Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above initials. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[LRitz]

IMO we don't need leaks. All the evidence is there. As Ron Iddles would say, "The answer is in the file!"
The police actually have everything they need, or at least, everything they are likely to get until William is recovered.
They just haven't put all the pieces of the jigsaw together correctly.
They are still giving the FM the benefit of the doubt that she was a 'good mother', and acted entirely in William's interest.
And they don't have hard evidence to prove otherwise.
And because of this, they are treating the 'drive' as an innocent act.
Whereas I believe the drive had malicious intent.

Hard to put the jigsaw together when pieces are missing. And them the FPs and FGM throw in a few pieces from another puzzle altogether.

 

[Earls Smother]

But my problem with drive by FM in FGM's car is
Why did both the FM and FGM not mention the car drive earlier. Why not just say ...and I quickly searched to the end of the street and on to BCR and turned around. As you mention it is a feasible and understandable option. Was she forgetful of hiding the drive, or was there no drive,
Why did FM not say to neighbour AMS that she had already driven past the bus stop and on to BCR, instead FM walked down to bus stop, and was covering ground she had already searched.
FGM's narrative does not allow time for the drive. FGM walkthrough is confusing who has FD while FM is searching on foot let alone in a car.
The longer time line between missing, immediate vicinity search, house search, and then drive would have given FM plenty of time to phone FF. Or time for FM to ask FGM to phone FF.
Sounds like truck driver Peter was possibly on BCR at a critical time. He remembers specific cars, but not FGM's car.

I can't explain the forgetfulness or incompatible memories, other than stress and panic can do weird things to people. If the FGM died of dementia (I read she had it) there is every chance she was NQR in 2014.

Not phoning the FF could be explained by wanting to find him first, so as not to have to admit he has gone missing under your guardianship.

 

[LRitz]

There was a drive, just not when she said she drove. Imho.

FM Drive or no drive? I still find the whole think a conundrum. So staying undecided

 

[Earls Smother]

I disagree, a hit to the head is not the first thing you would think of. Wandering off, yes. Snake bite yes, hiding yes. It is odd that she mentions this first, as does the foster father.

Not everyone has a high balcony though. I wouldn't think of it where I live now. Previous house I would have.

 

[truecrimepath]

The "evidence" could have simply been that that's where she said she drove to. She may have been seen by some secret witness, but she had admitted to it anyway. It's not like they dug somewhere completely different to where she said she went.

The Coroner directed the dig to determine one way or the other whether the police theory had legs IMO.

The phantom witness again. They hide somewhere in the mind of Detective Inspectors.

 

[LRitz]

I can't explain the forgetfulness or incompatible memories, other than stress and panic can do weird things to people. If the FGM died of dementia (I read she had it) there is every chance she was NQR in 2014.

She was living independently. She remembered what she did on Thursday. She remembered the dice game. Both these are short term memory. She is driving her car into Lauriton on Thursday. She remembers the address of the repair man and when he came. She remembers Williams special orange juice....etc etc.
FGM did not look stressed in her walkthrough - IMO.

Not phoning the FF could be explained by wanting to find him first, so as not to have to admit he has gone missing under your guardianship.

Really? Not how I think to react.

 

[truecrimepath]

Not everyone has a high balcony though. I wouldn't think of it where I live now. Previous house I would have.

You’re confusing me , why bring up the balcony? He was not there.

 

[Kurve]

The phantom witness again. They hide somewhere in the mind of Detective Inspectors.

Do you understand that there are heavy suppression orders still covering a lot of this inquiry? The court has been closed to all members of the public and the press at times.

We already know there's one witness whose testimony is under suppression. It isn't out of the realms of possibility there are more.

 

[LRitz]

The "evidence" could have simply been that that's where she said she drove to. She may have been seen by some secret witness, but she had admitted to it anyway. It's not like they dug somewhere completely different to where she said she went.

The Coroner directed the dig to determine one way or the other whether the police theory had legs IMO.

So there were 3 dig sites maybe done at different times . Is that correct?

The FGM's house, under the high balcony to investigate a possible fall.
The BCR and Cobb and Co near the old riding school - because this is where the FM claimed she had driven. No other witness that we are aware of.
Third site because they thought neighbour PS, who was a suspect at the time, had gone there.

Im not surprised they found nothing. As I recall FM was also pretty confident that nothing would be found.

 

[Earls Smother]

You’re confusing me , why bring up the balcony? He was not there.

She doesn't necessarily know that he hasn't gone there. It is understandable to me that someone living in that house would consider that as one of the worse case scenarios.

 

[truecrimepath]

Do you understand that there are heavy suppression orders still covering a lot of this inquiry? The court has been closed to all members of the public and the press at times.

We already know there's one witness whose testimony is under suppression. It isn't out of the realms of possibility there are more.

Yes I understand, I am not stupid. The problem is that this argument could be used to support any theory.

One would have to argue why a witness who saw her at Batar Creek road would have their testimony suppressed. Are they in witness protection for another reason?

 

[Kurve]

Yes I understand, I am not stupid. The problem is that this argument could be used to support any theory.

One would have to argue why a witness who saw her at Batar Creek road would have their testimony suppressed. Are they in witness protection for another reason?

We can take a pretty good guess that one of the witness's testimony under heavy suppression is under 18yo, so that may factor in. If we can also take a pretty good guess that this particular witness's testimony was previously through these hearings, not under suppression.

Something changed.

Their testimony now has gone under suppression.

 

[31550]

You’re confusing me , why bring up the balcony? He was not there.

FM said that William had played on the balcony earlier that morning. The balcony was accessible from the verandah, - just run round the washing line. It's quite conceivable he went there while playing his Daddy Tiger game. FM and FGM both said he repeatedly ran round the corner. They would not have the angle of vision to ensue he ran all the way round to the front garden and not onto the balcony.

 

[31550]

The case is not unique in that aspect. There are other known abductions where no-one has a clue what has happened and there becomes nothing really to discuss.

The amount of discussion is pretty unique because multiple scenarios remain on the table. Imagine this place if it existed for the Chamberlain case.

I am struggling to think of one involving a toddler from a private residence, under the noses of adult carers and in broad daylight. I mean there is Madeleine McCann, but she was unsupervised, and in a public place not a private home, and it was night-time.

 

[truecrimepath]

We can take a pretty good guess that one of the witness's testimony under heavy suppression is under 18yo, so that may factor in. If we can also take a pretty good guess that this particular witness's testimony was previously through these hearings, not under suppression.

Something changed.

Their testimony now has gone under suppression.

Being removed from the FM and FF could be that reason.

 

[31550]

Being removed from the FM and FF could be that reason.

That happened in November 2021.

 

[Kurve]

Being removed from the FM and FF could be that reason.

Could be but the point is, we don't know.

There's other information that's been suppressed. Dan Box latest episode also referred to heavy secrecy and suppression orders, when most of us at this stage are thinking 'why?'.

 

[LRitz]

JS 47 you said -....
I WILL TELL YOU THIS YOU COUKD NOT DO A TRIP TO KENDALL AND BACK BY EARLY AFTERNOON ON THURSDAY AND EHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN HIS OFFICE TELEPHONES ETC.
Paul Savage said he saw a Land Rover at FGM's on thursday!


JS 47, i have been thinking about this again and your comment about FF being at work. I think it is possible and at the moment do not have any evidence to disprove this. Are you sure JS47 that this is impossible. What is the evidence? Do you know what time he left work? I don't recall this being reported.

Other witness evidence has been discussed. Ron Chapman was discussed and thought a real possible sighting. But PS is just dismissed. Maybe it is on the file but no one has gone back over this. And for quite a time GJ suspected PS so would not have taken any notice of this. But PS is not a suspect. He was just a (unlucky) neighbour that was caught up in all of this.

I am guessing PS would have been a reliable witness. He sounds like the type of guy that knows his makes and models. He keeps a sharp eye out for unusual traffic on their quiet street. At this point he is not a suspect, and would have been trying to be helpful. Why would he make this up?
PS reports a Land Rover at FGM's house on Thursday afternoon. That is very specific.
FGM's walkthrough she is asked what she did Thursday ( A: went to community centre, shopping Lauriton, came home and rested). She does not mention any one visiting her. Why would there be a car there?

FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. Leave Sydney at 12:00 and arrive Kendall at 3:40. Leave Kendall at 4:30 and drive 2 hours back to Heatherbrae McDonalds.

Who picked up the kids from preschool? Who dropped off the cats? FF could have left his phone with FM. The investigation I bet never looked at the Sydney to McDonalds part of the drive. They had the CCTV of all the family at McDonalds, so assumed they all travelled together. (Assume nothing).

And why would FF be in Kendall earlier on Thursday? I don't know. Possibilities are making plans and preparation for Friday and making sure that FGM is on board and has her story straight. FGM has to say that FF left and then she had breakfast with the children and FF was" definitely' not there. But was she told to say he left at 8 or 9?

 

[Kurve]

Outside of those whose names are under suppression, please make the effort to type them out without abbreviation.

It's starting to look like alphabet soup in here.

Thanks.

 

[31550]

JS 47 you said -....
I WILL TELL YOU THIS YOU COUKD NOT DO A TRIP TO KENDALL AND BACK BY EARLY AFTERNOON ON THURSDAY AND EHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN HIS OFFICE TELEPHONES ETC.
Paul Savage said he saw a Land Rover at FGM's on thursday!


JS 47, i have been thinking about this again and your comment about FF being at work. I think it is possible and at the moment do not have any evidence to disprove this. Are you sure JS47 that this is impossible. What is the evidence? Do you know what time he left work? I don't recall this being reported.

Other witness evidence has been discussed. Ron Chapman was discussed and thought a real possible sighting. But PS is just dismissed. Maybe it is on the file but no one has gone back over this. And for quite a time GJ suspected PS so would not have taken any notice of this. But PS is not a suspect. He was just a (unlucky) neighbour that was caught up in all of this.

I am guessing PS would have been a reliable witness. He sounds like the type of guy that knows his makes and models. He keeps a sharp eye out for unusual traffic on their quiet street. At this point he is not a suspect, and would have been trying to be helpful. Why would he make this up?
PS reports a Land Rover at FGM's house on Thursday afternoon. That is very specific.
FGM's walkthrough she is asked what she did Thursday ( A: went to community centre, shopping Lauriton, came home and rested). She does not mention any one visiting her. Why would there be a car there?

FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. Leave Sydney at 12:00 and arrive Kendall at 3:40. Leave Kendall at 4:30 and drive 2 hours back to Heatherbrae McDonalds.

Who picked up the kids from preschool? Who dropped off the cats? FF could have left his phone with FM. The investigation I bet never looked at the Sydney to McDonalds part of the drive. They had the CCTV of all the family at McDonalds, so assumed they all travelled together. (Assume nothing).

And why would FF be in Kendall earlier on Thursday? I don't know. Possibilities are making plans and preparation for Friday and making sure that FGM is on board and has her story straight. FGM has to say that FF left and then she had breakfast with the children and FF was" definitely' not there. But was she told to say he left at 8 or 9?

This is all pretty tangential. I think you are referring to Savage giving evidence at the inquest, years after the event. He never alleged in 2014 that he had seen the FF vehicle on the Thursday. It was his wife who saw tail-lights in the driveway on the Thursday night. Savage has no reason to lie, but by the time of the inquest he was pretty old, his wife had died, and he had lived through the trauma of Jubelin trying to set him up for William's disappearance. It's likely he got the days wrong, and simply saw FFs car on the Friday or another day.
Further, I don't see how FF could drive all the way to Kendall and back before cat drop-off and day-care pickup when he is supposed to be working - phone records and highway CCTV would easily give this away.
Reddest of red herrings IMO.

 

[Wallace52]

This is a portion of Hudson’s log from 20-22 Sept 2014. I thought it might be helpful to y’all. Have a blessed day.

 

[31550]

This is a portion of Hudson’s log from 20-22 Sept 2014. I thought it might be helpful to y’all. Have a blessed day.

What's the suggestion? Maybe there were cadaver indications near Cobb&Co, but they were attributed to a dead cow?
Or are you highlighting the bit about shutting the FGM up?

 

[LRitz]

This is all pretty tangential. I think you are referring to Savage giving evidence at the inquest, years after the event. He never alleged in 2014 that he had seen the FF vehicle on the Thursday. It was his wife who saw tail-lights in the driveway on the Thursday night. Savage has no reason to lie, but by the time of the inquest he was pretty old, his wife had died, and he had lived through the trauma of Jubelin trying to set him up for William's disappearance. It's likely he got the days wrong, and simply saw FFs car on the Friday or another day.
Further, I don't see how FF could drive all the way to Kendall and back before cat drop-off and day-care pickup when he is supposed to be working - phone records and highway CCTV would easily give this away.
Reddest of red herrings IMO.

Ron Chapman comes up with a delayed story but is given some credence. Neighbour Mr Savage is given none.

Again, do you know who picked up at the preschool. I am happy to be disproved if there is evidence. The round trip is 3hrs 40min + 2 hrs by my calculation. So total time 5 hours 40 minutes. So could have been done if left Sydney at 12:00 and be at McDonalds by 6:30. FM could have done the pick up.
Phone records: FF left phone with FM. Possible

 

[31550]

Ron Chapman comes up with a delayed story but is given some credence. Neighbour Mr Savage is given none.

Again, do you know who picked up at the preschool. I am happy to be disproved if there is evidence. The round trip is 3hrs 40min + 2 hrs by my calculation. So total time 5 hours 40 minutes. So could have been done if left Sydney at 12:00 and be at McDonalds by 6:30. FM could have done the pick up.
Phone records: FF left phone with FM. Possible

Ron Chapman has been given less credence than Savage. Savage was notably strange and talked to himself. The postie had an AVO against him, and there were other suggestions. Chapman was an active community member - a flower judge, so had a very good eye for detail and good memory. But his story was not supported by his own family, and his story was never able to be corroborated.
I give Savage credence for remembering any details about the incident so many years later, and after everything he'd been through. Just don't think what he said is reliable evidence that FF was there in the afternoon. This would be such an easy thing for SFR to investigate. It's fanciful to even be suggesting at this stage.
Savage got the day wrong.
FM got the right/left wrong.
FGM got the breakfast time and number for breakfast wrong.
Stuff happens.
Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable.

 

[Wallace52]

What's the suggestion? Maybe there were cadaver indications near Cobb&Co, but they were attributed to a dead cow?
Or are you highlighting the bit about shutting the FGM up?

All of it.