Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

[Kurve]

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Kurve]

Police suggested they had information that William had fallen from a balcony at his foster grandmother’s home and that the foster mother had disposed of his body.

“We understand decisions have been made for different people for different reasons,” they told her. “We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing. We know why, we know how, we know where he is.”

The woman is alleged to have responded: “What? Why haven’t you got him?”

Cute. She knew that was coming and gave them smartarsery in response.

 

[JWS2019]

Cute. She knew that was coming and gave them smartarsery in response.

Was going to say the exact same thing... complete smart arse could be wrong but I doubt they would do this (all of this) without some surety.

 

[JWS2019]

Awakening
Is this your only evidence of what you refer to as Police (whilst delivering a summons to the FM to appear b4 the NSW Crime Commission) of offering her immunity from prosecution for something(s)?

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post or there is something else you posted earlier I have missed to add to evidence of your "immunity" claim.

I would like to understand this too..: heaps of articles and they are changing did they offer a deal with the devil of immunity on William?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

“We understand decisions have been made for different people for different reasons,” they told her. “We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing. We know why, we know how, we know where he is.”

We can take the cop at his word there, but it’s also something that is easy to say when you are bluffing.

No body has been found.

 

[JWS2019]

My memory is fading but seems they were looking at Cobb and co road much early as well as 2021 - could just be a coincedence given proximity but need to check the archives!

 

[JWS2019]

“We understand decisions have been made for different people for different reasons,” they told her. “We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing. We know why, we know how, we know where he is.”

We can take the cop at his word there, but it’s also something that is easy to say when you are bluffing.

No body has been found.

Def sounds like they were playing the game, but all the same to drag through to extent of taking her to court for lying?? Confused about this as well do we know if lying is for both recent assault and William ?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Def sounds like they were playing the game, but all the same to drag through to extent of taking her to court for lying?? Confused about this as well do we know if lying is for both recent assault and William ?

Yeah I dunno. Trying to keep an open mind. What evidence do they have?

 

[BFew]

From media reports, with the giving false or misleading evidence charges on both the fosters.

FM - One (1) charge (spoon)
FF - Two (2) charges (Feb 2023 hearing)

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/bombshell-revelation-about-william-tyrrell-investigation-as-lead-cop-makes-claim-on-foster-mum/news-story/b3d0b51905136445a5fa59705777d0bf

Bombshell revelation about William Tyrrell investigation as lead cop makes claim on foster mum​

'5:14PM NOVEMBER 3, 2022'

'She has pleaded not guilty to a charge of knowingly giving false or misleading evidence during the secret hearings in November last year.'

'Earlier this year, William’s foster father, who cannot be named, also pleaded not guilty to two charges of giving false or misleading evidence to the crime commission.'

"In April [2022], the couple were charged for knowingly giving false or misleading information to the NSW Crime Commission hearing about William Tyrrell's disappearance.
The foster mother will face a hearing next month [Nov 2022] and the foster father will face a hearing next February [2023]."
- Daily Mail Australia, 20 Oct 2022

 

[stormbird]

My memory is fading but seems they were looking at Cobb and co road much early as well as 2021 - could just be a coincedence given proximity but need to check the archives!

The property which hosted the "riding school" (on Batar Creek Road but bordering Cobb & Co Road for a short distance) was reportedly searched on the day William went missing:

From a 2014 article - William Tyrell search is not over, Port Macquarie News, 24 Dec 2014 - which is paywalled now but wasn't when I copied the text (I can't check whether anything has since been altered):

"Osteopath [Peg L.] said each day William is missing the community changes more.
Her property was one of the first searched on the Friday.
...
She and husband Theo invited searchers to check sheds and dams immediately."

 

[Kurve]

Is this the lying they're charged with? She's caught cold after denying it, admitting to hitting the foster daughter in a call to the foster father.

Horrible stuff, I found this distressing. No mention of what happened before the girl said she was calling the police, why was she calling the police?

The audio begins with a female voice, possibly of the girl, saying, 'I am calling the police' and then a child screaming 'no' and crying, panting and sobbing.

Then there is the sound of a possible slap and the foster mother ordering the child, 'Stand up. Stand up'.

The child said 'no, please no, nooooooo' and then was told to 'Sit down. Sit.'

Snr Sgt Asaad told the court that in a conversation after the incident the foster mother told her husband 'she's been hit really hard with that wooden spoon. She's going to have massive welt on her leg.'

The court was played a subsequent conversation in which the foster father says, 'Oh that's not good. We've got a problem. We've got a big problem.'

William Tyrrell: Inside foster mother's secret grilling

The state's top secret crime-fighting agency has grilled William Tyrrell's foster mother accusing her of hiding the toddler's body after the boy fell from the verandah, a Sydney court has heard.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BFew]

Is anyone able to confirm the rumours that Insight Communications (Clare and Alice Collins), who I believe also run the Where's William website accompanied FM to court today?

There’s this.

William Tyrrell: Inside foster mother's secret grilling

The state's top secret crime-fighting agency has grilled William Tyrrell's foster mother accusing her of hiding the toddler's body after the boy fell from the verandah, a Sydney court has heard.

www.dailymail.co.uk

‘PUBLISHED: 19:23 AEDT, 3 November 2022 | UPDATED: 20:03 AEDT, 3 November 2022’

‘The foster mother arrived at court on Thursday wearing black trousers and a black and white checked jacket and in the company of two marketing consultants, Clare and Alice Collins, who run the Where's William PR campaign.’

 

[BFew]

William Tyrrell: Inside foster mother's secret grilling

The state's top secret crime-fighting agency has grilled William Tyrrell's foster mother accusing her of hiding the toddler's body after the boy fell from the verandah, a Sydney court has heard.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Some more quotes from this article.

I think I’ve found what might be considered of as an informal suggestion that immunity from prosecution would be available.

‘Extraordinary details have emerged about how NSW Crime Commissioner Michael Barnes and counsel assisting Sophie Callan….

When the Commissioner suggested 'William went around on that verandah and he toppled over and it was nobody's fault what happened', the foster mother replied, 'No, I would have found him. But I didn't find him.'

When Ms Callan said, 'I want to suggest you did find him, you put his body in your mother's car', the foster mother replied, 'I didn't, I didn't'.

Ms Callan then told her: 'They can handle it in a way that does not connect you'.

The foster mother replied: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him.’

 

[Kurve]

Some more quotes from this article.

I think I’ve found what might be considered of as an informal suggestion that immunity from prosecution would be available.

‘Extraordinary details have emerged about how NSW Crime Commissioner Michael Barnes and counsel assisting Sophie Callan….

When the Commissioner suggested 'William went around on that verandah and he toppled over and it was nobody's fault what happened', the foster mother replied, 'No, I would have found him. But I didn't find him.'

When Ms Callan said, 'I want to suggest you did find him, you put his body in your mother's car', the foster mother replied, 'I didn't, I didn't'.

Ms Callan then told her: 'They can handle it in a way that does not connect you'.

The foster mother replied: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him.’

How could that be handled in a way that doesn't connect her though? I'm not right across the case but I think even with the Matthew Leveson death also in NSW, we knew what the immunity deal was and it wasn't hidden that Aitkens disposed of his body.

 

[31550]

So we have a LE officer effectively saying, "We know everything!" - how, why, where etc. And at the same time admitting, "If we had evidence (about William) we would have charged FM", and "we'll do/say anything to find out what happened to William!". (paraphrased by me)

Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you know what happened or you don't.

I am quite surprised by Lonergan's statement. Not just that he made it, but why was it even entered into evidence? It's a long bow to connect the alleged assault with William's disappearance. (Unless there is recorded evidence of them discussing William at the time of the assault). But such evidence does not seem to have been presented. (hasn't been reported anyway).

What was Lonergan trying to achieve by "expressing an opinion" in court? And why is this even admissible evidence? I'm surprised FM's defence did not object to this!

 

[BFew]

Some more details on what went down in court today in this case.

William Tyrrell's foster dad lengthy court trial

William Tyrrell's foster dad to face lengthy two day-hearing for allegedly lying in a secret NSW Crime Commission hearing after 'unsolved homicide' squad charged him in January.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'UPDATED: 11:37 AEDT, 22 March 2022'

'On Tuesday, a surprised Magistrate Miranda Moody questioned the need for two days to hear the two charges of lying to the NSW Crime Commission when the foster father's lawyer Carly Hydes insisted the time was needed as 'there's an enormous amount of material' including the accused's police interview and 'further electronic material' to be played in court.

'Two days?' Magistrate Moody responded, 'two days is a lot of time to ask for and we are very, very tight in the (court) diary.

'That does not look a two day matter to me.

'Sergeant, do you agree with that?,' the Magistrate asked the police prosecutor, 'How many witnesses are there for the defence?''

'Ms Hydes said her client had a 'long audio' interview with police and further material was being collected.
After conferring with the prosecutor, she returned to the court room and told Magistrate Moody the request for a two day hearing was 'maintained'.'

It was the 'further electronic material' that sent me towards thinking the police had something on listening devices.

Which might be incorrect.

The exchange in the above March 2022 posts, were about the Foster Father's two charges of lying to the NSW Crime Commission (November 2021)
(as opposed to the Foster Mother's single charge).

Yesterday, the Daily Mail reported that police had bugged the foster parents' homes with nine listening devices and eight hidden cameras.
Confirming where some of that above posts 'further electronic material' referred to in March 2022 media reports in had come from.

With yesterday's foster mother court appearance also including phone intercepts between the Foster Mother and Foster Father, we now have a much clearer idea of what some of this further electronic material was (related to both the Foster Mother and Foster Father).

William Tyrrell foster mother 'knows where his body is', cop claims

Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the Downing Centre Local Court on Thursday: ''I've formed the view (the foster mother) knows where William Tyrrell is'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Stunning moment top cop declares in court William Tyrrell's foster mother 'knows where the missing toddler's body is' in massive development in Australia's most high-profile missing person case​

By CANDACE SUTTON FOR DAILY MAIL AUSTRALIA
PUBLISHED: 13:29 AEDT, 3 November 2022 | UPDATED: 20:02 AEDT, 3 November 2022

'the court heard police had bugged the foster parents' homes with nine listening devices and eight hidden cameras.'

Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is

A detective tells a Sydney court he has formed the belief William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where the missing boy is. The 57-year-old cannot be identified for legal reasons.

www.abc.net.au

'Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is​

By Jamie McKinnell
Posted 15h ago'

'On Thursday, the Downing Centre court was played two audio files; one from a listening device in a home and a second from an intercepted phone call between the foster parents.

In the first clip of audio, a voice can be heard repeatedly yelling "no", before a female voice says: "Stand up. Stand up. Where did you put the wooden spoon".

During the phone call, the foster mother is heard saying: "She locked me out of the house."

A male voice then replies: "That's not good … we've got a problem, we've got a big problem."'

 

[BFew]

No mention of what happened before the girl said she was calling the police, why was she calling the police?

During the phone call, the foster mother is heard saying: "She locked me out of the house."

A male voice then replies: "That's not good … we've got a problem, we've got a big problem."'

Looks like the spoon assault (Foster Mother hits ten year child with spoon), might have been wholly or partly in retribution and/or punishment for someone locking the Foster Mother out of the house.

It's possibly that the alleged locking out of the house incident, was a historical one (not just happened that day of the phone intercept), or could have referred to more than one locking out of the house incidents.

Depending on when the one or more alleged locking out of the house incidents was (if there actually were any such incidents), the 'nine listening devices and eight hidden cameras' being used for covert (I assume they were all covert) in that house, might have picked up the alleged locking out of the house incidents.

It's possible that either the Foster Father and/or the Foster Mother already suspected, or had already found one or more of the 'nine listening devices and eight hidden cameras', before they were removed, or the Fosters moved out of the home with them in.

It's possible that one or more of the nine listening devices were actually the Fosters own devices that had been hacked or were in some way under the remote control (from time to time) of someone(s) other than the Foster Parents, for surveillance and/or evidence gathering purposes'

If the cameras (or devices with cameras in them) were truly 'hidden', that would appear to rule out that it was the Fosters own devices with cameras, or the fosters own surveillance cameras (if they had any on the property inside or outside), that were in some way under the remote control (from time to time) of someone(s) other than the Foster Parents, for surveillance and/or evidence gathering purposes. Although the language used in evidence, might have been specifically selected/used so that it did not give away law enforcement (Police and/or NSW Crime Commission) surveillance and evidence gathering methods, that are used for other criminal investigations.

The listening and camera devices in the Foster Parent's home were probably (unbeknown to William's ex-Foster parents), were probably a mandatory component of Law Enforcement (and hopefully NSW Department of Communities and Justice) signing off on
1. Any children being allowed to remain be in the care of the William's ex-Foster parents.
2. Any new children being allowed to be placed in the care (including very short stay children) of William's ex-foster parents.

 

[BFew]

So we have a LE officer effectively saying, "We know everything!" - how, why, where etc. And at the same time admitting, "If we had evidence (about William) we would have charged FM", and "we'll do/say anything to find out what happened to William!". (paraphrased by me)

Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you know what happened or you don't.

I am quite surprised by Lonergan's statement. Not just that he made it, but why was it even entered into evidence? It's a long bow to connect the alleged assault with William's disappearance. (Unless there is recorded evidence of them discussing William at the time of the assault). But such evidence does not seem to have been presented. (hasn't been reported anyway).

What was Lonergan trying to achieve by "expressing an opinion" in court? And why is this even admissible evidence? I'm surprised FM's defence did not object to this!

Re the cake: Maybe you should watch or read more crime fiction to find out what probably goes on in criminal investigations.
Londergan's 'statement' was made whilst under cross-examination by the Foster Mother's barrister in court yesterday.
After the Foster Mother's barrister asked Detective Lonergan a William Tyrrell case question, that effectively accused Detective Lonergan of persuing the false or misleading charges (spoon assault on a 10 year old child incident) in order to 'break her spirit'.

Does that answer your question of how the William case was brought up yesterday in court.
As it appears that the Foster Mother's defence team were the catalyst of this, with their selected cross examination questions of Detective Lonergan.

Maybe if the Foster Mother had just pleaded guilty to the false or misleading charges heard in court yesterday, she could have more easily avoided what else was revealed in court yesterday by Detective Lonergan, from becoming public the way it did, and when it did, yesterday.

William Tyrrell foster mother 'knows where his body is', cop claims

Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the Downing Centre Local Court on Thursday: ''I've formed the view (the foster mother) knows where William Tyrrell is'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'PUBLISHED: 13:29 AEDT, 3 November 2022 | UPDATED: 20:02 AEDT, 3 November 2022'

'A senior detective has dropped a bombshell in a Sydney court claiming he believes that William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where the missing toddler's body is.

'I've formed the view (the foster mother) knows where William Tyrrell is', Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the Downing Centre Local Court on Thursday afternoon.

The court also heard police told the foster mother 'we know why, we know how' William disappeared and his body was disposed of.

Det Sgt Lonergan made the comments under cross-examination by the foster mother's barrister John Stratton.'

'When Mr Stratton asked Det Sgt Lonergan if he was pursuing the foster mother on charges to 'break her spirit', the police officer said the purpose of her appearing before the Crime Commission was to 'find the location of William Tyrrell.' '

 

[BFew]

By CANDACE SUTTON FOR DAILY MAIL AUSTRALIA
PUBLISHED: 13:29 AEDT, 3 November 2022 | UPDATED: 20:02 AEDT, 3 November 2022

'the court heard police had bugged the foster parents' homes with nine listening devices and eight hidden cameras.'

Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is

A detective tells a Sydney court he has formed the belief William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where the missing boy is. The 57-year-old cannot be identified for legal reasons.

www.abc.net.au

The ABC reported yesterday that police had obtained warrants to plant multiple listening devices in two locations.
I wonder where the 2nd location was?

And whilst looking at any articles in the media yesterday or today regarding 'warrants' and the current in court Foster Mother false or misleading case,
I found the Guardian reporting someone about an issue with the expiry date for the warrants used to surveil the Foster Mother and Foster Father.

Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is

A detective tells a Sydney court he has formed the belief William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where the missing boy is. The 57-year-old cannot be identified for legal reasons.

www.abc.net.au

During evidence on Thursday from Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan, it was revealed police obtained warrants to plant multiple listening devices in two locations and had also intercepted the parents' phone calls.

William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court

Det Sgt Andrew Lonergan ‘formed the view’ that the woman knows the location of the missing boy

www.theguardian.com

'William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court​

Thu 3 Nov 2022 14.38 AEDT'

'Lonergan had earlier agreed with Stratton that a mistake is not the same as a lie, after the officer mistakenly gave the wrong date for the expiry date for warrants used to surveil the woman and her husband.'

 

[31550]

Re the cake: Maybe you should watch or read more crime fiction to find out what probably goes on in criminal investigations.

So does he know, or doesn't he know?

 

[BFew]

William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court

Det Sgt Andrew Lonergan ‘formed the view’ that the woman knows the location of the missing boy

www.theguardian.com

'William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court​

Thu 3 Nov 2022 14.38 AEDT'

Here's something else from yesterday in court from the above Guardian article, that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread yet.

Apart from the new revelations on the line of defence argument, why does it included a kicking the child incident, when the charge was reported to have been a spoon hitting incident?

'Police prosecutor Amin Assaad submitted that the woman had not said she couldn’t remember or was not sure whether she had hit the child with a wooden spoon, but that she said she had “never” done it.

“Unfortunately, that answer … is an outright lie,” Assaad told the court.

Stratton said she had not been given adequate information.

“No details were given, she was not given the benefit of hearing the tape played,” Stratton told the court.

He submitted it would make no sense for the woman to admit to hitting or kicking the child and then deny it.

Stratton suggested the woman was distressed during the interview and could have made an honest mistake.

Lonergan had earlier agreed with Stratton that a mistake is not the same as a lie, after the officer mistakenly gave the wrong date for the expiry date for warrants used to surveil the woman and her husband.'

 

[BFew]

Some more quotes from this article.

I think I’ve found what might be considered of as an informal suggestion that immunity from prosecution would be available.

‘Extraordinary details have emerged about how NSW Crime Commissioner Michael Barnes and counsel assisting Sophie Callan….

When the Commissioner suggested 'William went around on that verandah and he toppled over and it was nobody's fault what happened', the foster mother replied, 'No, I would have found him. But I didn't find him.'

When Ms Callan said, 'I want to suggest you did find him, you put his body in your mother's car', the foster mother replied, 'I didn't, I didn't'.

Ms Callan then told her: 'They can handle it in a way that does not connect you'.

The foster mother replied: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him.’

Here's an article yesterday reporting that the Foster Mother's defence barrister claimed that in the November 2021 NSW Crime Commission hearing the Foster Mother was subpoena'ed to attend, she was effectively offered immunity from prosecution for telling the truth about something.

Could this something have just been the spoon assault incident, and not include or be solely about the what happened to William disappearing tragedy?

Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is

A detective tells a Sydney court he has formed the belief William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where the missing boy is. The 57-year-old cannot be identified for legal reasons.

www.abc.net.au

'Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is​

By Jamie McKinnell
Posted 15h ago'

'Defence barrister John Stratton SC put to the detective that one of the reasons for laying charges was to "break [the foster mother's] spirit".

He said she was given an opportunity, in the Crime Commission, where she could "tell the truth and she wouldn't be punished for it".'

 

[Lady O]

I don't know what happened to the allegations she kicked the child and hit her on the head and stopped her from going to the toilet?

"Detective Lonergan agreed the only matter over which the woman has been charged for giving false evidence to the Crime Commission were answers she gave about the alleged assault.

"Yes, that's true, or else I would have charged her with more offences," he said.

At that point, the foster mother turned to a supporter in court, with her mouth open."

So, why did the FM show surprise? Was she expecting more charges?

 

[stormbird]

The ABC reported yesterday that police had obtained warrants to plant multiple listening devices in two locations.
I wonder where the 2nd location was?

And whilst looking at any articles in the media yesterday or today regarding 'warrants' and the current in court Foster Mother false or misleading case,
I found the Guardian reporting someone about an issue with the expiry date for the warrants used to surveil the Foster Mother and Foster Father.

Detective tells court he thinks William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where missing boy is

A detective tells a Sydney court he has formed the belief William Tyrrell's foster mother knows where the missing boy is. The 57-year-old cannot be identified for legal reasons.

www.abc.net.au

During evidence on Thursday from Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan, it was revealed police obtained warrants to plant multiple listening devices in two locations and had also intercepted the parents' phone calls.

William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court

Det Sgt Andrew Lonergan ‘formed the view’ that the woman knows the location of the missing boy

www.theguardian.com

'William Tyrrell’s former foster mother knows where he is, NSW detective tells court​

Thu 3 Nov 2022 14.38 AEDT'

'Lonergan had earlier agreed with Stratton that a mistake is not the same as a lie, after the officer mistakenly gave the wrong date for the expiry date for warrants used to surveil the woman and her husband.'

Re the second location of the surveillance devices: I think it's possible they were hidden in both the foster parents' previous and new houses. The first version of yesterday's Sydney Morning Herald article said detectives "tapped [William's] foster parents' phones and bugged their home in late 2020." - Sydney Morning Herald, 03 Nov 2022, 1:58 pm via the Wayback Machine.

I think the auction for the foster family's previous house was in December 2020; as far as I've seen nobody has reported when they moved out and into their new house.

If correct that the surveillance started in late 2020, I think it's interesting it was so soon after the inquest, which supposedly closed in October 2020. I'm wondering if it was the coroner and not the police who thought the fosters should be re-investigated.

 

[Tues]

Tyrrell foster mother not guilty of lying to NSW Crime Commission​

hmmmm

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/tyrrell-foster-mother-not-guilty-of-lying-to-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/33f4659bc26aafdd9e4b05dbd33409c3

 

[31550]

Tyrrell foster mother not guilty of lying to NSW Crime Commission​

hmmmm

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/tyrrell-foster-mother-not-guilty-of-lying-to-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/33f4659bc26aafdd9e4b05dbd33409c3

Well there you go. Eight years of policing, multiple surveillance tapes, recordings of FM allegedly carrying out an assault, appearance before the NSWCC, and they can't even get a charge of lying about the alleged assault to stick! We are so far away from getting any justice for William, it's appalling.