Do Geelong deserve to host every home game + home final at Kardinia Park?

[BF Tiger]

yes Scarlett was also very undersized for a fullback and was built like Dustin Fletcher only a lot shorter.
I don’t doubt that he would have been a good player no matter lot - along with King he was the only AA from our golden era who achieved it before we got good (aside from ottens who was at Richmond) but he didn’t have people queuing up to get him

Shorter than Fletcher but not particularly short for the era. Same height as Daniel Glass. Alex Rance and Steve Silvagni were only 2cm taller, Brian Lake 3 cm taller. Plenty of players are drafted scrawny. IMHO Scarlett falls into the free hit category for Geelong where some other team may have drafted him earlier, maybe not first round but before the late third round pick that Geelong used.

Developed into one of the best.

 

[PhatBoy]

I didn’t mention Geelong…. I was replying to your assessment of Richmond’s away form.. In 3-years from 2017-19 Adelaide made a GF, Eagles won a GF, GWS won finals in all 3 seasons and made a GF, Port made finals, Brisbane made finals, Sydney made finals twice.

In a good portion of Geelong’s numbers from 2011 : GWS and Gold Coast were fledgling clubs and Brisbane were uncompetitive.

Geelong’s away record is superb and has been for a long time. Richmond’s away record is not as strong, but the relative strength of interstate teams overall from 2017-19 certainly impacts that.


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My assessment of Richmonds away form wasn’t disparaging. It shows they have a winning record playing opponents on their home ground. My point was ours as a percentage over a three times as long period, is better, so it puts to bed the notion that we only win at home because the ground gives us some huge advantage. We win there because we are good

 

[Wojcinski]

Shorter than Fletcher but not particularly short for the era. Same height as Daniel Glass. Alex Rance and Steve Silvagni were only 2cm taller, Brian Lake 3 cm taller. Plenty of players are drafted scrawny. IMHO Scarlett falls into the free hit category for Geelong where some other team may have drafted him earlier, maybe not first round but before the late third round pick that Geelong used.

Developed into one of the best.

The only real free hit we got from F/S was Hawkins. From memory he was likely a top 5 if not for F/S. Ablett wasn't highly rated and Scarlett would have been drafted but it would have been around the 2nd/3rd round anyway

 

[Noidnadroj]

The only real free hit we got from F/S was Hawkins. From memory he was likely a top 5 if not for F/S. Ablett wasn't highly rated and Scarlett would have been drafted but it would have been around the 2nd/3rd round anyway

Ok … a lot of history getting re-written here, so time for some facts - a few simple Google searches can assist:

1. Gary Ablett was not some unrated small forward likely to go 3rd-4th round. He was rated as a late first or early second round selection. Geelong gave him a THREE year contract before he’d set foot in the place … not something you’d give a mid-range draftee..?? Geelong got Bartel at 8, Kelly at 17 and Stevie J at 24. In today’s system Geelong likely miss out on at least one of Kelly or SJ.

2. It’s harder to find any history on Scarlett. Named FB in team of the year. But given Cats I think got Marc woolnough as a father-son before Scarlett I’ll accept he wasn’t that highly rated.

3. Tom Hawkins was a definite top-3 and many rated number one. In today’s system Geelong would have to use their pick-7 to get him…. who’d they get at pick-7 again? Oh, Selwood.

So in the current system they get Hawkins and no Selwood. If no father-son they get Selwood. In the rules of 2006 they got both.

In the current system or with no father-son they probably get Bartel, Kelly and Ablett but no SJ. In the rules of 2001 they got all of them.

I’ve no idea what would have happened with Scarlett. Given Geelong rated Woolnough ahead of him then it’s most likely without father-son Scarlett ends up somewhere else, as it sounds like he could have gone anywhere from 35-60 as Geelong didn’t rate him that highly… but who knows ..??

Anyway….it was interesting reviewing historical articles as memories clearly fade and the facts of the day become a little hazy.


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[GhostofJimJess]

Can we all also stop getting sucked into the PR spin of the AFL saying finals are played at venues for the “fans”.. you have to be pretty dumb of a Richmond supporter to actually believe this.

the biggest game of the year the grand final is the complete opposite of being about the fans, it’s just corporate after corporate tickets handed out to people who doesn’t even know who Garry ablett is.. I literally had the privilege of sitting behind some of the “ fans” the AFL looks after in the 2009 grand final and one said “who is no 29?”. Yeah yeah.. it’s all about the “fans” AFL.

not to mention higher ticketing prices in the interest of the “Fans” during finals… so let’s stop the garbage talk and get a few more brain cells active in the head. The AFL doesn’t care about fans, they care about $$$$$

there is no reason whatsoever Geelong shouldn't host finals in Geelong if the AFL doesn't want to become hypocritical on its own equalisation policies.

I guess equalisation only matters as long as $$$ is prioritised

Yeah, you make some really good points in there. But one thing to remember when talking about potential home finals in Geelong is that the ticketing profile would look very little like a normal H&A home match. Allocation to visiting members in any final has to be 10k, and then there's corporates, AFL members and finals series ticket holders who would also need to be factored in. That leaves only about 10-15k of the total 36k seats for all of the 66k Geelong members.

So the next argument that will inevitably arise will come from the disgruntled masses who miss out, most likely aimed at non-Geelong fans who were given tix at the expense of local diehards.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yeah, you make some really good points in there. But one thing to remember when talking about potential home finals in Geelong is that the ticketing profile would look very little like a normal H&A home match. Allocation to visiting members in any final has to be 10k, and then there's corporates, AFL members and finals series ticket holders who would also need to be factored in. That leaves only about 10-15k of the total 36k seats for all of the 66k Geelong members.

So the next argument that will inevitably arise will come from the disgruntled masses who miss out, most likely aimed at non-Geelong fans who were given tix at the expense of local diehards.

All fair logistical the points which i am sure can be worked through to factor in. I doubt its the overarching problem the AFL has. The AFL just simply looks for the biggest pile of money. There is absolutely nothing logical about the finals being for fans. It simply isnt and never has been, but its simply convenient PR marketing to spin that message out to fans who are willing to believe it

 

[Noidnadroj]

All fair logistical the points which i am sure can be worked through to factor in. I doubt its the overarching problem the AFL has. The AFL just simply looks for the biggest pile of money. There is absolutely nothing logical about the finals being for fans. It simply isnt and never has been, but its simply convenient PR marketing to spin that message out to fans who are willing to believe it

I think the major issue is with finals series tickets. I’m not sure how much money they make from those but it would be squillions. Selling a finals series ticket that includes a marquee final at the MCG is an easy sell. KP can’t be included in the series ticket…. Or if it is no-one will buy it.

There’s also the issue of AFL memberships that cost people $450+. At the moment it includes the first 2 weeks of finals which are obviously easy to accommodate via the G. KP not so much.

I agree it’s mostly about the $$. When the AFL funds Auskick, grassroots sport and the clubs it’s not an unreasonable motivation.


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[Wojcinski]

Ok … a lot of history getting re-written here, so time for some facts - a few simple Google searches can assist:

1. Gary Ablett was not some unrated small forward likely to go 3rd-4th round. He was rated as a late first or early second round selection. Geelong gave him a THREE year contract before he’d set foot in the place … not something you’d give a mid-range draftee..?? Geelong got Bartel at 8, Kelly at 17 and Stevie J at 24. In today’s system Geelong likely miss out on at least one of Kelly or SJ.

2. It’s harder to find any history on Scarlett. Named FB in team of the year. But given Cats I think got Marc woolnough as a father-son before Scarlett I’ll accept he wasn’t that highly rated.

3. Tom Hawkins was a definite top-3 and many rated number one. In today’s system Geelong would have to use their pick-7 to get him…. who’d they get at pick-7 again? Oh, Selwood.

So in the current system they get Hawkins and no Selwood. If no father-son they get Selwood. In the rules of 2006 they got both.

In the current system or with no father-son they probably get Bartel, Kelly and Ablett but no SJ. In the rules of 2001 they got all of them.

I’ve no idea what would have happened with Scarlett. Given Geelong rated Woolnough ahead of him then it’s most likely without father-son Scarlett ends up somewhere else, as it sounds like he could have gone anywhere from 35-60 as Geelong didn’t rate him that highly… but who knows ..??

Anyway….it was interesting reviewing historical articles as memories clearly fade and the facts of the day become a little hazy.


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Nothing you've said is inaccurate other than Ablett, I definitely remember that he wasn't highly rated as a junior other than by his name. But yes no one will deny we did well with F/S, just like other clubs did well with priority picks back then.

 

[JohnZ]

Yeah, you make some really good points in there. But one thing to remember when talking about potential home finals in Geelong is that the ticketing profile would look very little like a normal H&A home match. Allocation to visiting members in any final has to be 10k, and then there's corporates, AFL members and finals series ticket holders who would also need to be factored in. That leaves only about 10-15k of the total 36k seats for all of the 66k Geelong members.

So the next argument that will inevitably arise will come from the disgruntled masses who miss out, most likely aimed at non-Geelong fans who were given tix at the expense of local diehards.

Cats fans have already said they don't care if they miss out, integrity comes first. How many cats fans were at the MCG in 2017 for that QF final? 25k tops. Not that many missing out really.

 

[Jemaine]

If GWS can host a prelim in their boutique stadium then anyone can.

The fact that this is even up for discussion is ridiculous. Imagine Liverpool having to play their home game against United at Old Trafford just because it holds 23,000 more seats than Anfield.

There would be literal riots in the streets. If people miss out then so be it, nobody has a given right to attend whatever game they want.

 

[Sttew]

What pi55es me off is the absolute arrogance and hypocrisy of the AFL. Geelong FC is still waiting for an official explanation why its home game being played before a zero crowd still has to be played at the opposition club's home ground with GMHBA lying dormant. Its obviously too late now, but wouldn't you think that the AFL could have got on the phone to Brian Cook and say "here's where we are coming from"? Instead we get media snippets about signage contracts and other garbage. The AFL has lost even more credibility over this issue.

 

[BF Tiger]

If GWS can host a prelim in their boutique stadium then anyone can.

The fact that this is even up for discussion is ridiculous. Imagine Liverpool having to play their home game against United at Old Trafford just because it holds 23,000 more seats than Anfield.

There would be literal riots in the streets. If people miss out then so be it, nobody has a given right to attend whatever game they want.

Does KP fit in 77,000 fans?

 

[JohnZ]

Does KP fit in 77,000 fans?

MCG holds 100k people.

Minus 50k for MCC and AFL members, most of which are neutrals at a final.

Geelong will hold 40k once Stage 5 is done. 40k v 50k actual supporters at the ground.

You've been to the grand final, you know it's true. It's not an event for the true fans.

 

[Jemaine]

Does KP fit in 77,000 fans?

Imagine being this entitled.

Having worked for one of the small-mid Premier League club back in the day I can say that having true partisan crowds was something to behold.

Attitudes like yours are unfortunate, I guess as long as you are happy that your team always gets treated better than others then that's fine and dandy.

 

[Sttew]

Does KP fit in 77,000 fans?

Does Spotless Stadium?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Cats fans have already said they don't care if they miss out, integrity comes first. How many cats fans were at the MCG in 2017 for that QF final? 25k tops. Not that many missing out really.

It was sold out. Only 25k were there as Richmond supporters were far more desperate for tickets than Geelong supporters. I remember talkback in relation to missing out on tickets ….loads of supporters missed out and many complaining were Geelong supporters. Perhaps 15,000 missed out on seeing it at the G. Which means 75,000 would have missed out if at KP.


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[Sky]

Geelong bottomed out in 2003. They're different from other clubs in being able to sustain a position near the top once they got there.

Year	Ladder	Avg Age
1998	12th	24.21
1999	11th	24.99
2000	7th	24.52
2001	12th	24.66
2002	9th	23.55
2003	12th	23.25
2004	4th	23.74
2005	5th	24.08
2006	10th	24.46
...
2020	4th	27.20
2021	3rd*	27.62

In the six drafts 1998-2003 Geelong had picks #7 x 2, #8 x 2, #11, #15, #17 x 3, #20, #21, #22, #23 x 3, #24 x 2. None at the pointy end, but a lot of decent picks.

Is it really bottoming out when 12th wasn’t even bottom four back then and isn’t bottom six to this day? We’ve never finished below 12th in history but I’d be keen to find out how many times we have come 12th Pretty sure most of those finishes resulted in wooden spoons.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Ok … a lot of history getting re-written here, so time for some facts - a few simple Google searches can assist:

1. Gary Ablett was not some unrated small forward likely to go 3rd-4th round. He was rated as a late first or early second round selection. Geelong gave him a THREE year contract before he’d set foot in the place … not something you’d give a mid-range draftee..?? Geelong got Bartel at 8, Kelly at 17 and Stevie J at 24. In today’s system Geelong likely miss out on at least one of Kelly or SJ.

2. It’s harder to find any history on Scarlett. Named FB in team of the year. But given Cats I think got Marc woolnough as a father-son before Scarlett I’ll accept he wasn’t that highly rated.

3. Tom Hawkins was a definite top-3 and many rated number one. In today’s system Geelong would have to use their pick-7 to get him…. who’d they get at pick-7 again? Oh, Selwood.

So in the current system they get Hawkins and no Selwood. If no father-son they get Selwood. In the rules of 2006 they got both.

In the current system or with no father-son they probably get Bartel, Kelly and Ablett but no SJ. In the rules of 2001 they got all of them.

I’ve no idea what would have happened with Scarlett. Given Geelong rated Woolnough ahead of him then it’s most likely without father-son Scarlett ends up somewhere else, as it sounds like he could have gone anywhere from 35-60 as Geelong didn’t rate him that highly… but who knows ..??

Anyway….it was interesting reviewing historical articles as memories clearly fade and the facts of the day become a little hazy.


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So what you're saying is...
Geelong should be playing all their home games Kardinia Park?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Is it really bottoming out when 12th wasn’t even bottom four back then and isn’t bottom six to this day? We’ve never finished below 12th in history but I’d be keen to find out how many times we have come 12th Pretty sure most of those finishes resulted in wooden spoons.

Well that was the bottom of the rebuild. Geelong was the youngest team for the only time since 1955. They were 14th-youngest the following year and finished top four. Obviously the quality of the youth was well above average and kept them from finishing lower. Geelong obviously thought they had enough quality stockpiled as they traded two first-rounders for Ottens.

 

[Sky]

Well that was the bottom of the rebuild. Geelong was the youngest team for the only time since 1955. They were 14th-youngest the following year and finished top four. Obviously the quality of the youth was well above average and kept them from finishing lower.

So it’s not because having 6-7 games at Kardinia Park back then which is now 9 propping us up yearly? I go for Geelong and genuinely believe that as fact.

 

[caveman72]

Hawkins/Ablett/Scarlett : three walk up start hall-of-famers and one legend gifted via father/son. What great skill that took. About as much skill as Danger’s family living in Moggs Creek.




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Is it Geelongs fault that other teams greatest sons have sired daughters instead of sons

 

[Ron The Bear]

So it’s not because having 6-7 games at Kardinia Park back then which is now 9 propping us up yearly? I go for Geelong and genuinely believe that as fact.

It probably helped. Geelong's strike rate at home for the six years 1998-2003 was better than their away record (23-24-1 v 35-49-1).

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Is it Geelongs fault that other teams greatest sons have sired daughters instead of sons

Exactly. So much salt for nothing.

And yes, Geelong do deserve to host every home game at Kardinia Park. 36,000 capacity, great facilities, great pubs nearby.

 

[JohnZ]

Which means 75,000 would have missed out if at KP.

How many were neutral? 50k. I don't care if they miss out. They're not entitled to a finals seat

 

[Noidnadroj]

How many were neutral? 50k. I don't care if they miss out. They're not entitled to a finals seat

You obviously didn’t go to the 2017 QF…. Very few neutrals. And did you see the 2017 PF … Rich v GWS? Almost zero neutrals. What about Pies v GWS 2019 PF? 80,000 Pie fans. Only the Grand Final has a high proportion of neutrals. But as you say, Geelong fans aren’t fussed about missing big finals games live, they are very happy to watch on TV.


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