Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[alwaysintrigued]

The problem with this is the testimony of Sharpley who says FM came to her door from where she could hear a male voice calling William . Then Sharpley went down to the bus shelter, returned, got FM, and took her down to Lydene Heslop. A distance of 300m each way. Then FM walked back up, dialled 000 when Sharpley was still at close hand. Then when police arrived FM was in the street. So when was the drive? Doesn't fit.

The problem is that you are making your assumptions on info from 10 yrs ago. What if Anne Maree's times were out? People do get times wrong ( not just the Fm IMO ) , I don't think anyone was constantly watching the time that morning.

All the neighbours have been interviewed years ago as well as others.

Thankfully the Coroner has these statements.

Just maybe what you think you have known for 10 years is not correct?

Best to keep an open mind IMO

 

[Wallace52]

Then why was Tialeigh Palmer's foster dad named?

I don’t know. That’s a good point.

Because she had Williams sister?
She doesn't have his sister in her care anymore.
Does she have any foster kids atm?

 

[InTheBleachers]

Even the SFR investigation. I've never understood why a whole taskforce would focus on one theory at a time. That is literally trying to make things fit.

You don't need a whole taskforce to question Savage, Spedding, FM etc. They all stand around watching people dig holes, while leaving Beacroft to wade through the CCTV footage. IMO the CCTV footage will prove very relevant - there should have been more dedicated researchers spending time on that, despite it being a tedious, mostly fruitless task.

When the open finding comes in, they will probably have 2 cold case detectives look at the CCTV footage over the next 40 years.

With so few unknown vehicles in a town like that, it really shouldn't be that hard to narrow it down to a small number that remain of interest. I mean, do we even know who solid, no-neck, pale, short red-haired guy who stared at FM is? He is clearly not a local or he would have been ID'd straight away.

And there is the death bed confession that seems to have fallen to the wayside. Frank Abbott has no provable alibi, phone not moving for 3 days after WT disappeared, took associates cars all the time because they left their keys in them, is a petty thief who broke into unattended homes, is a convicted child sex offender, spread all kinds of stories about how people should look at his mate for WT's disappearance, young child's scream heard coming from the area of his home.

 

[Wallace52]

Wallace52, when you wonder re ‘SC: 'Did you decide to hide his body rather than let your mother feel a sense of responsibility for that?'
FM: 'No'.

Are you thinking SC is suggesting FM doesn’t want FGM to feel responsible for William’s death because she has a house with a dangerously high verandah ?

Well, I guess they were trying any thing in their attempts to get her to say something, but I think that’s a long shot of a suggestion.

I think in this line of questioning, SC is trying to be kind to her and give her the benefit of the doubt.

I think it is possible that he was on an exclusionary time out on the veranda, and maybe the FGM suggested he be disciplined this way because he was being too boisterous and ‘masculine’. IMO

Or maybe FM put him on a chair and encouraged him to lean over to see if he could “see daddy coming home” - who even knows.

 

[Lady O]

I'd think about betting the farm on it that the cops are pretty sure and it's not all opinion.

Proving it might be a different story.

Believing and proving (providing evidence) are two different things. Plenty of people on here believe something that some of us think is just crazy. How big is your farm?

 

[Kurve]

Believing and proving (providing evidence) are two different things. Plenty of people on here believe something that some of us think is just crazy. How big is your farm?

You think the cops went down this route and this far on nothing but a vibe?

 

[31550]

The problem is that you are making your assumptions on info from 10 yrs ago. What if Anne Maree's times were out? People do get times wrong ( not just the Fm IMO ) , I don't think anyone was constantly watching the time that morning.

All the neighbours have been interviewed years ago as well as others.

Thankfully the Coroner has these statements.

Just maybe what you think you have known for 10 years is not correct?

Best to keep an open mind IMO

Information provided closer to an event is far more likely to be accurate than that provided years later.
I am not relying on any times provided by Anne Marie. I can't. She provided no times only a sequence of events. The sequence of events is then fitted to confirmed times ( FF returns 10.35, 000 call at 10:57) - these times are not in dispute. 22 minutes.
There is nothing closed minded in the above. Open to any other explanation which FITS the confirmed timeline.
The drive requires at least 8-10 minutes.
FM sees Anne Maree at ~10:40. Walks to near BCR and back looking for William. That accounts for 8-10 minutes. So we are up to 10:48-10:50. Then the 000 call is ~10:56. How do we fit the drive in?

 

[Awakening]

the FM falsely stated he was there when she rang Spedding. (my bolding)
So FM statement to police is wrong on the time.
The details are also wrong - he is running late. But he starts his meeting early.
The first statement does not include the 9:03 phone call, but FM later says FF is there at the time of the phone call.

My question is why is there a problem with the this evidence that is an event before 9:37, when everyone was still happy? It just gets me thinking.
If you were working backwards, 9:16 for meeting.Certain. What time would FF have left the house if he drove directly to Lakewood - 9 to 10 minute drive and a couple of minutes to set up and - you come up with a time a bit after 9 or 9ish.
There is lots of discussion over possible events with no proof, falls from balconies and bike rides, but ignore or forgive something that does not fit the jigsaw.

It was more than a couple of minutes to set up. From memory FF allowed 20 minutes because it was demonstrating software and he wanted to run through it first before presenting it to the potential client.

 

[Awakening]

The deputy coroner made a point of saying,
“I pause to say there is actually no evidence that anyone has been seen placing a body here or anywhere else.”

How about saying, "There is actually no evidence that supports anything the FM has told us about her movements that morning"? There is no evidence that William ever 'went missing'.

There is no evidence that the FM looked anywhere for William before the 000 call. There is no evidence that the FF looked anywhere for William before the 000 call. There is no evidence that the FGM looked anywhere for William at all. There is no evidence for the FM's whereabouts between 9:37 and 10:40. There is no evidence for the FGM's whereabouts between 9:37 and around 12:30 (Wendy Hudson) that I can find.

If nobody can prove they 'looked for' William until after 10:40am, then why is it assumed he went missing so much earlier? Why is it assumed he went missing at all?

That may have been covered during the inquests or is in the file.

It seems like you are looking for transcripts of all the inquests but that won’t be publicly available yet.

Media only have about 400 words to report on.

 

[InTheBleachers]

You think the cops went down this route and this far on nothing but a vibe?

I think Lonergan was on the initial strike force and with everyone else now being gone he had a chance to test his theory. Despite there having been no evidence of that theory found by 2 previous investigations into the FM. What would they have to lose, besides credibility?

The Coroner thought they should check Batar Creek Road intensively, to rule that theory in or out.

And here we are. Back to more than 700 persons of interest, or Persons Named.

 

[LRitz]

I don't have any problem accepting this part of FM testimony. She decided she wanted to do some washing. FGM told her the washing machine was broken so she couldn't and would have to wait for Spedding to fix it in his own time as that was the way they did things. FM being her entitled self thought this was not good enough - I want the machine NOW - Spedding can drop whatever he is doing and come and fix the machine NOW. Lucky for Spedding he missed her call and didn't have to deal with her, except that he got thrown under the bus and his life completely ruined by missing that call!

Agree. One possibility is that FM wants machine fixed and quickly. OK. But still bothers me (if that is allowed).

The time of the call is just after 9:00. It was not a real emergency, but she calls very first thing. And then omits the call in her first statement, and the time of the call could have helped with the timeline of what happened that morning. We are told other specific information (eg allegedly that William was throwing dice) - that did not add much to help find him. And the FGM says there are no calls. My guess is the FM would have told FGM she is going to call him. Maybe they did not think the police would look at the phone records.
So Im keeping it on the table.

 

[Awakening]

It doesn't make any sense through the scale of this, careers ruined, million dollar rewards and campaigns that probably cost more, for the cops to have upended it all to such huge risk, for them to have nothing.

They could simply have shut up, given further benefit of any doubt to the FM and protected their investigations.

I'd bet a lot of money that they do actually believe the FM is responsible. They've got something.

I’ve wondered if the big dig was only one such dig that took place.

 

[Awakening]

Evidence for the 11:30 time?
FF arrived home at 10:35 not 11:36.
FM 2014 statement says she went down near BCR before dialling 000 (300 metre walk each way)
How does Anne Marie NOT see FM driving out or back?

To be fair, poster has provided various sources for the 11:30 time, you have not.

We the public cannot give you evidence.

Where’s your evidence for a different time?

Maybe AMS was doing a number two when FM seized her opportunity to take the drive.

 

[Awakening]

No evidence for your 11:30 claim then, that's fine.
It doesn't matter anyway.
She says she went to the end of street near BCR and back after meeting Anne Marie and before dialling 000.
So either she lied about this or she lied about the drive. She cannot have done both at the same time.

I think it’s a fair assumption that FM lied.

Have you got AMS’s police statement, or are you relying on FM’s statement for accuracy?

 

[31550]

That may have been covered during the inquests or is in the file.

It seems like you are looking for transcripts of all the inquests but that won’t be publicly available yet.

Media only have about 400 words to report on.

Yes I agree, it may be selective reporting by the media rather than selective statements by the DC.
Only people at the inquest can say which.

 

[Awakening]

Even the SFR investigation. I've never understood why a whole taskforce would focus on one theory at a time. That is literally trying to make things fit.

You don't need a whole taskforce to question Savage, Spedding, FM etc. They all stand around watching people dig holes, while leaving Beacroft to wade through the CCTV footage. IMO the CCTV footage will prove very relevant - there should have been more dedicated researchers spending time on that, despite it being a tedious, mostly fruitless task.

When the open finding comes in, they will probably have 2 cold case detectives look at the CCTV footage over the next 40 years.

With so few unknown vehicles in a town like that, it really shouldn't be that hard to narrow it down to a small number that remain of interest. I mean, do we even know who solid, no-neck, pale, short red-haired guy who stared at FM is? He is clearly not a local or he would have been ID'd straight away.

I’m not convinced they only looked at one theory. I think they only publicly looked at one theory.

 

[LRitz]

Believe what you want. I give you the answers & because they don't suit you is not my problem.

I consider it a fact, it was repeated over & over at the inquest by Mr Craddock

Just because it is repeated over and over does not make it a fact.
There is missing time in FF's drive to Lakewood.
He could not have been at the house at 9:03 at the time of phone call to Spedding.
Or lets discount the whole tennis CCTV as wrong because you can't trust digital information. ( But lets trust the digital camera equipment of the fosters) Note : I did not mention you know what.

Believe what you want. I give you the answers & because they don't suit you is not my problem.

 

[Awakening]

And there is the death bed confession that seems to have fallen to the wayside. Frank Abbott has no provable alibi, phone not moving for 3 days after WT disappeared, took associates cars all the time because they left their keys in them, is a petty thief who broke into unattended homes, is a convicted child sex offender, spread all kinds of stories about how people should look at his mate for WT's disappearance, young child's scream heard coming from the area of his home.

I thought FA had been ruled out. Can’t remember where I read it though.

 

[InTheBleachers]

I thought FA had been ruled out. Can’t remember where I read it though.

I think ruled out for the present strike force means dropped to the wayside.

 

[Awakening]

I think in this line of questioning, SC is trying to be kind to her and give her the benefit of the doubt.

I think it is possible that he was on an exclusionary time out on the veranda, and maybe the FGM suggested he be disciplined this way because he was being too boisterous and ‘masculine’. IMO

Or maybe FM put him on a chair and encouraged him to lean over to see if he could “see daddy coming home” - who even knows.

My boys are now teens, but both very active boys. I’ve been guilty of saying is that dad/nan/pa coming? Why don’t you wait out the front for them? When I knew full well they wouldn’t be there yet.

Gave me 5 minutes to make a cup of tea, go to the loo or a bit of peace and quiet.

 

[Awakening]

Information provided closer to an event is far more likely to be accurate than that provided years later.
I am not relying on any times provided by Anne Marie. I can't. She provided no times only a sequence of events. The sequence of events is then fitted to confirmed times ( FF returns 10.35, 000 call at 10:57) - these times are not in dispute. 22 minutes.
There is nothing closed minded in the above. Open to any other explanation which FITS the confirmed timeline.
The drive requires at least 8-10 minutes.
FM sees Anne Maree at ~10:40. Walks to near BCR and back looking for William. That accounts for 8-10 minutes. So we are up to 10:48-10:50. Then the 000 call is ~10:56. How do we fit the drive in?

Where are you getting this time from????

 

[Kurve]

I think Lonergan was on the initial strike force and with everyone else now being gone he had a chance to test his theory. Despite there having been no evidence of that theory found by 2 previous investigations into the FM. What would they have to lose, besides credibility?

Losing further credibility imo is not a risk the brass would have been prepared to take.

'Testing a theory' isn't great framing when dozens of cops over three weeks dug up a huge area on Batar Creek Road and turned Kendall upside down again over three weeks on NEW INFORMATION.

I believe press sympathetic to the Fosters first used the word 'theory' to undermine the cops and it's still going on.

 

[Awakening]

Agree. One possibility is that FM wants machine fixed and quickly. OK. But still bothers me (if that is allowed).

The time of the call is just after 9:00. It was not a real emergency, but she calls very first thing. And then omits the call in her first statement, and the time of the call could have helped with the timeline of what happened that morning. We are told other specific information (eg allegedly that William was throwing dice) - that did not add much to help find him. And the FGM says there are no calls. My guess is the FM would have told FGM she is going to call him. Maybe they did not think the police would look at the phone records.
So Im keeping it on the table.

I find nothing odd about FM ringing the repair man. I would do the same if it were my parents who were still waiting for the machine to be fixed.

I would also be conscious that my parents would have even more washing if we stayed with them - sheets and towels.

I would be hoping it could be fixed before we left so I could do a load.

 

[31550]

To be fair, poster has provided various sources for the 11:30 time, you have not.

We the public cannot give you evidence.

Where’s your evidence for a different time?

Maybe AMS was doing a number two when FM seized her opportunity to take the drive.

I did provide a source for the Lydene Heslop exchange - the FM 2014 statement where she says she went to the end of the street near BCR after talking to Anne Maree and before dialling 000. Lydene lives at that location.
It doesn't really matter whether the interchange with Lydene was then or later. What matters is that it is a 300 metre walk each way, looking for William, which allows no time to be driving to Cobb and Co and back during that small timeframe after walking and before dialling 000.
It's the timing that matters, not whether she spoke to Lydene or not.
I think we will find that the exchange with Lydene was earlier than 11.30 but it's not really important.
It was another poster saying that because FM spoke to Lydene at 11.30 she DID NOT walk down Benaroon earlier so my timeline was wrong. She herself said she DID walk down and back before calling 000. There's no "I don't remember, or I don't know why I said that" in this instance.

 

[Awakening]

I also don’t get what the issue is with FM saying FF was there when she made the call when he wasn’t.

Seems a fairly easy and innocuous error. He left around 9. She made the call around 9 and therefore wrongly assumed FF was still there.

Its pretty chaotic when you have two young kids, so you are not watching the clock.

Around 9, could be anywhere from 8:45 to 9:15 in my opinion.