Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

[Kurve]

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Kurve]

Wow, if the the reporting is true and accurate....how??

A person is heard on recordings disciplining a child with force and an audible smacking type sound consistent with a wooden object to which the child is heard reacting. Then the accused perpetrator is intercepted on a voice call and voluntarily says she hit her with a wooden spoon hard enough to leave a welt on the child's leg, then when specifically asked whether she has hit a child with a wooden spoon - replies with no...

How is that answer not lying to the Crime Commission??

So can any lie in that commission now be argued in court that it was not a lie, it was a mistaken recollection and this is now a precedent to be let off??

This now makes the crime commission hearings toothless. They may as well tear down the department.

Whether you believe this is a witch hunt against the Foster Parents or not, the facts as I have stated in isolation are there regardless...

I dont get the courts and the decisions that get made sometimes...its no wonder a child goes missing and cant be found when this is the judicial system we have that protects abusers and allows them to hide behind the cloak of anonymity.

She got off on lying to the NSWCC on a technicality essentially, while in the past has signalled intentions to plead guilty to the actual assault (mental health grounds since rejected) which is yet to be finalised. Since she's been found not guilty of lying to the NSWCC, she might try to use that in the future assault case.

I don't want to say what I personally think of her because I might have to give myself an infraction.

The foster mother’s barrister John Stratton argued it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the foster mother knowingly lied, saying she was clearly distressed during her questioning before the Crime Commission.

The foster mother is separately facing two counts of common assault and earlier this year failed to have the charges dealt with on mental health grounds.

She will face a hearing next year, along with William’s foster father, who has pleaded not guilty to one count of common assault and one count of intimidation.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/tyrrell-foster-mother-not-guilty-of-lying-to-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/33f4659bc26aafdd9e4b05dbd33409c3

 

[TheDudeAbides]

She got off on lying to the NSWCC on a technicality essentially, while in the past has signalled intentions to plead guilty to the actual assault (mental health grounds since rejected) which is yet to be finalised. Since she's been found not guilty of lying to the NSWCC, she might try to use that in the future assault case.

I don't want to say what I personally think of her because I might have to give myself an infraction.

The foster mother’s barrister John Stratton argued it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the foster mother knowingly lied, saying she was clearly distressed during her questioning before the Crime Commission.

The foster mother is separately facing two counts of common assault and earlier this year failed to have the charges dealt with on mental health grounds.

She will face a hearing next year, along with William’s foster father, who has pleaded not guilty to one count of common assault and one count of intimidation.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/tyrrell-foster-mother-not-guilty-of-lying-to-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/33f4659bc26aafdd9e4b05dbd33409c3

Yeah my comments above are made knowing all this stuff. The sections bolded by you is why I am stating that any person can now lie before the commission and now be let off on a technicality if their barrister is able to claim they were under pressure (wouldnt most people feel under pressure when you are being questioned about a missing child and you are suspected of involvement with?) and mistaken in their answer.

Whether you have smacked a child with a wooden spoon I would feel is not an answer you can be mistaken in giving...either you know you have or know you havent.

I understand Lonergan's date gaffe could happen as dates are numbers and can me mistaken...totally different to being asked whether you have done something abhorent to a child or not.

 

[31550]

She got off on lying to the NSWCC on a technicality essentially, while in the past has signalled intentions to plead guilty to the actual assault (mental health grounds since rejected) which is yet to be finalised. Since she's been found not guilty of lying to the NSWCC, she might try to use that in the future assault case.

I don't want to say what I personally think of her because I might have to give myself an infraction.

The foster mother’s barrister John Stratton argued it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the foster mother knowingly lied, saying she was clearly distressed during her questioning before the Crime Commission.

The foster mother is separately facing two counts of common assault and earlier this year failed to have the charges dealt with on mental health grounds.

She will face a hearing next year, along with William’s foster father, who has pleaded not guilty to one count of common assault and one count of intimidation.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/tyrrell-foster-mother-not-guilty-of-lying-to-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/33f4659bc26aafdd9e4b05dbd33409c3

It seems the prosecution case (against the FM for lying to NSWCC) hinged on one particular denial:
"Did you ever hit <the child> with a wooden spoon?" to which FM replied, "Never!"
(The FM actually admitted hitting the child in other questioning).
With the prosecution unable to prove beyond reasonable doubt that FM hit <the child> with a wooden spoon, the magistrate can only find "not Guilty!"
What a waste of time and money!

 

[TheDudeAbides]

It seems the prosecution case (against the FM for lying to NSWCC) hinged on one particular denial:
"Did you ever hit <the child> with a wooden spoon?" to which FM replied, "Never!"
(The FM actually admitted hitting the child in other questioning).
With the prosecution unable to prove beyond reasonable doubt that FM hit <the child> with a wooden spoon, the magistrate can only find "not Guilty!"
What a waste of time and money!

I strongly believe based on the information I have at hand (from the media reports) that its is beyond reasonable doubt she hit the child and lied about it...

Are you criticizing the police and prosecution bringing the charges, or the decision?

 

[31550]

I strongly believe based on the information I have at hand (from the media reports) that its is beyond reasonable doubt she hit the child and lied about it...

Are you criticizing the police and prosecution bringing the charges, or the decision?

The decision seems sound.
The prosecution case seems flawed: The following is from an unattributed source, however I believe it to be accurate:

Magistrate Miranda Moody said she could not "discount the possibility she was mistaken and did not deliberately lie" to the commission, because she made such prompt admissions of hitting and kicking the child in other instances during the hearing.

The woman responded "yes" to questions put to her during the hearing including "did you ever hit (the child)?" and "did you ever kick (the child)?".

"Have you ever hit her with a wooden spoon?" Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan asked her.

"Never," she responded.

The magistrate said she "might have taken a different view had she denied ever hitting or kicking (the child)".

As the magistrate points out - the alleged lie (re wooden spoon) cannot be proven. There is no video evidence of her hitting anyone with a wooden spoon. There is nothing else the police allege she lied to NSWCC about - she had made admissions about hitting and kicking, so no lying there.
So, yeah I guess I am criticising the police for bringing such charges without adequate proof.

 

[Kurve]

Magistrate Miranda Moody said she could not "discount the possibility she was mistaken and did not deliberately lie" to the commission, because she made such prompt admissions of hitting and kicking the child in other instances during the hearing.

The woman responded "yes" to questions put to her during the hearing including "did you ever hit (the child)?" and "did you ever kick (the child)?".

Well, there we go then. She'll be found guilty of the assaults, wooden spoon or not.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

The decision seems sound.
The prosecution case seems flawed: The following is from an unattributed source, however I believe it to be accurate:

Magistrate Miranda Moody said she could not "discount the possibility she was mistaken and did not deliberately lie" to the commission, because she made such prompt admissions of hitting and kicking the child in other instances during the hearing.

The woman responded "yes" to questions put to her during the hearing including "did you ever hit (the child)?" and "did you ever kick (the child)?".

"Have you ever hit her with a wooden spoon?" Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan asked her.

"Never," she responded.

The magistrate said she "might have taken a different view had she denied ever hitting or kicking (the child)".

As the magistrate points out - the alleged lie (re wooden spoon) cannot be proven. There is no video evidence of her hitting anyone with a wooden spoon. There is nothing else the police allege she lied to NSWCC about - she had made admissions about hitting and kicking, so no lying there.
So, yeah I guess I am criticising the police for bringing such charges without adequate proof.

So help me...please explain the rationale with the decision that you agree with...

*Child is heard on recordings being hit with a smacking sound heard apparently after hiding the wooden spoon after learning said child was in trouble after locking Foster Mum out of house (hiding spoon indicates it has happened to child before)

*Suspect is recorded on phone call after incident to husband saying she hit child with wooden spoon really hard...and would probably leave a welt

*Suspect is asked in Secret chamber and compelled to answer truthfully...have you hit child with wooden spoon.

*Answer provided was "never". Not I dont think so or I cant recall ever hitting a child with a wooden spoon. She is recorded saying she did it to her husband after being heard doing something that resembles that on a recording.

Without the admission to the husband I admit there is no way of a guilty verdict, but with the admission that she did it...bang...done.

As I said there is no mistake in her answer, she is not under pressure nor mistaken with the answer of never. And I dont believe you can mistake an answer on hitting a kid with a wooden spoon.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Well, there we go then. She'll be found guilty of the assaults, wooden spoon or not.

but maybe she was mistaken in those answers too, and cant be found guilty on a statement apparently if you are mistaken about it

 

[Poppy Penny]

I don't want to say what I personally think of her because I might have to give myself an infraction.

Thanks for all your hard work with this thread Kurve.

 

[JWS2019]

It all sounds silly now they have them up on assault but it’s a bit of she said this.. and probably not worthy of prosecuting if they can’t confirm the other lies about William.

Maybe all is not lost though, maybe they wanted to air and put pressure on the fact they think FM knows what happened to William.
Also if she is now saying she did assault the child? And was confused with her answers, Might help the other case? And maybe helped get The other child be removed quicker?

 

[Kurve]

I strongly believe based on the information I have at hand (from the media reports) that its is beyond reasonable doubt she hit the child and lied about it...

Are you criticizing the police and prosecution bringing the charges, or the decision?

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The FM admits to hitting the child, there's a phone recording where she admits independently to the FF that she hit the child with 'that wooden spoon' and I think the child has said she was routinely disciplined with a wooden spoon.

Has she already got some kind of immunity?

 

[Raisedeyebrow]

Is this the lying they're charged with? She's caught cold after denying it, admitting to hitting the foster daughter in a call to the foster father.

Horrible stuff, I found this distressing. No mention of what happened before the girl said she was calling the police, why was she calling the police?

The audio begins with a female voice, possibly of the girl, saying, 'I am calling the police' and then a child screaming 'no' and crying, panting and sobbing.

Then there is the sound of a possible slap and the foster mother ordering the child, 'Stand up. Stand up'.

The child said 'no, please no, nooooooo' and then was told to 'Sit down. Sit.'

Snr Sgt Asaad told the court that in a conversation after the incident the foster mother told her husband 'she's been hit really hard with that wooden spoon. She's going to have massive welt on her leg.'

The court was played a subsequent conversation in which the foster father says, 'Oh that's not good. We've got a problem. We've got a big problem.'

William Tyrrell: Inside foster mother's secret grilling

The state's top secret crime-fighting agency has grilled William Tyrrell's foster mother accusing her of hiding the toddler's body after the boy fell from the verandah, a Sydney court has heard.

www.dailymail.co.uk

What if FM is actually describing to FF that the child (related to William) has hit the new younger foster child with a wooden spoon and left a welt.

 

[Kurve]

What if FM is actually describing to FF that the child (related to William) has hit the new younger foster child with a wooden spoon and left a welt.

It's been reported that the child complained of being regularly disciplined with the wooden spoon but as someone has brought to my attention in private messaging, the charge was knowingly lying, given the argument was that she was distressed at the time, got out of it that way.

 

[BFew]

A person is heard on recordings disciplining a child with force and an audible smacking type sound consistent with a wooden object to which the child is heard reacting. Then the accused perpetrator is intercepted on a voice call and voluntarily says she hit her with a wooden spoon hard enough to leave a welt on the child's leg, then when specifically asked whether she has hit a child with a wooden spoon - replies with no...

How is that answer not lying to the Crime Commission??

So can any lie in that commission now be argued in court that it was not a lie, it was a mistaken recollection and this is now a precedent to be let off??

I'm not at all surprised the the Foster Mother was found not guilty today.

Her charges today were not for any form of assault.

If the NSW Crime Commission had played the police audio/video tapes with evidence of this, before putting the allegations about the alleged spoon assault to the Foster Mother, and she still denied that she hit the child with a spoon, as per taped evidence, then they might have got a guilty verdict in court today, or an immediate NSW Crime Commission admission that the spoon hitting event occurred, and no grounds for charging the foster mother with false and misleading over the spoon assault incident.

Using secret, undisclosed to the person being charged, evidence to charge someone with lying about an assault (as opposed to being charged for assaulting someone) is almost asking for a not guilty verdict.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/tyrrell-foster-mother-not-guilty-of-lying-to-nsw-crime-commission/news-story/33f4659bc26aafdd9e4b05dbd33409c3

'Tyrrell’s foster mum breaks silence with heartfelt plea to police after court​

November 4, 2022 - 12:49PM'

'Ms Moody said she could not find beyond a reasonable doubt that she had willingly lied when she told the Crime Commission she “never” struck the child with a wooden spoon.
....
The foster mother’s barrister John Stratton argued it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the foster mother knowingly lied, saying she was clearly distressed during her questioning before the Crime Commission.

Ms Moody said the foster mother had made admissions about striking the child on other occasions before denying hitting the child with a spoon.

As well, Ms Moody said that during the crime commission hearing the foster mother was never played the police tapes which were used against her in the Local Court.

She was also clearly distressed – often sobbing – during the gruelling two-day crime commission hearing, where she was confronted with serious allegations that she had buried William’s body.

Ms Moody said she could not find beyond a reasonable doubt that the woman had lied.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Hit the child or not, lie about it or not...

It's one hell of a leap to either killing or covering up the death of a child, quickly swinging into Winston Wolf mode and getting rid of the body in a way that it'll never be found, sticking like glue to the story in the face of a world of pressure since and never cracking.

One hell of a leap.

It's very possible the police are completely wrong and have nothing.

Or maybe she did pull that off. Such a mind boggling case.

 

[BFew]

"Have you ever hit her with a wooden spoon?" Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan asked her.

"Never," she responded.

Maybe the Foster Mother mistakenly or genuinely thought the spoon was a plastic, metal or rubber spoon. Or even a plastic coated wooden spoon.

 

[BFew]

Well, there we go then. She'll be found guilty of the assaults, wooden spoon or not.

Or just plead guilty to one or more of the assaults before the assault charges go too much further. Or during court action, before judgement day.

 

[DropBearess]

So let's get this straight.....FM initially attempts to use a mental health defence and it's rejected. Then she is found not guilty on the grounds that her distress at the time of questioning may have made her accidentally lie!

 

[Lady O]

So let's get this straight.....FM initially attempts to use a mental health defence and it's rejected. Then she is found not guilty on the grounds that her distress at the time of questioning may have made her accidentally lie!

Yes, I was thinking these were the charges about actually hitting the child with a wooden spoon. But they are only the charges about lying to the Crime Commission about hitting the child with a wooden spoon! She apparently admitted admitted to the CC about the hitting and kicking.

The actual assault charges are yet to come before the court. At least, that's how I now understand it.

 

[JWS2019]

So let's get this straight.....FM initially attempts to use a mental health defence and it's rejected. Then she is found not guilty on the grounds that her distress at the time of questioning may have made her accidentally lie!

A little crazy right! I also note they mentioned she had been of good character

 

[Infofinder]

I remembered about the media pics of FFFC showing bruising to her ankle, and wondered if this might have happened around the same time that she was recorded kicking a foster child in her care, but the earliest use of the pic that I have found is Nov 2021, whereas her recorded kicking incident was March 2021.

The twists that changed EVERYTHING we know about William Tyrrell

After seven years of false leads, delay and police blunders Australia's most baffling missing child case was blown apart this week with bombshell twists which could lead police to finding the boy's remains.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[DropBearess]

I remembered about the media pics of FFFC showing bruising to her ankle, and wondered if this might have happened around the same time that she was recorded kicking a foster child in her care, but the earliest use of the pic that I have found is Nov 2021, whereas her recorded kicking incident was March 2021.

The twists that changed EVERYTHING we know about William Tyrrell

After seven years of false leads, delay and police blunders Australia's most baffling missing child case was blown apart this week with bombshell twists which could lead police to finding the boy's remains.

www.dailymail.co.uk

View attachment 1548663

Good spotting and welcome!

I hadn't noticed that injury before. Goodness knows how she got it. As a retired footy trainer, it looks to me like quite a nasty injury which was probably treated soon after it happened. There's clear evidence it was iced, a compression bandage applied, then supportive taping a couple of days later. It doesn't appear to be a rolled ankle sprain due to the even distribution of the bruising. It's appearance is more suggestive of kicking a hard object such as a very wet football, a sandbag, or yes, a person or large animal. The injury appears to be 4-5 days old. She shouldn't have been walking on it.

 

[DALRIADA]

APPEAL !
She was caught on tape recording ADMITTING to hitting a child with a wooden spoon.
She [S.D.] was NOT under pressure when admitting this violent assault to her husband.
The admission/s ; viz testimony by the child/children concerned cannot be ignored. If so
this sends a shocking message to children reporting assault by parents; caregivers and
school/church staff. Think about it. The CHILDREN MATTER !

 

[Kurve]

Please note that we don't use FFFC or SD to denote William's foster mother at the time he disappeared. If you're going to use initialling please use FM for foster mother as we've been doing in here for years or it gets too confusing.

Thanks.

 

[Lady O]

Did anyone see the statement on TV that she made today? Was her voice disguised or was she just teary? I don't recall her sounding like this in any of the other interviews they have done. I thought her voice sounded like a small child's.