Does the Academy selections encourage tanking?

[Number37]

Yeh I remember all the handouts Richmond got. Remember when we were called the "worst team since Fitzroy"? Yeh we got a nice pick 6 as our first pick that year. Pick 15 the next year! In drafts that already had players taken from them!
While Sydney finish top 4 and get access to better players.

You don't think father-sons are access to better players for nothing?
Only seemed to become a problem the year after the Pies got their F/S.
Wait until the next wave of above average F/S comes through, the bidding system will quickly disappear, like everything else, if it is an advantage to Victorian clubs (like the biggest rort in the AFL , the draw) then "nothing to see here".

 

[Tedeski]

This reminds me of the CoLA debate, and posters trying to justify players needing an extra 50-100k a year to account for cost of living differences.

It just reminds me of this time every year when against everyone's pre season predictions of how far we will drop, we actually sit near the top end of the ladder & the short sighted reason is ALWAYS because of our 'advantages', but these are NEVER mentioned prior to round one when the discussion is about how we will be the team to drop down. Mainly because we have a suspect backline which contains reject players such as Laidler & "ageing" players such as Richards & Grundy.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

You don't think father-sons are access to better players for nothing?
Only seemed to become a problem the year after the Pies got their F/S.
Wait until the next wave of above average F/S comes through, the bidding system will quickly disappear, like everything else, if it is an advantage to Victorian clubs (like the biggest rort in the AFL , the draw) then "nothing to see here".

I agree, get rid of all of them and have a pure draft.

 

[Tuco]

No academy equals no Mills
No Mills equals we take Dunkley under Father Son rule
We take Dunkley and you don't get Dunkley

Win win for you yet?

Expanding on this point,

The revised bidding system meant the Swans couldn't afford to match the Doggies' offer - we might have tried, but it likely would have excluded us from the live draft(s).

Essentially there is no "free shot" at players anymore. Those whinging about Heeney are complsining about a system that no longer exists.

 

[Tuco]

So the academies are helping Cartlon and St Kilda now? You sir are a muppet.

4 clubs benefit from the academies and the rest are hindered because 4 clubs have a distinct and unfair advantage on them.

St Kilda landed their trade target Carlisle with Sydney's help. We threw in Bird and pick 14 to help.

Carlton were massively active with GWS.

Doggies landed Dunkley because of the bidding system.

So yes.

 

[Doggy Dan]

St Kilda landed their trade target Carlisle with Sydney's help. We threw in Bird and pick 14 to help.

Carlton were massively active with GWS.

Doggies landed Dunkley because of the bidding system.

So yes.

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

 

[Mateyman]

Over time, all clubs will benefit as the academies will almost certainly produce more AFL-ready players than the northern state clubs are able to draft in any given year.

Heck, LAST YEAR we even saw clubs trading up in the draft order so that the northern clubs could accumulate enough points to bid on their academy players:

Non-academy club - ended up with a higher draft pick than before, IMPROVING their overall position in the draft at very little cost
Academy club - received enough points to bid on the player they wanted

Looks like a win-win situation to me.

That's reassuring. There will be so many superstar players available to Sydney, GWS etc. that they won't be able to take all of them and the other 14 clubs might get a couple of the spillovers not good enough to get drafted by the northern clubs

 

[Mateyman]

With 18 clubs we need a much bigger talent pool than when there were only 14 clubs. It is only logical, otherwise the standard of the competition is only going to get worse.

This is a strange argument. A modern team would demolish one from the 70s, 80s or even 90s most likely. Did people not watch footy at that time because the standard was too low?

 

[Tuco]

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

Oh the irony.

Every Academy thread should start with that comment, followed by a QED, followed by a lock.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

I know exactly which picks were used to get Mills, i know that they were picks in the 30's, it's also obvious that you're extremely reluctant to admit it because you realise the massive advantage it is to Sydney.

Yeah but they traded players and picks to get the picks to be used for the bids.

you really are just trolling now aren't you. Regardless of what is said or how well something is explained to you, you decide to remain aggressively ignorant.

And he wasn't reluctant to admit it. He spelled it out in great detail. You just chose to be stupid about it. Like every other post you've made in this thread.

Pathetic.

 

[Mateyman]

The usual Victorian whingers with the usual it is all about Victorian teams. BORING.
Get over the fact that there are northern academies and that northern teams will get benefits from these academies.
Yeah we get it, Victorians don't give a crap if the game is made stronger in NSW & Qld. What is important is if the Big4 are sh!te and how the AFL can give them a leg up financially and with draft picks so that they don't suck so much.
Add up all the benefits given to Victorian teams and compare that to the benefits given to Northern teams.
The supposed stronghold of AFL is nothing more than a basket case waiting for its next handout.

Complains about handouts to big 4 teams while defending handouts to northern teams

 

[Baz_hawk]

Isn't that exactly what happened? Our first pick after drafting Mills was 51

Yes and no. Your club basically stocked up on middle of the range picks and converted picks 33, 36, 37 and 43 into pick 3. I know if my club traded pick 3 for those picks I'd be filthy on what a shit deal we got and yet this is what you did. Your next pick isn't really relevant as the recruiting team planned exactly for this.

It's not really a even playing field when a team who finishes 5th for the year can pick up a top 3 pick without having to give up anything.

 

[FreeAgent1]

My take,

Do the northern teams get advantages from academy players yes, in a relative talent pool this in turn disadvantages the non academy teams.

Will academies help AFL in the long run, yes, does that help at all now... No not really. After the new rule changes the advantages of the academies are reduced, but still an advantage.

There are advantages all throughout the Comp, this is one of the biggest. The Hawks fans correct response to all swans fans complaints over MCG GF is "take it up with the AFL, we don't set the GF at our home ground". This is a logical and reasonable response.

The same response should be used for academies, does it help the AFL-yes, should the AFL run it- hell yea. Until they do don't blame th swans for running with it, just like I blame the Afl not the Hawks for the MCG advantage.

 

[momentbymoment]

Relax guys.
As soon as there are an equivalent ratio of players in the northern states as everywhere else the academies will close. They only exist to grow the game.

 

[Doggy Dan]

Expanding on this point,

The revised bidding system meant the Swans couldn't afford to match the Doggies' offer - we might have tried, but it likely would have excluded us from the live draft(s).

Essentially there is no "free shot" at players anymore. Those whinging about Heeney are complsining about a system that no longer exists.

Bulls*t and bullsh*t again. Swans had enough points and could've taken Dunkley, SWANS chose not to! You expect us to thank-you for your scraps?

 

[TiggerMan22]

Get any decent draft picks between, say, 2004 and 2009?

Sure. That wasn't under Dimma and during our new rebuild tho.
We bottomed out 2010, unfortunately when GC came in.

 

[Walter H White]

"probably" doesnt cut it.
if Heeny kiccks the winning goal against hawthorn in the prelim final this year i can console myself with the fact if sydney didnt have him, nobody would??
at the end of the day in an adversarial competition with a draft, one team having access to a pool of players makes a mockery of the system. it is what it is but dont make out like its not an advantage . points system only alleviates it.

Teams that rely on priority picks to rebuild make a mockery of the system.

 

[Tedeski]

Bulls*t and bullsh*t again. Swans had enough points and could've taken Dunkley, SWANS chose not to! You expect us to thank-you for your scraps?

Yep!

 

[threenewpadlocks]

God there's some closed minds in this thread.

The AFL is an organisation that aims to promote the game of Australian Rules Football in Australia and Worldwide. Running a single national professional competition is part of that aim to promote the game as a whole.

They've implemented processes to increase youth participation and provide professional opportunities for players in non-traditional areas to participate in the game of Australian Rules Football professionally. Before the academies, the last 1st round draft pick out of NSW/ACT was Jarrad McVeigh back in 2002. Now we have the likes of Hopper, Kennedy, Himmelberg, Heeney, Mills from NSW/ACT after 10 years of not having a single first round talent out of that area. Heeney comes from the greater Newcastle area, one of the strongest Rugby/Soccer heartlands in the country of which as far as I'm aware not a single league footballer has come from in the professional era.

Part of this investment comes from club investment, in a monetary sense, and with club branding on the academies, and with preference given to for these players to play for clubs in their home state (something that's all but guaranteed if they played Rugby), more are likely to stick with the game.

Arguing over the impact over the talent pool is stupid. The talent pool is clearly expanded. Players from traditional states which might otherwise have gotten drafted but might not have been of AFL quality would now not get drafted. That is a fact.

 

[Doggy Dan]

My take,

Do the northern teams get advantages from academy players yes, in a relative talent pool this in turn disadvantages the non academy teams.

Will academies help AFL in the long run, yes, does that help at all now... No not really. After the new rule changes the advantages of the academies are reduced, but still an advantage.

There are advantages all throughout the Comp, this is one of the biggest. The Hawks fans correct response to all swans fans complaints over MCG GF is "take it up with the AFL, we don't set the GF at our home ground". This is a logical and reasonable response.

The same response should be used for academies, does it help the AFL-yes, should the AFL run it- hell yea. Until they do don't blame th swans for running with it, just like I blame the Afl not the Hawks for the MCG advantage.

Finally a response with a modicum of sense, thank-you.

 

[TiggerMan22]

You don't think father-sons are access to better players for nothing?
Only seemed to become a problem the year after the Pies got their F/S.
Wait until the next wave of above average F/S comes through, the bidding system will quickly disappear, like everything else, if it is an advantage to Victorian clubs (like the biggest rort in the AFL , the draw) then "nothing to see here".

Yeh thats the same thing, I agree.
Richmond hasn't had a Father/Son since 2003, Sydney got Tom Mitchell in 2011. So dont you complain about Victorian advantage bs.

 

[Bleeeeeeeeep]

Relax guys.
As soon as there are an equivalent ratio of players in the northern states as everywhere else the academies will close. They only exist to grow the game.

Isn't Auskick enough??? I can't see how an academy grows the game.
I heard a radio discussion last year saying for the good of the game you need a strong Sydney swans and the advantages they get are justified. My love of the game died a little more that day. The off field game has been a pile of sh*t for awhile now and i can't see it improving, not only the swans but with certain melbourne teams having 14 odd games at the MCG etc. The system isn't fair on many counts.

 

[Doggy Dan]

God there's some closed minds in this thread.

The AFL is an organisation that aims to promote the game of Australian Rules Football in Australia and Worldwide. Running a single national professional competition is part of that aim to promote the game as a whole.

They've implemented processes to increase youth participation and provide professional opportunities for players in non-traditional areas to participate in the game of Australian Rules Football professionally. Before the academies, the last 1st round draft pick out of NSW/ACT was Jarrad McVeigh back in 2002. Now we have the likes of Hopper, Kennedy, Himmelberg, Heeney, Mills from NSW/ACT after 10 years of not having a single first round talent out of that area. Heeney comes from the greater Newcastle area, one of the strongest Rugby/Soccer heartlands in the country of which as far as I'm aware not a single league footballer has come from in the professional era.

Part of this investment comes from club investment, in a monetary sense, and with club branding on the academies, and with preference given to for these players to play for clubs in their home state (something that's all but guaranteed if they played Rugby), more are likely to stick with the game.

Arguing over the impact over the talent pool is stupid. The talent pool is clearly expanded. Players from traditional states which might otherwise have gotten drafted but might not have been of AFL quality would now not get drafted. That is a fact.

When has anyone said the talent pool hasn't been expanded?

Everyone arguing the point has not complained about the academies as a breeding ground for talent, but the fact that this talent isn't introduced to the overall draft.

*Before you tell me it's about them staying at home, do you realise how far Leeton is from Blacktown?

 

[Scotland]

Sure. That wasn't under Dimma and during our new rebuild tho.
We bottomed out 2010, unfortunately when GC came in.

You bottom out a lot. Like in 2004 when you came last. Or 2007 when you came last. Or 2009 when you came 2nd last.

Hardwick walked in and got pick 3 which was used to select Dustin Martin. After his first year the team finished 2nd last and he got pick 6 instead of pick 2. After his second year he got pick 14 instead of pick 6.

Considering he had 21 year old Riewoldt and Edwards, 22 year old Deledio, 20 year old Rance and 19 year old Cotchin and Vickery he can dry his tears over feeling hard done by about the 2010/11 drafts.

 

[Suma Magic]

It just reminds me of this time every year when against everyone's pre season predictions of how far we will drop, we actually sit near the top end of the ladder & the short sighted reason is ALWAYS because of our 'advantages', but these are NEVER mentioned prior to round one when the discussion is about how we will be the team to drop down. Mainly because we have a suspect backline which contains reject players such as Laidler & "ageing" players such as Richards & Grundy.

You have had benefits in recent years. But your performance is way above what could be explained by CoLA and the academy system. Your club has been amazing ensuring that they are at the top, year after year.

You made us look silly on the weekend.