Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

[Kurve]

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[LRitz]

In most cases there is no 'factory setting'. The camera would be shipped to the seller with no battery or SD card, and the user would be prompted to set the time / date on first use. This most likely happened in the shop when FM bought the camera in Bali so the seller could show her how it worked. Hence, Bali time. It probably never occurred to anyone to change the time on the camera.

Why not phone FF? Indeed why not? Plenty of possible explanations but I don't believe she was ever asked.

So cameras in most cases do not have factory setting for time. A camera is bought (could be Bali or any where). Then the camera is set up for the first time and a time is entered. The time entered could be any time the owner wanted. This first set up becomes recorded in the camera history/ settings. Is this correct? i am not familiar with camera technology.

The owner could enter UTC +9. Then later, say on return to Australia, could change the time setting to any time they wished. So could enter UTC+11. This would make the difference between the two times 2 hours. But the time on the camera would be actually onehour ahead of AEST which is UTC+10. I Guess what I am thinking is that the time setting on a camera is not set in stone. it has been manually entered. Unlike a camera in an iPhone. The photo of the time on the TV could also be altered by taking a photo of a replay of a recorded show.

 

[DropBearess]

JS is in Court today and has pleaded Not Guilty to all charges. Very little media reporting at this stage but hopefully we'll hear more soon.

 

[31550]

So cameras in most cases do not have factory setting for time. A camera is bought (could be Bali or any where). Then the camera is set up for the first time and a time is entered. The time entered could be any time the owner wanted. This first set up becomes recorded in the camera history/ settings. Is this correct? i am not familiar with camera technology.

The owner could enter UTC +9. Then later, say on return to Australia, could change the time setting to any time they wished. So could enter UTC+11. This would make the difference between the two times 2 hours. But the time on the camera would be actually onehour ahead of AEST which is UTC+10. I Guess what I am thinking is that the time setting on a camera is not set in stone. it has been manually entered. Unlike a camera in an iPhone. The photo of the time on the TV could also be altered by taking a photo of a replay of a recorded show.

These cameras typically would have no internet connectivity. So the user does not select a time zone. They manually set the time to whatever they want (usually the local time). Then the camera has an internal clock as long as the battery stays charged, and it records its time to the photographs as they are taken.

In this case the camera was set to Bali time (give or take a minute for manual error and time drift). The photograph taken of the Sunrise show was consistent with the camera still being on Bali time (give or take a minute or two). If you are suggesting the EXIF data of the Sunrise show photograph has been manually alterered, or the photograph was contrived to provide some sort of alibi, then you are also suggesting a very serious conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, if not something more serious and sinister.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

**************************

Per lia Harris podcast (second episode) the sequence of events were:

• FF and WT up first
• FM gets up with FD , dresses them both
• Playing inside they fought over a toy.
• They go into FGM room to wake her up
• WT, FD and FM go out to ride bikes on driveway.
• FD and FM see grey green car pass U turn around and leave
• All go back inside but WT immediately wants to go outside again and FM does playing mummy monster with him. This is perhaps climbing tree opportunity I'd say
• presume this was when FM allegedly spiked her hand in garden
• FD continued playing inside
• Go back inside again this time I presume to have breakfast because FGM (per her interview) had woken up late
• after breakfast out on Verandah drawing, playing dice
• Paul Savage says he was on his verandah between 9 and.9.30....the ONLY time kids (plural) were playing was bikes which was the very first time of play perhaps as early as 8. Something wrong with this. At the time he heard kids playing it was only WT doing daddy tiger alone. Interesting
• photos on verandah 9.37 ??? Debatable
• then reverts to daddy tiger game
• WT around the corner growling....5 min then nothing
• FGM says the outside on verandah was about 1 hr, she also says FF was up and gone before she was up, before 8. To go where exactly????
• was questioned as to whether she heard a phone call and said no no no ...er No..there was of course a missed call from GO. Was that just after 9am. At no stage did FGM wander away not to hear phone ring. She was inside breakfast then wash up then on verandah then wander down to street AFTER he went missing!!!! That is 10.20 not just after 9.. she even said at some time I recall she wasn't aware they did the bike so must have been inside. interesting. She should have been there to hear phone but wasn't

The major concerns I have with the FGM walk through:

• Preoccupation with death, skull
• FF was gone before 8. Why?
• says she didn't see FF but heard him in kitchen
• says that 3 sat down to breakfast then corrects and says 4
• accidentally slipped that" this is where it all happened" pointing to verandah

" says twice that she was told what happened by FF ie they collaborated on sequence of events
* Says that when FF got back he knew what had happened so must have spoken to FM by phone but she (FM) asked him"do you have William?" Deception

All very strange..Nothing aligns. All incriminating. The whole walk through wreaks of deception. When asked by police officer what she did after he got back couldn't answer as though the only story she has rehearsed was earlier to when he went missing whilst FF wasn't there.

 

[BFew]

Currently NOT paywalled. (published not long ago today)

New theory about William revealed

William Tyrrell’s foster mother was questioned during a NSW Crime Commission hearing whether the toddler toppled from a balcony, a court has been told.

thewest.com.au

Coercive powers sought in Tyrrell 'joint investigation'

One of William Tyrrell's former foster parents has already been acquitted as the other is accused of lying to a hearing over secret surveillance tapes.

thewest.com.au

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Currently NOT paywalled. (published not long ago today)

New theory about William revealed

William Tyrrell’s foster mother was questioned during a NSW Crime Commission hearing whether the toddler toppled from a balcony, a court has been told.

thewest.com.au

Coercive powers sought in Tyrrell 'joint investigation'

One of William Tyrrell's former foster parents has already been acquitted as the other is accused of lying to a hearing over secret surveillance tapes.

thewest.com.au

"We know how.we know why. We know where he is" ......but despite that confident demeanor we aren't going to charge you. Rather we are going to announce we are submitting a brief to prosecutor to decide charging. what an utter load of rubbish.. I take a very dim view of coercive manipulative behaviour seeking to convict someone on a flimsy case. Not what you expect from your police force.

 

[BFew]

Court Listings for the FF (JS) today and tomorrow.

 

[BFew]

"We know how.we know why. We know where he is" ......but despite that confident demeanor we aren't going to charge you. Rather we are going to announce we are submitting a brief to prosecutor to decide charging. what an utter load of rubbish.. I take a very dim view of coercive manipulative behaviour seeking to convict someone on a flimsy case. Not what you expect from your police force.

Shocking new theory about William Tyrrell revealed (same 'NCA NewsWire' article as in the West/Daily Tele etc)

'The court heard on Monday that the NSW Police had sent a brief of evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions asking whether the foster mother could be charged with interfering with a corpse and perverting the course of justice.'

'On the stand on Monday, Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan said: “We simply don’t know what happened to him that day.”'

The case for the Prosecution of the FM that has been sent to the DPP (interfering with a corpse and perverting the course of justice) is looking awfully weak based on what Det. Lonergan is quoted having said today.

I can't possibly see how the DPP can recommend charging the FM for interfering with a corpse and perverting the course of justice, unless there is other evidence that Det. Lonergan is either not a party to, or for some reason what he said (bolded above quote) has either been quoted out of context, or is missing some other info that has been suppressed.

For example the 'don't know what happened' could be referring to only part of the whole chain of events that day, and their is in fact evidence Police and Prosecution have regarding William being moved in the FGM's car, that has not yet been made public.

 

[Awakening]

Shocking new theory about William Tyrrell revealed (same 'NCA NewsWire' article as in the West/Daily Tele etc)

'The court heard on Monday that the NSW Police had sent a brief of evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions asking whether the foster mother could be charged with interfering with a corpse and perverting the course of justice.'

'On the stand on Monday, Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan said: “We simply don’t know what happened to him that day.”'

The case for the Prosecution of the FM that has been sent to the DPP (interfering with a corpse and perverting the course of justice) is looking awfully weak based on what Det. Lonergan is quoted having said today.

I can't possibly see how the DPP can recommend charging the FM for interfering with a corpse and perverting the course of justice, unless there is other evidence that Det. Lonergan is either not a party too, or for some reason what he said (bolded above quote) has either been quoted out of context, or is missing some other info that has been suppressed.

For example the 'don't know what happened' could be referring to only part of the whole chain of events that day, and their is in fact evidence Police and Prosecution have regarding William being moved in the FGM's car, that has not yet been made public.

I’ve just read it and eye rolling hard. Is the quote taken out of context? Because if not this is a real disgrace.

 

[BFew]

Is the quote taken out of context? Because if not this is a real disgrace.

Here's more of the reported context.
Still clear as mud.

‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory

At a secretive examination, it was suggested that William toppled off a verandah before his foster mother disposed of his body. She insisted: “I didn’t.”

www.smh.com.au

'‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory​

By Georgina Mitchell​

November 6, 2023 — 6.11pm

Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the court he joined the investigation into William’s disappearance in July 2020, when a comprehensive review of the case was undertaken for a coronial inquest.

He said the unsolved homicide team investigated many theories, including manslaughter, and the possibility the toddler fell off a balcony at the Kendall property on the NSW Mid North Coast where he was last seen in September 2014.

“We constantly discuss it,” Lonergan said. “It’s one of those topics – that we simply don’t know what happened to him that day.”

Lonergan confirmed police had submitted a brief of evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions to inquire about the possibility of charging the foster mother with perverting the course of justice and interfering with a corpse.

The foster father’s barrister, Phillip English, suggested the only theory presented at the secret hearing in late 2021 was the balcony fall, with commissioner Michael Barnes noting that “accidents can happen” and the “primary objective” was to recover William’s body.
...'

 

[Awakening]

Here's more of the reported context.
Still clear as mud.

‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory

At a secretive examination, it was suggested that William toppled off a verandah before his foster mother disposed of his body. She insisted: “I didn’t.”

www.smh.com.au

'‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory​

By Georgina Mitchell​

November 6, 2023 — 6.11pm

Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the court he joined the investigation into William’s disappearance in July 2020, when a comprehensive review of the case was undertaken for a coronial inquest.

He said the unsolved homicide team investigated many theories, including manslaughter, and the possibility the toddler fell off a balcony at the Kendall property on the NSW Mid North Coast where he was last seen in September 2014.

“We constantly discuss it,” Lonergan said. “It’s one of those topics – that we simply don’t know what happened to him that day.”

Lonergan confirmed police had submitted a brief of evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions to inquire about the possibility of charging the foster mother with perverting the course of justice and interfering with a corpse.

The foster father’s barrister, Phillip English, suggested the only theory presented at the secret hearing in late 2021 was the balcony fall, with commissioner Michael Barnes noting that “accidents can happen” and the “primary objective” was to recover William’s body.
...'

Just seems to me now that they don’t have much. This was a last ditch attempt, a stab in the dark but they don’t have enough for charges. It’s embarrassing really. Can’t see DPP going ahead with the case.

 

[BFew]

Manslaughter for failing to render First Aid and calling an Ambo?

Still feels more like a theory, than an upcoming charge.

Unless it's the correct theory and they're putting it out there in the hope they can get a confession, and they get a confession.

 

[Kurve]

Here's Lia Harris's contribution, she just can't seem to grasp objectivity. imo.

Do we even know yet what it's alleged the FF lied about? Have I missed it?

Police 'don't know' what happened to William Tyrrell but foster father has been cleared, court told

The foster father is facing charges of giving false or misleading evidence to the NSW Crime Commission, as the court heard new details of the investigation into William's disappearance.

www.abc.net.au

 

[stormbird]

Here's Lia Harris's contribution, she just can't seem to grasp objectivity. imo.

Do we even know yet what it's alleged the FF lied about? Have I missed it?

Police 'don't know' what happened to William Tyrrell but foster father has been cleared, court told

The foster father is facing charges of giving false or misleading evidence to the NSW Crime Commission, as the court heard new details of the investigation into William's disappearance.

www.abc.net.au

From BFew's Sydney Morning Herald link (post 9,286):

"He [FF] is accused of incorrectly telling the Crime Commission, a secretive body that has the power to compel witnesses to give evidence, that his wife had never harmed a different child in their care, who was not William."

 

[Kurve]

From BFew's Sydney Morning Herald link (post 9,286):

"He [FF] is accused of incorrectly telling the Crime Commission, a secretive body that has the power to compel witnesses to give evidence, that his wife had never harmed a different child in their care, who was not William."

Ooooooh .... I must have missed it. Will go back and check.

 

[Kurve]

If the FF is charged with lying his wife had never harmed a child in their care and the FMs charges regards the assaults have been heard, I'm not sure why the sentancing is delayed. If on a guilty verdict, surely it go towards proving he was lying here?

The FF is charged with five counts of lying. This must be the first count? Anybody got a clue what the other four are related to?

The exchange was revealed at Downing Centre Local Court on Monday, during a hearing in which the toddler’s foster father pleaded not guilty to five counts of knowingly giving false or misleading evidence at a hearing.

He is accused of incorrectly telling the Crime Commission, a secretive body that has the power to compel witnesses to give evidence, that his wife had never harmed a different child in their care, who was not William.

‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory

At a secretive examination, it was suggested that William toppled off a verandah before his foster mother disposed of his body. She insisted: “I didn’t.”

www.smh.com.au

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Seems to me that Lia Harris was indeed objective in her reporting simply the facts.. The fact Detective Sergeant Lonergan admitted they didn't know what happened to WT is damning against police. That is the story here. You expect that to bring charges or seek DPP go ahead to do so that you'd be able to conclusively dismiss veracity of alternatives. That's what reasonable doubt entails. Ray Porter deathbed confession proven wrong. Ronald Chapman seeing WT in a speeding car proven wrong. Paul Savage "they're onto me me love" proven wrong. Tony Jones lying about whereabouts and having a burnt out car proven unrelated.

This whole situation is becoming disgraceful..I'm getting the very strong sense they have nothing and it's guesswork. If it is guesswork this doesn't end well for police.

 

[31550]

Seems to me that Lia Harris was indeed objective in her reporting simply the facts.. The fact Detective Sergeant Lonergan admitted they didn't know what happened to WT is damning against police. That is the story here. You expect that to bring charges or seek DPP go ahead to do so that you'd be able to conclusively dismiss veracity of alternatives. That's what reasonable doubt entails. Ray Porter deathbed confession proven wrong. Ronald Chapman seeing WT in a speeding car proven wrong. Paul Savage "they're onto me me love" proven wrong. Tony Jones lying about whereabouts and having a burnt out car proven unrelated.

This whole situation is becoming disgraceful..I'm getting the very strong sense they have nothing and it's guesswork. If it is guesswork this doesn't end well for police.

I agree with ARB's sentiment but the semantics are wrong. The details regarding Savage, Porter and Chapman were never proved incorrect. It's just that they have never been proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt.

Similarly with Lonergan, I believe it's a problem with semantics. When he said "We know how, we know where ..." he was having a semi-formal conversation with the FM, and clearly using his coersive powers to try to get her to reveal more details. But when he was asked a direct question, (under oath) in court, he had to reply truthfully, "We don't know what happened ..." or risk perjury. He is saying that (right now) he may not be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt what happened. I would have preferred that he answered the question a different way, but that's what he said under oath, and it's probably true. I'd like to think that Lonergan has some idea what happened to William, perhaps even a working theory, but maybe he can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt (yet).

 

[Awakening]

I agree with ARB's sentiment but the semantics are wrong. The details regarding Savage, Porter and Chapman were never proved incorrect. It's just that they have never been proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt.

Similarly with Lonergan, I believe it's a problem with semantics. When he said "We know how, we know where ..." he was having a semi-formal conversation with the FM, and clearly using his coersive powers to try to get her to reveal more details. But when he was asked a direct question, (under oath) in court, he had to reply truthfully, "We don't know what happened ..." or risk perjury. He is saying that (right now) he may not be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt what happened. I would have preferred that he answered the question a different way, but that's what he said under oath, and it's probably true. I'd like to think that Lonergan has some idea what happened to William, perhaps even a working theory, but maybe he can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt (yet).

No doubt they have a theory, but seems to me they are a long way off proving it.

 

[Kurve]

Seems to me that Lia Harris was indeed objective in her reporting simply the facts.. The fact Detective Sergeant Lonergan admitted they didn't know what happened to WT is damning against police. That is the story here. You expect that to bring charges or seek DPP go ahead to do so that you'd be able to conclusively dismiss veracity of alternatives. That's what reasonable doubt entails. Ray Porter deathbed confession proven wrong. Ronald Chapman seeing WT in a speeding car proven wrong. Paul Savage "they're onto me me love" proven wrong. Tony Jones lying about whereabouts and having a burnt out car proven unrelated.

This whole situation is becoming disgraceful..I'm getting the very strong sense they have nothing and it's guesswork. If it is guesswork this doesn't end well for police.

What's all that got to do with the FF lying charges?

Or is the defence trying any which way to corner the cops in open court on William's actual disappearance so the press is all over it?

 

[Lady O]

If the FF is charged with lying his wife had never harmed a child in their care and the FMs charges regards the assaults have been heard, I'm not sure why the verdict is delayed. If on a guilty verdict, surely it go towards proving he was lying here?

The FF is charged with five counts of lying. This must be the first count? Anybody got a clue what the other four are related to?

The exchange was revealed at Downing Centre Local Court on Monday, during a hearing in which the toddler’s foster father pleaded not guilty to five counts of knowingly giving false or misleading evidence at a hearing.

He is accused of incorrectly telling the Crime Commission, a secretive body that has the power to compel witnesses to give evidence, that his wife had never harmed a different child in their care, who was not William.

‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory

At a secretive examination, it was suggested that William toppled off a verandah before his foster mother disposed of his body. She insisted: “I didn’t.”

www.smh.com.au

When it was first suggested that the Foster Carers may have been involved in WT's disappearance, I thought it was unlikely. They had put up such a caring facade, "appearing" on TV to say how much they loved and missed him and begging for his return.

However, the tapes of how LT had been treated are irrefutable.

Perhaps the problem was partly in the way they themselves were raised and partly the false presentation of their role in WT & LT's lives by the Foster Care system. They were Carers, not Parents. They were S & J, not Mummy and Daddy. Their job was to care for the children and keep them safe in a way that their biological parents were not able to. They seem to think that their role was to "knock" the bad out of them and break their spirit. As well, they wanted to keep them away from the bad influence that they believed their parents caused.

To beat, swear, punish and abuse a child in their care was unforgivable. It is like a Grimms fairy tale in real life.

I can now actually believe that there could have been a fatal accident and cover up. I just hope the Police are able to find evidence to prove it if it did happen.

 

[Kurve]

I agree with ARB's sentiment but the semantics are wrong. The details regarding Savage, Porter and Chapman were never proved incorrect. It's just that they have never been proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt.

Similarly with Lonergan, I believe it's a problem with semantics. When he said "We know how, we know where ..." he was having a semi-formal conversation with the FM, and clearly using his coersive powers to try to get her to reveal more details. But when he was asked a direct question, (under oath) in court, he had to reply truthfully, "We don't know what happened ..." or risk perjury. He is saying that (right now) he may not be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt what happened. I would have preferred that he answered the question a different way, but that's what he said under oath, and it's probably true. I'd like to think that Lonergan has some idea what happened to William, perhaps even a working theory, but maybe he can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt (yet).

I agree with that but disagree Lia Harris is objectively reporting the facts. Nowhere in that article is there one mention of what the FF was actually charged for lying about. You know, why he's in court.

 

[BFew]

.....

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/she-knows-where-hes-buried-tyrrell-cop-accuses-foster-mum/news-story/2e2dd3e24ae7b85f5cd5b698464f1817

‘She knows where he’s buried.’ Tyrrell cop accuses foster mum​

STEPHEN RICE​

9 MINUTES AGO NOVEMBER 3, 2022'

'The court was told of a conversation in 2021 between the woman and police officers who had gone to her home to serve a summons for the Crime Commission appearance.

Police suggested they had information that William had fallen from a balcony at his foster grandmother’s home and that the foster mother had disposed of his body.

“We understand decisions have been made for different people for different reasons,” they told her. “We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing. We know why, we know how, we know where he is.”

The woman is alleged to have responded: “What? Why haven’t you got him?”

At the Crime Commission hearing, she again denied any involvement in William’s disappearance. “I didn’t touch him, I don’t know where he is,” she said, according to evidence presented at Thursday’s hearing.'

William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court

Det Sgt Andrew Lonergan ‘formed the view’ that the woman knows the location of the missing boy

www.theguardian.com

'William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court​

Thu 3 Nov 2022 14.38 AEDT

A senior detective has told a court he believes the former foster mother of missing New South Wales boy William Tyrrell knows where he is.
...
“I have formed the view [she] knows where William Tyrrell is,” Det Sgt Andrew Lonergan told Downing Centre local court.

Barrister John Stratton SC, representing the woman, said that was a false belief.

Police charged her for allegedly lying, in an attempt to pressure her, he told the court.

“You are hoping to break her spirit,” Stratton said.

“Our main objective is to find out where William Tyrrell is,” Lonergan said.
....
Lonergan denied in court that he and his colleague Det Sgt Scott Jamieson deliberately lied to the woman to upset her during the interview when they told her police knew where the boy’s body was.

Jamieson, who told the woman police knew where William Tyrrell’s body was and what happened to him, also denied deliberately lying about it.

“I knew the area in which I believed William was,” Jamieson told the court.

Both officers said they believed the boy was somewhere in Kendall, but they acknowledged no body had been found.
...'

Are these Nov 2022 media reports, the missing context on Lonergan's 6 November 2023 take on what happened to William.

I'm getting a little confused on who is actually on trial and charged with lying in this case!

 

[stormbird]

News.com.au / NCA NewsWire, 07 Nov 2023:

https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...g/news-story/f3a17d1424f6b8e498513b65b0805731

 

[Kurve]

News.com.au / NCA NewsWire, 07 Nov 2023:

https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...g/news-story/f3a17d1424f6b8e498513b65b0805731

Okay, so it's five counts of lying on the same question? Looks like he will be convicted here btw and if he is, nothing he can say in the FMs defence going forward can be believed.

In an intercepted telephone call, the foster mother later tells her husband that she hit the child “really hard with that wooden spoon.”

The foster mother adds that the girl is going to have a “massive welt” on her legs.

In another recording from that same day, the foster father asks his wife: “Did you kick her hard?”

Later in the same conversation the woman says: “I hurt her. I can’t believe I did it.”

Prosecutor John Marsh argued that the incidents were so significant that he could not have forgotten about them.

Mr Marsh argued that the kicking incident happened just 22 days before his Crime Commission evidence and was so significant that he came home early.

Taken from the link above.