Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Earls Smother]

Casts no doubt on Sharpley's testimony then. Sharpley had no knowledge of the drive because if it happened at all it was before 10.35, and Sharpley knew, heard or saw nothing before this time. FM didn't see Sharpley till 10.40. Totally consistent with everything Sharpley has said.

Then the police theory doesn't seem to add up? Or did FM speak to the Crabbes prior to driving?

 

[31550]

Then the police theory doesn't seem to add up? Or did FM speak to the Crabbes prior to driving?

No it doesn't. ( Assuming that IS the police theory - this is not confirmed to my satisfaction anyway - it may have been misreported or Craddock might have not phrased it correctly). But who knows? The public have been treated like mushrooms with this case - kept in the dark and fed bullshit.

There's no evidence FM spoke to the Crabbs. Doesn't fit either FM timeline or the Crabbs testimony about hearing the postie.

 

[stormbird]

I know this might sound ridiculous FF did take his car not FGM’s.
Did the camera at the tennis club capture his face?
What about at Lakewood Village?

Why didn’t FM consider William going along the track? odd she never ran up there.

Would William know the next door neighbours that were away?

js47, just re the CCTV: I haven't seen anything that says whether FF's face was visible or not. But I think there would have been CCTV cameras at the pharmacy in Lakewood, so his face was probably identifiable in those images at least. But is that what you meant?

 

[LRitz]

LRitz, this doesn't answer your question about Mrs Savage, it just mentions a speeding 4WD:

'[Detective Inspector Gary Jubelin:] "We also have reports of a four-wheel-drive leaving Benaroon Drive around the time that William disappeared."

He said investigators were interested in any information regarding a four-wheel-drive in the area due to independent information received.

"(That information was about a) four-wheel-drive that was speeding in the vicinity of Benaroon Drive, shortly after the time of William's disappearance," Detective Inspector Jubelin said.'

ABC News, 07 Sep 2015

This would be pretty important. But does not seem to have been followed up.

"Leaving Benaroon" That suggest going towards Batar Creek Rd, but is not clear direction of travel. And if it left Benaroon did it turn left or right, or was the witness not able to see?
"4 Wheel drive". No information about make, colour, details.
"around the time". This is vague. It could have been any time that morning. I guess they are saying before 10:30.

I wonder who reported it and if anyone has come forward.

 

[LRitz]

I know this might sound ridiculous FF did take his car not FGM’s.
Did the camera at the tennis club capture his face?
What about at Lakewood Village?

Why didn’t FM consider William going along the track? odd she never ran up there.
Would William know the next door neighbours that were away?

Good question. Would the CCTV have only seen the car and not enough details for the driver? It was set up for security of the Tennis club and not to monitor traffic.

Did the FF drive back past the Tennis Club? Oh..That's right,... he had to get the important news papers for the FGM, that she had forgotten to pick up on Thursday, so he stopped at the general store in Kendall and probably drove back another way. I have not heard mention of a time for the car to pass the tennis club. Only the time was FF seen buying the paper and sending the back in 5 text.

Did the FF know that there was CCTV at the tennis club, and anticipate the car would be seen? My guess the locals including the FGM would have known about the CCTV.

Where did he park the car in Lakewood? FF mentioned in his interview he did not want to park looking at a wall (words to that effect). Does that mean he did not want to park in the car park of the shopping centre?

 

[LRitz]

Sometimes l feel we're going around in circles here, going over the same old; probably because we're all bored waiting for justice which may never happen.

I really admire the posters who can sort the timing and algorithms of that messy morning, given the dubious input of three adults who seemingly can't agree on a single thing. Here is some factual stuff which may help our brains trust establish how far William could have walked, if indeed he survived outside the property:-

I live in a rural township and was recently asked to mind a 2.6 year old while his parents attended to an emergency 1km away, euthanising and burying a pet. He didn't know me well and became very distressed, wanting his mother. I didn't have a suitable car seat, so l walked him home as a distraction, knowing it would be over by then. He was a little man on a mission, small for his age, wearing a nappy. He power-walked exactly 1km in 15 minutes; l measured the distance today. The terrain was bitumen, turning into gravel, then dirt, all with dodgy footpaths, if at all. At least 10 cars passed us in a town much smaller than Kendall. I hope this helps in terms of distance William could have covered.

My second observation relates to kids William's age in terms of my experience over 40 years. I
have worked with literally hundreds of them in city and rural placements from teaching, family support, crisis intervention, special needs, police intervention, psychological counselling; the whole shebang. I've worked in rural areas where cows kick kids while giving birth, sheepdogs knock them to the ground and 12 year olds throw hay bales much heavier than themselves. I've trained Aussie Rules rules players of all ages for 20 years but l've never seen a kid William's age with a black eye.

On SM-A356E using BigFooty.com mobile app

And William had bruising on the left side of his face in the first released photo, wearing the orange shirt. He looks much younger in this photo. The black eye must have been another incident only some weeks before and had been reported to FACS and had medical treatment. So he has been doubly unlucky. I wonder if the black eye was on the left or right?

 

[js47]

And William had bruising on the left side of his face in the first released photo, wearing the orange shirt. He looks much younger in this photo. The black eye must have been another incident only some weeks before and had been reported to FACS and had medical treatment. So he has been doubly unlucky. I wonder if the black eye was on the left or right?

Good one! We don’t know which eye we just assume because of the photo.
I guess we are mushrooms.
What about the FF’s comment about him falling backwards of the stool?
There has been nothing about day care records which are very confidential records but it would be interesting to see if Wm. was accident prone . (I hate using that term).
You would think they would have been mentioned at the inquest.

 

[js47]

There were two general stores one at Kendall and one at Kew. This might have changed. I will check out when next there. The one at Kew on the highway was bigger.

 

[stormbird]

There were two general stores one at Kendall and one at Kew. This might have changed. I will check out when next there. The one at Kew on the highway was bigger.

js47, are you replying to LRitz? Your post looks like this to me, with no clues about why you're suddenly discussing general stores:

---

---

If you're talking about FF buying FGM's newspapers, here's a quote from Chumley's book Searching for Spiderman, 2020, pp.81-82, where pseudonyms are used for the foster family (FF is "Nathan", FGM is "Nancy", and FM is "Anna"):

"From reading transcripts of Nathan's statements, we get a pretty clear chronology of what happened after he left Lakewood. While driving back to Kendall, Nathan made a phone call to a prospect in Sydney. The time was 10.23. He stopped at the roadworks at Kew. Waiting for the woman in the hi-vis vest to turn the red stop sign around, he remembered he'd promised to pick up Nancy's newspapers. He pulled up at the Kendall General Store and approached the woman at the counter.

'I said, "Have you got the papers there for Nancy?" and she handed them to me. I paid four dollars in cash. And it was at that point, I'm pretty sure, I sent Anna a text via Siri saying, "I'll be there in five minutes."' That message was sent at precisely 10.30 am. The time is beyond question. Call log records prove it. Nathan arrived back at the house about three minutes later."

 

[stormbird]

Good question. Would the CCTV have only seen the car and not enough details for the driver? It was set up for security of the Tennis club and not to monitor traffic.

Did the FF drive back past the Tennis Club? Oh..That's right,... he had to get the important news papers for the FGM, that she had forgotten to pick up on Thursday, so he stopped at the general store in Kendall and probably drove back another way. I have not heard mention of a time for the car to pass the tennis club. Only the time was FF seen buying the paper and sending the back in 5 text.

Did the FF know that there was CCTV at the tennis club, and anticipate the car would be seen? My guess the locals including the FGM would have known about the CCTV.

Where did he park the car in Lakewood? FF mentioned in his interview he did not want to park looking at a wall (words to that effect). Does that mean he did not want to park in the car park of the shopping centre?

Re: "Good question. Would the CCTV have only seen the car and not enough details for the driver?"

What is the question? Are you and js47 wondering whether someone other than FF was driving the Land Rover Discovery? Or whether he was actually driving FGM's Mazda instead? Or something else? I don't understand, sorry.

 

[Underarrest_]

js47, are you replying to LRitz? Your post looks like this to me, with no clues about why you're suddenly discussing general stores:

---

View attachment 2202600

---

If you're talking about FF buying FGM's newspapers, here's a quote from Chumley's book Searching for Spiderman, 2020, pp.81-82, where pseudonyms are used for the foster family (FF is "Nathan", FGM is "Nancy", and FM is "Anna"):

"From reading transcripts of Nathan's statements, we get a pretty clear chronology of what happened after he left Lakewood. While driving back to Kendall, Nathan made a phone call to a prospect in Sydney. The time was 10.23. He stopped at the roadworks at Kew. Waiting for the woman in the hi-vis vest to turn the red stop sign around, he remembered he'd promised to pick up Nancy's newspapers. He pulled up at the Kendall General Store and approached the woman at the counter.

'I said, "Have you got the papers there for Nancy?" and she handed them to me. I paid four dollars in cash. And it was at that point, I'm pretty sure, I sent Anna a text via Siri saying, "I'll be there in five minutes."' That message was sent at precisely 10.30 am. The time is beyond question. Call log records prove it. Nathan arrived back at the house about three minutes later."

I’ve always felt there’s something odd that William went missing within that short period of time that FF was away from approx 8.45am to 10.33am and within that exact timeframe, FM is allegedly committing the perfect crime, with William never to be seen again. It was FF’s idea to leave a day early, putting the children at FGM’s house earlier that morning and he had the perfect alibi.
Maybe a pure coincidence.

 

[31550]

I’ve always felt there’s something odd that William went missing within that short period of time that FF was away from approx 8.45am to 10.33am and within that exact timeframe, FM is allegedly committing the perfect crime, with William never to be seen again. It was FF’s idea to leave a day early, putting the children at FGM’s house earlier that morning and he had the perfect alibi.
Maybe a pure coincidence.

bolded by me above.

I have a different take on this aspect. It was FF who wanted to spend more time in Kendall, not FM. FM wanted to go up and make sure FGM was not disposing of FM's 'inheritance'. It had nothing to do with the kids wanting to see "Nanna". The early departure simply put extra pressure on FM who had no intention of looking after the kids, or interfacing socially with her mother - her focus was merely to safeguard her inheritance. The early departure meant an extra night away from home. It meant organising boarding for the cats. It meant an early pickup from daycare, and a meal on the road instead of a relaxed meal at home with FF present to play with William. Then FF departs early in the morning for his work meeting leaving FM alone with the kids - not what FM had planned. Nor was it anything she was used to, as her plan was to have both kids enrolled in daycare full-time. She must have considered it an imposition to actually have to perform parenting duties herself! The events of the morning and the way they are related are all evidence of this - the kids fighting over a toy, William crashing his bike, not wanting to climb the tree, not rolling the dice correctly, roaring, not wanting to draw, not wanting anything written on his card, and finally going to look for "Daddy's car". There were no precious family moments shared between William and FM and FGM that morning. The whole morning was a constant battle of wills from the time FF left until he returned.

It is no surprise that William 'disappeared' during this period. The only time when he was left alone in FM's care and FF was not present to play with him, engage with him, protect him even?

It would be interesting to know how many other times William was left alone with FM, and whether any of these times also coincided with injuries to William.

 

[stormbird]

I’ve always felt there’s something odd that William went missing within that short period of time that FF was away from approx 8.45am to 10.33am and within that exact timeframe, FM is allegedly committing the perfect crime, with William never to be seen again. It was FF’s idea to leave a day early, putting the children at FGM’s house earlier that morning and he had the perfect alibi.
Maybe a pure coincidence.

Underarrest_, it sounds like you're talking about a plot: that William's disappearance was planned like a book or a movie.

Fair enough if that's your view. It's not my view. I think if the fosters had wanted to remove William from their lives it's more likely they would have relinquished care; if that meant William's sister had to accompany him and they didn't want her to go, I think it's more likely they would have argued their case through the courts, not pre-emptively made William "go missing" instead.

 

[Earls Smother]

I’ve always felt there’s something odd that William went missing within that short period of time that FF was away from approx 8.45am to 10.33am and within that exact timeframe, FM is allegedly committing the perfect crime, with William never to be seen again. It was FF’s idea to leave a day early, putting the children at FGM’s house earlier that morning and he had the perfect alibi.
Maybe a pure coincidence.

You so often find with these unexplained cases, that circumstances within the family or immediate surrounds, can unknowingly contribute to the perfect storm of opportunity for a predator. Nothing deliberate, just circumstantial.

If FF was at the house, it is highly likely IMO that William would not have gone missing. One parent would have stayed with him (likely FF), or he wouldn't have run off looking for dad etc. There would have been more eyes to notice anything suspicious.

Think of Rhianna Barreau - home alone and unexpected bus strike meant she walked instead.

Eloise Worledge - parents on the verge of splitting up, maybe not communicating well enough to ensure the front door was locked.

Bung Siriboon - normally walked with a friend to school, but didn't that morning because it was raining.

Cherie Westell - at a dental appointment on her own and seemed to take an unusual route home. Foster child complicated the reporting process.

If everything is normal, it is very difficult for a predator to take advantage. Sometimes, things are just abnormal due to circumstances. I'm sure the FF wishes he didn't have those meetings that morning.

 

[LRitz]

Re: "Good question. Would the CCTV have only seen the car and not enough details for the driver?"

What is the question? Are you and js47 wondering whether someone other than FF was driving the Land Rover Discovery? Or whether he was actually driving FGM's Mazda instead? Or something else? I don't understand, sorry.

Just trying to look at the timeline of the morning from the evidence that we have. So not really suggesting anything.

We know the car was driving past the tennis club before 9:00 on the way to Lakewood, and then evidence of FF at Lakewood making calls and the pharmacy and then buying the paper. But is there evidence of the car driving back at around 10:30.

The search, as witnessed by neighbours, did not start until after FF arrived home. i don't think that, IMO, that FM did any outside search around the house on foot before this. No one saw her or reported her calling out before 10:30.

 

[LRitz]

bolded by me above.

I have a different take on this aspect. It was FF who wanted to spend more time in Kendall, not FM. FM wanted to go up and make sure FGM was not disposing of FM's 'inheritance'. It had nothing to do with the kids wanting to see "Nanna". The early departure simply put extra pressure on FM who had no intention of looking after the kids, or interfacing socially with her mother - her focus was merely to safeguard her inheritance. The early departure meant an extra night away from home. It meant organising boarding for the cats. It meant an early pickup from daycare, and a meal on the road instead of a relaxed meal at home with FF present to play with William. Then FF departs early in the morning for his work meeting leaving FM alone with the kids - not what FM had planned. Nor was it anything she was used to, as her plan was to have both kids enrolled in daycare full-time. She must have considered it an imposition to actually have to perform parenting duties herself! The events of the morning and the way they are related are all evidence of this - the kids fighting over a toy, William crashing his bike, not wanting to climb the tree, not rolling the dice correctly, roaring, not wanting to draw, not wanting anything written on his card, and finally going to look for "Daddy's car". There were no precious family moments shared between William and FM and FGM that morning. The whole morning was a constant battle of wills from the time FF left until he returned.

It is no surprise that William 'disappeared' during this period. The only time when he was left alone in FM's care and FF was not present to play with him, engage with him, protect him even?

It would be interesting to know how many other times William was left alone with FM, and whether any of these times also coincided with injuries to William.

Maybe no time for precious family moments or for taking family photos because they were on a timeline. IMO,the photos looked rushed.

 

[Underarrest_]

bolded by me above.

I have a different take on this aspect. It was FF who wanted to spend more time in Kendall, not FM. FM wanted to go up and make sure FGM was not disposing of FM's 'inheritance'. It had nothing to do with the kids wanting to see "Nanna". The early departure simply put extra pressure on FM who had no intention of looking after the kids, or interfacing socially with her mother - her focus was merely to safeguard her inheritance. The early departure meant an extra night away from home. It meant organising boarding for the cats. It meant an early pickup from daycare, and a meal on the road instead of a relaxed meal at home with FF present to play with William. Then FF departs early in the morning for his work meeting leaving FM alone with the kids - not what FM had planned. Nor was it anything she was used to, as her plan was to have both kids enrolled in daycare full-time. She must have considered it an imposition to actually have to perform parenting duties herself! The events of the morning and the way they are related are all evidence of this - the kids fighting over a toy, William crashing his bike, not wanting to climb the tree, not rolling the dice correctly, roaring, not wanting to draw, not wanting anything written on his card, and finally going to look for "Daddy's car". There were no precious family moments shared between William and FM and FGM that morning. The whole morning was a constant battle of wills from the time FF left until he returned.

It is no surprise that William 'disappeared' during this period. The only time when he was left alone in FM's care and FF was not present to play with him, engage with him, protect him even?

It would be interesting to know how many other times William was left alone with FM, and whether any of these times also coincided with injuries to William.

This could be the case too.
It is a good question how many times FM looked after William/the children alone. Just from reading posts about FF being away and getting his car dirty, FM might have cared for the children more than we know.

 

[Underarrest_]

Underarrest_, it sounds like you're talking about a plot: that William's disappearance was planned like a book or a movie.

Fair enough if that's your view. It's not my view. I think if the fosters had wanted to remove William from their lives it's more likely they would have relinquished care; if that meant William's sister had to accompany him and they didn't want her to go, I think it's more likely they would have argued their case through the courts, not pre-emptively made William "go missing" instead.

I agree that if either didn’t want William they could have given him back. It’s more about thoughts in regards to the sequence of events leading up to William’s disappearance.

 

[Underarrest_]

You so often find with these unexplained cases, that circumstances within the family or immediate surrounds, can unknowingly contribute to the perfect storm of opportunity for a predator. Nothing deliberate, just circumstantial.

If FF was at the house, it is highly likely IMO that William would not have gone missing. One parent would have stayed with him (likely FF), or he wouldn't have run off looking for dad etc. There would have been more eyes to notice anything suspicious.

Think of Rhianna Barreau - home alone and unexpected bus strike meant she walked instead.

Eloise Worledge - parents on the verge of splitting up, maybe not communicating well enough to ensure the front door was locked.

Bung Siriboon - normally walked with a friend to school, but didn't that morning because it was raining.

Cherie Westell - at a dental appointment on her own and seemed to take an unusual route home. Foster child complicated the reporting process.

If everything is normal, it is very difficult for a predator to take advantage. Sometimes, things are just abnormal due to circumstances. I'm sure the FF wishes he didn't have those meetings that morning.

Agree with all of this and it’s still the most logical explanation to me.
It’s a confusing case and so many unanswered questions, maybe questions we’ll never know the answers too.

 

[js47]

Re: "Good question. Would the CCTV have only seen the car and not enough details for the driver?"

What is the question? Are you and js47 wondering whether someone other than FF was driving the Land Rover Discovery? Or whether he was actually driving FGM's Mazda instead? Or something else? I don't understand, sorry.

Sorry for the confusion. I wondered if someone else could have been driving the FF’s car and if he may have taken the FGM’s car? Did any one else see him driving his car?
I know it is a long shot but nothing else seems to fit.
That means two people left 48BD at the same time but one only went to Lakewood.
Did any one see him arrive home?
Did neighbours notice what cars and when were in the drive way?

 

[stormbird]

Just trying to look at the timeline of the morning from the evidence that we have. So not really suggesting anything.

We know the car was driving past the tennis club before 9:00 on the way to Lakewood, and then evidence of FF at Lakewood making calls and the pharmacy and then buying the paper. But is there evidence of the car driving back at around 10:30.

The search, as witnessed by neighbours, did not start until after FF arrived home. i don't think that, IMO, that FM did any outside search around the house on foot before this. No one saw her or reported her calling out before 10:30.

Re: "But is there evidence of the car driving back at around 10:30."

I don't think any reports have said FF or his 4WD were caught on the Kendall tennis court CCTV on his return.

He had the prescription filled at Lakewood pharmacy at 10:19, though, so I think it's unlikely there would have been time to get to Kendall General Store by 10:30 if he'd returned any way except the direct route Lakewood-Kew-Kendall General Store, which went past the camera (which in 2014 was in Graham St across the road from the Kendall Community Op Shop). Google Maps says an alternative route Lakewood-Herons Creek-Logans Crossing-Kendall would take 17 minutes.

Also, I think there was probably some level of CCTV coverage over the main Kew intersection (Kendall Rd / Ocean Drive and Nancy Bird Walton Drive), which he would have driven through both to and from Lakewood. There was the Royal Hotel on one corner, a service station on another, Kew Corner Store on a third, and a rural supplies shop (probably with some goods on display outside) on a fourth. No one's ever said whether they all had CCTV, but Overington's book said that Snr Cst Rowley asked the hotel to preserve CCTV footage (Missing William Tyrrell, rev. ed. 2021, p. 72).

If there are CCTV images of FF on his way back to FGM's, I suppose they wouldn't prove the time he got back to the house, only whether it was him driving and whether in the Discovery.

 

[31550]

FF alibi for the return trip is pretty watertight. Chemist receipt 10.19. Phone call at 10.23. General store for newspapers. 10.30 Text message 'Home in 5'. Then at FGM house 10.35, and heard in back yard by AMS at 10.40. Not much time to do anything else.