on the 12th by the pol.
Was it just a walk through?
FF was missing the next morning. When was he found on the second time at the fire trail? The one the pol told him not to go there?
In his walk through he was looking to see if a shoe had been lost by William.
Has FF been considered a POI in moving a corpse.
The fire trail leads to CH river.

"The fire trail leads to CH river." How?! You may as well say the Hume Highway leads to Darwin. They'll both get you on the road, but not in the right direction.

 

[BFew]

The reported inquest agenda for today (Wednesday)

1. Truck Driver
2. (Closed Court) witnesses electronically recorded interviews*2
3. Foster Mother evidence to NSW CC evidence replayed.

Truckie to testify as William Tyrrell probe continues

A truck driver in the area when William Tyrrell's foster mum is accused of disposing of the boy's...

www.canberratimes.com.au

'Truckie to testify as William Tyrrell probe continues'​

'Updated November 6 2024 - 3:31am, first published 3:30am
...
As the inquest continues on Wednesday, a truck driver who passed through the neighbourhood on the day the toddler vanished is expected to give evidence of what he did at the time and who he encountered.

The inquest will then view two electronically recorded interviews by police of another key witness, who cannot be named or identified, in 2014 and again in 2022.

This will occur in a closed court session.

Footage of the foster mother giving evidence before the NSW Crime Commission will also be played before the inquest comes to a close.
...'

 

[js47]

"The fire trail leads to CH river." How?! You may as well say the Hume Highway leads to Darwin. They'll both get you on the road, but not in the right direction.

Yes but you could have taken William there. The FM knows a place the pol don’t know about

 

[js47]

Today will be a lot to get through so it does not look as though the truck driver has a lot to say.
Something like…’ I drove a long BCR I saw a lady waving at Cobb kept going at (?)’.

 

[js47]

I think BF post will continue on into the future. Nothing will be achieved with this.
I was reading back through some posts FM went into great detail about time of tea 10am tea has to steep 2 inches left in cup but when SC Rowley asked her who was at home she said she vaguely thinks her Mother and L.
Mmmmm! She thinks her ‘son’ has been abducted but is not quite sure where L is?
Dep. Coroner really give some thought into her answers. No time for weak tea. Let it steep.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Fact: FM said she drove to riding school and saw truck
Fact: that driver has come forward & will give evidence
Fact: the LE theory even now was W was placed at Cobb & co
Fact: there is no forensic evidence nor cadaver indications at that site
Fact: head injuries can cause immediate death but so too slow death from bleeding/ swelling

Speculation: the LE theory could be explained IF W was placed at the site whilst still in coma and was moved soon after also in coma

 

[Awakening]

I thought we heard it was confirmed that the post lady did a much earlier trip that day, so what they heard could not have been the postie.

I believe there was also some discussion between Mr & Mrs Crabbe re the time the heard the vehicle, as each had a different opinion.

We did. It just shows you how much conflicting information is out there.

 

[31550]

Maybe the Freelander was driven by anyone whatsoever. Is there a reason you want to introduce the idea of a boyfriend for FGM or your own advanced age?

It's one avenue of investigation that IMO was never pursued to a great extent. In these type of cases police should always start with people connected to the family or the property and work outwards. If the FGM had close friends who visited the property regularly, they should have been investigated thoroughly.
People don't go to that end of Benaroon Drive without a reason. If William was abducted it was likely by someone who knew he would / might be there - the odds of an opportunistic abduction in that location are very low IMO.

 

[Awakening]

The times given in the article on Monday were even stranger, IMO, and I wondered what they were based on:

"It was determined the car was heard by the Crabbes about 10.08am to 10.13am, which was around the time William was meant to have disappeared."
- News.com.au, 04 Nov 2024

I can’t find it, but I always thought Mr Crabbe heard the vehicle around 9:30 but Mrs Crabbe around 10:00.

 

[31550]

Fact: FM said she drove to riding school and saw truck
Fact: that driver has come forward & will give evidence
Fact: the LE theory even now was W was placed at Cobb & co
Fact: there is no forensic evidence nor cadaver indications at that site
Fact: head injuries can cause immediate death but so too slow death from bleeding/ swelling

Speculation: the LE theory could be explained IF W was placed at the site whilst still in coma and was moved soon after also in coma

William's scent was not detected off the property. William was not found despite extensive and immediate ground search. William was only 3, not a wanderer, may have been barefoot. William was only out of sight for 5-10 minutes. Hence, William must have been removed by vehicle, as he couldn't have got out of range of the search on foot only.
Very few vehicles travel in that end of the street. Crabb's can hear vehicles from their back yard. They only heard one vehicle, around 10am (approximate time - it was definitely after 9:40 when they returned home and before 10:30 when FF came to see them). (I think Mr Crabb and Mrs Crabb each reported hearing a car, but their estimated times differed slightly).

Other neighbours were coming and going but no suspicious cars were observed in this time period.

One vehicle known to have left the property and returned is FGM car driven by FM.
Truck driver will presumably confirm seeing FM car on BCR.

Conclusion - the only car which can be identified leaving the house is the FGM car, so that is most likely the way William left the property.

FM said she was looking for William in the garden when she received the text from FF 'Home in 5' (original police statement Sep 2014). If the time of the drive is before FF return home, then the drive was made before FM started looking for William. So the drive was not 'looking for William'.

Balance of probability says it was the FM drive which removed William from the property.

All the above is based on fact and logic.
The reasons for the drive are now speculation.

 

[31550]

I can’t find it, but I always thought Mr Crabbe heard the vehicle around 9:30 but Mrs Crabbe around 10:00.

I cant find it either but always thought Mr C said 9:50 and Mrs C said 10:10

 

[LRitz]

Waving/throwing/chucking shoes; it’s all just semantics isn’t it…

What's with the shoes everyone?

If I had to hide shoes I would not throw them out of the car and hope they were not able to be seen. They were bright colours. There were two shoes. How far could you throw them? Wallace52, put yourself in that position, how do you think you would get rid of shoes?

And what if FM had a mistake on her 000 call about shoes. She made lots of other errors and changed her story. In the last photo he does not have shoes, just dirty feet. She could just say in the confusion she thought he had his shoes. Maybe safer than making that trip.

I agree that in the jump off the deck and being a tiger narrative, the shoes are a problem because they are in the photo at the back door. And no mention of putting them on. William disappeared after the photo, and IMO the shoes and anything else incriminating disappeared with him.

 

[LRitz]

Why would the person come forward, though, LRitz? As far as I know, no one was looking for them, and presumably they hadn't done anything wrong. My point was just that Paul S at No.43 claimed to have seen them earlier in the week, which means that it was possible at that time for a 4WD to use the fire trail.

Paul also claimed to have seen a Land Rover Freelander visiting FGM's on the Thursday afternoon. Just my opinion, I wonder if he was actually remembering the fosters' Land Rover Discovery early the next morning as he went past FGM's on his walk. But is that what your suggestion about an FF daytrip is referring to?

From News.com.au, 20 Aug 2019:

'On the day before William vanished, Mr Savage had seen a car he had not seen before or since “roar” up the street towards the fire trail.

He described it in a statement to police soon afterwards as a “dull red-coloured Nissan Patrol wagon, a 90s model with a square type build”.

In the late afternoon of that day, Mr Savage also saw a vehicle he believed to be a Land Rover Freelander visit the home of William’s foster grandmother.'

What I was referring to was the Crabb's evidence of hearing a car on the day, after they returned. If it was not the postie, then another person would have come forward IMO. Sorry for confusion.

Paul Savage said he saw a Land Rover at FGM's on thursday!

I am guessing he would have been a reliable witness. He sounds like the type of guy that knows his makes and models. He keeps a sharp eye out for unusual traffic on their quiet street. At this point he is not a suspect, and would have been trying to be helpful. Why would he make this up? So there is a report of Land Rover at FGM's house. In FGM's walkthrough she is asked what she did Thursday ( A: went to community centre, shopping Lauriton, came home and rested). She does not mention any one visiting her. She would have been home by "late afternoon" Why would there be a car there? What does "visit" mean. Does this mean it is in the driveway. FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. I suppose we don't know his movements or alibis for Thursday.

 

[31550]

FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. I suppose we don't know his movements or alibis for Thursday.

Yes we do. Phone records attached to his and FM police statement. He was working in the morning and called FM to let her know he was going to finish early, so his phone would have been pinging in Sydney. How did he get up to Kendall and back to Sydney in time to pick up FM and the kids around 3pm?

PS: I think an explanation is that Savage possibly became confused about which day he saw the FF "Landrover" in FGM driveway. It would have been there on the Friday and Saturday. I don't think Savage was interviewed formally until some time after William disappeared. Note that Heather savage reported seeing tail lights on the Thursday night around 9pm, which would coincide with the fosters arrival. But she didn't identify the vehicle.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

William's scent was not detected off the property. William was not found despite extensive and immediate ground search. William was only 3, not a wanderer, may have been barefoot. William was only out of sight for 5-10 minutes. Hence, William must have been removed by vehicle, as he couldn't have got out of range of the search on foot only.
Very few vehicles travel in that end of the street. Crabb's can hear vehicles from their back yard. They only heard one vehicle, around 10am (approximate time - it was definitely after 9:40 when they returned home and before 10:30 when FF came to see them). (I think Mr Crabb and Mrs Crabb each reported hearing a car, but their estimated times differed slightly).


Other neighbours were coming and going but no suspicious cars were observed in this time period.

One vehicle known to have left the property and returned is FGM car driven by FM.
Truck driver will presumably confirm seeing FM car on BCR.

Conclusion - the only car which can be identified leaving the house is the FGM car, so that is most likely the way William left the property.

FM said she was looking for William in the garden when she received the text from FF 'Home in 5' (original police statement Sep 2014). If the time of the drive is before FF return home, then the drive was made before FM started looking for William. So the drive was not 'looking for William'.

Balance of probability says it was the FM drive which removed William from the property.

All the above is based on fact and logic.
The reasons for the drive are now speculation.

Sound deductive reasoning. The problem with this sort of testimony is you can create a sound hypothesis but it still remains a hypothesis because there can be enumerate reasons why they just may NOT have heard a car once. Distracted..Were in different part of house... to name 2. Balance of probabilities is the correct answer..that factors in the lower probability of alternative for a car nor heard. So yes.

10.08 to 10.13 is determined time car was heard..that is consistent with my calculated heat on grill not on bonnett though ......Rowley I said was 10.10. Children heard playing approx 9.15 last POL. Collapsed..found. driven away at 10.10.. 3 min drive...Soooo to be consistent with theory, the truck driver would need to testify he saw her in car at Cobb & co at approx 10.15. give or take several minutes either side..

 

[Lady O]

I can’t find it, but I always thought Mr Crabbe heard the vehicle around 9:30 but Mrs Crabbe around 10:00.

He said some time soon after they came home and she said a bit later than that. So any time between 9.30am and 10.10am.

 

[31550]

He said some time soon after they came home and she said a bit later than that. So any time between 9.30am and 10.10am.

The Crabb's had a regular morning exercise routine, so there is some accuracy in their timing. Also it was their habit to have morning tea out on their verandah after their walk, which is how they would hear children or cars. Presumably more difficult to hear from inside the house. Narrows down the time window - when were they outside?
It is clearly well before 10.30 when FF went to see them otherwise they would have said, "Oh we just heard the postie, maybe she saw something?"