Does the Academy selections encourage tanking?

[TiggerMan22]

You bottom out a lot. Like in 2004 when you came last. Or 2007 when you came last. Or 2009 when you came 2nd last.

Hardwick walked in and got pick 3 which was used to select Dustin Martin. After his first year the team finished 2nd last and he got pick 6 instead of pick 2. After his second year he got pick 14 instead of pick 6.

Considering he had 21 year old Riewoldt and Edwards, 22 year old Deledio, 20 year old Rance and 19 year old Cotchin and Vickery he can dry his tears over feeling hard done by about the 2010/11 drafts.

When Hardwick came in he cleaned out the list, thats when our rebuild started. That was after the 2009 season. What happened in 2004 is quite irrelevant.
We got pick 15, not 14, instead of 6. In a draft that already had players like Treloar, Sheil and Cameron taken out of it.
So basically our pick 6 turned into a second rounder. Also it was 10/11 and 12 drafts.

And the only reason we came second last in 2010, was because you guys tanked so hard and finished below the team that was considered one of the worst ever.
But this is what you get in AFL for trying, you get shit. We should have tanked for the next 2 years instead of improving.

Yeh great you can look back now and see the talent he had, but Deledio was the only one that was a star at the time.
The rest barely played/injured all the time/shit/. Rance was a forward when Hardwick came in.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

When has anyone said the talent pool hasn't been expanded?

Everyone arguing the point has not complained about the academies as a breeding ground for talent, but the fact that this talent isn't introduced to the overall draft.

*Before you tell me it's about them staying at home, do you realise how far Leeton is from Blacktown?

But these players have been introduced to the draft. All clubs theoretically have a chance to pick up any one of the academy players.
The northern clubs only have to pay 80% of the points of other clubs and the right to match bids as reward for the monetary investment that they put into the academies and as a form of equalisation given the fact that in general they have to recruit players from other states (go-home factor) more than other clubs. But if a club believed that Harrison Himmelberg was worth pick 1 and bidded for him with that pick, fair chance that GWS wouldn't have matched it.

 

[Scotland]

God there's some closed minds in this thread.

The AFL is an organisation that aims to promote the game of Australian Rules Football in Australia and Worldwide. Running a single national professional competition is part of that aim to promote the game as a whole.

And plenty of people don't really care. Who goes along to games on the weekend thinking about promotion of the game as a whole?

They've implemented processes to increase youth participation and provide professional opportunities for players in non-traditional areas to participate in the game of Australian Rules Football professionally. Before the academies, the last 1st round draft pick out of NSW/ACT was Jarrad McVeigh back in 2002. Now we have the likes of Hopper, Kennedy, Himmelberg, Heeney, Mills from NSW/ACT after 10 years of not having a single first round talent out of that area. Heeney comes from the greater Newcastle area, one of the strongest Rugby/Soccer heartlands in the country of which as far as I'm aware not a single league footballer has come from in the professional era.

And this is all great. The more kids playing footy to any level the better. But what level of compromise in the premier competition of the code is acceptable to 'grow the game'?

Let's go with the 'no academies, no Heeney' school of thought. If there was no pathway for a kid from Newcastle to the AFL would he have taken up rugby league or soccer instead? Perhaps. If there was a pathway to the AFL but no guarantee of playing for the Swans or Giants, then what?

Talented athletes exist in all states in Australia. If I was good enough to play for Wildcats or Western Force or Western Warriors I could just join them, assuming they want me. If I was the Sandover Medalist at 18 and wanted to play for the Eagles I'd have to go into the draft. Why should NSW/Qld be different?

Part of this investment comes from club investment, in a monetary sense, and with club branding on the academies, and with preference given to for these players to play for clubs in their home state (something that's all but guaranteed if they played Rugby), more are likely to stick with the game.

I think the money side of it is dubious considering that GC and GWS are owned by the AFL anyway, but that's an aside. My club has plenty of money, but no academy. Apparently we'll all have them soon (watered down of course) but it's yet another reactionary step from the AFL which came about after pressure RE: the Northern academies. The best outcome is more kids in NSW/Qld being drafted, not just more kids in NSW/Qld ending up at the clubs in those states.

Arguing over the impact over the talent pool is stupid. The talent pool is clearly expanded. Players from traditional states which might otherwise have gotten drafted but might not have been of AFL quality would now not get drafted. That is a fact.

I don't think anyone has argued against deeper talent pool, but if you're not really allowed to fish in it then what's the point? My club has Gaff, Shuey, Hurn, Redden, Duggan, Nelson, Butler, Schofield etc. all from outside WA. If we finish last and the best kid in the country is from NSW we should be able to draft him, because if a NSW/Qld club finishes last and the best kid is from WA they are going to pick him...

 

[Number37]

Complains about handouts to big 4 teams while defending handouts to northern teams

I wasn't complaining, just pointing out the hypocrisy.

 

[DaVillaBlues]

I think its naive and idiotic to assume that there is always going to be a Heeney and Mills in every
Swans or GWS academy every year. It's an amazing piece of luck for The Swans, and honestly would be nice and good for the comp if Brisbane can find a few of those in their academies.

It's better for the comp to have a stronger/more competitive Brisbane than the basket case we've seem over the past decade.

People need to stop putting selfish club interests ahead of the welfare of the code.

 

[Scotland]

When Hardwick came in he cleaned out the list, thats when our rebuild started. That was after the 2009 season. What happened in 2004 is quite irrelevant.
We got pick 15, not 14, instead of 6. In a draft that already had players like Treloar, Sheil and Cameron taken out of it.
So basically our pick 6 turned into a second rounder. Also it was 10/11 and 12 drafts.

And the only reason we came second last in 2010, was because you guys tanked so hard and finished below the team that was considered one of the worst ever.
But this is what you get in AFL for trying, you get shit. We should have tanked for the next 2 years instead of improving.

Yeh great you can look back now and see the talent he had, but Deledio was the only one that was a star at the time.
The rest barely played/injured all the time/shit/. Rance was a forward when Hardwick came in.

No, you had pick 14. You decided to trade it to GWS for 15 and Steven Morris.

What happened in prior to 2009 is absolutely relevant to your latest rebuild. It'd be like Carlton complaining that they only got pick 6 in 2008 after having pick 1 the previous three years. I think I'll claim that our rebuid started when Adam Simpson arrived and just ignore every play drafted before 2013.

The compromised drafts affected everybody. If your pick 6 was a 'second rounder' then so was our pick 4, Brisbane's pick 5 and Essendon's pick 8. Other teams actually won games prior to 2010 so didn't stockpile top 10 picks and other teams still won games in 2010/11 so were lucky to get a pick in the 20s those years. Richmond also lost no uncontracted players to the expansion sides and their only loss to FA has been Matthew White who they could easily have kept.

Richmond are no more hard done by than anyone else. If anything being rubbish in the years leading up to 2010/11 put them at an advantage for teams hoping to be contending about now.

 

[Scotland]

I think its naive and idiotic to assume that there is always going to be a Heeney and Mills in every
Swans or GWS academy every year. It's an amazing piece of luck for The Swans, and honestly would be nice and good for the comp if Brisbane can find a few of those in their academies.

Does anyone assume there will be?

This century there has only been one #1 pick out of WA, but I still reckon first dibs on WAFL draftees would be a huge advantage.

The problem is that the academy clubs just socialise their losses. If there's a gun kid from NSW then a NSW club gets him because 'they developed him'. If there's no gun kid from NSW they just take a kid from Victoria because 'there isn't enough local talent'.

It's better for the comp to have a stronger/more competitive Brisbane than the basket case we've seem over the past decade.

People need to stop putting selfish club interests ahead of the welfare of the code.

The hole Brisbane have found themselves in is as much their own fault as anyone else's, but the timing absolutely stinks with Gold Coast coming in while they were imploding.

Pretty sure all clubs put self interest ahead of the welfare of the code.

 

[Colonial]

That's reassuring. There will be so many superstar players available to Sydney, GWS etc. that they won't be able to take all of them and the other 14 clubs might get a couple of the spillovers not good enough to get drafted by the northern clubs

Yes well we get sick of drafting players who play the homesick card to go home. This way they already are home

 

[Scotland]

Yes well we get sick of drafting players who play the homesick card to go home. This way they already are home

Yet the NSW/Qld clubs keep drafting players from SA, WA and Victoria.

 

[Colonial]

Yet the NSW/Qld clubs keep drafting players from SA, WA and Victoria.

Really? The last draft were all academy players. Looking ahead, it seems to be the same this year as well.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

Teams that rely on priority picks to rebuild make a mockery of the system.

LOL

you'ree still the 2nd best team of the decade champ..

on that
how many father/sons in that team??

 

[Scotland]

Really? The last draft were all academy players. Looking ahead, it seems to be the same this year as well.

For GWS. You aren't alone North of the Victorian border.

No doubt once your well is dry you'll be back to the TAC Cup, WAFL Colts etc. complaining that there aren't enough good playings coming through in NSW.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

The talent pool will actually be better. Guys like Mills would not be in the competition without the academy so it means instead of the Swans drafting a Victorian we are drafting a New South Welshman who would not have otherwise of been drafted at all, so it makes the talent pool better for everyone.

What a great way to justify your cheating concessions to yourself, smh sydney supporters.

 

[Colonial]

For GWS. You aren't alone North of the Victorian border.

No doubt once your well is dry you'll be back to the TAC Cup, WAFL Colts etc. complaining that there aren't enough good playings coming through in NSW.

Swans only drafted from the academy like us, fairly certain as did the Lions and Suns (I could be wrong on the Qld ones though)

 

[Colonial]

What a great way to justify your cheating concessions to yourself, smh sydney supporters.

Umm its not cheating if its in the rules. Can see why a Blues fan gets mixed up.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Umm its not cheating if its in the rules. Can see why a Blues fan gets mixed up.

Who's rules? The corrupt AFL's rules? It's not in my rules of a fair competition.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Yet the NSW/Qld clubs keep drafting players from SA, WA and Victoria.

Instead of taking 4 or 5 kids of different skill level like everyone else they just take 3 of the best kids in the draft every year and call it fair.

 

[Roylion]

Fremantle finishes last they get pick 1.
fremantle wins the flag they get in real terms 18 + the amount of acadamy and father son bids there are.. eg 5 acadamy and F/S = 18 +5= 23 essentially.
point is the higher you finish, the more diluted your pick is.

Only if an Academy selection is bid on by other clubs in the first round. If it is, the draft picks that the Northern Clubs have to spend in order to secure that player, raises the order position of a club's later picks.

 

[Syd]

Expanding on this point,

The revised bidding system meant the Swans couldn't afford to match the Doggies' offer - we might have tried, but it likely would have excluded us from the live draft(s).

Essentially there is no "free shot" at players anymore. Those whinging about Heeney are complsining about a system that no longer exists.

And potentially put us into deficit for the following year IIRC

 

[Colonial]

Who's rules? The corrupt AFL's rules? It's not in my rules of a fair competition.

Your rules? hahaha

So is it fair that the majority of the kids come from the traditional states and use the go home factor?

Is it fair that, Say my club the Giants, only plays 1 game this year at the MCG where the GF is held. While others get every home game and more.

Please, hell Carlton have been getting Friday night games even though they have been poor for the last few years. Also not "fair".

Father son isn't fair either.

The travel for interstate clubs isn't fair. The fact Saints Dogs etc don't have a "big game" to promote.

Please, there is a ton of unfairness in the comp.

The northern academies actually bring balance to the table.

 

[Doggy Dan]

Yes well we get sick of drafting players who play the homesick card to go home. This way they already are home

Blacktown is home for kids from Leeton?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

So is it fair that the majority of the kids come from the traditional states and use the go home factor?

Is it fair that, Say my club the Giants, only plays 1 game this year at the MCG where the GF is held. While others get every home game and more.

Please, hell Carlton have been getting Friday night games even though they have been poor for the last few years. Also not "fair".

Father son isn't fair either.

The travel for interstate clubs isn't fair. The fact Saints Dogs etc don't have a "big game" to promote.

Please, there is a ton of unfairness in the comp.

The northern academies actually bring balance to the table.

You've listed a couple of minor inconveniences and a couple of things that are overblown or untrue, and your response to that is, yeah Sydney should get a top 5 draft pick TWO YEARS IN A ROW whilst finishing in the top 6. Yeah that sounds fair to me.

And don't get me started on the F/S vs Academy comparisons, There are 1-3 F/S every year and can rank between first round all the way down to rookie, the only highly rated Father Sons in recent times are Moore, Daniher and L. McDonald, compare that to the 3-4 players PER TEAM the Academies churn out, with extremely highly rated kids EVERY YEAR, such as Heeney, Mills, Hopper, Kennedy, the brisbane ones etc etc just coming from the last two years.

 

[Colonial]

Blacktown is home for kids from Leeton?

Home state.

 

[Colonial]

You've listed a couple of minor inconveniences and a couple of things that are overblown or untrue, and your response to that is, yeah Sydney should get a top 5 draft pick TWO YEARS IN A ROW whilst finishing in the top 6. Yeah that sounds fair to me.

And don't get me started on the F/S vs Academy comparisons, There are 1-3 F/S every year and can rank between first round all the way down to rookie, the only highly rated Father Sons in recent times are Moore, Daniher and L. McDonald, compare that to the 3-4 players PER TEAM the Academies churn out, with extremely highly rated kids EVERY YEAR, such as Heeney, Mills, Hopper, Kennedy, the brisbane ones etc etc just coming from the last two years.

ahhh so the benefits that are good for yourself are minor and insignificant.
The ones that don't are evil and a black smear on all that is good.

Riiiiight. hahaha

 

[FlowersByIrene]

ahhh so the benefits that are good for yourself are minor and insignificant.
The ones that don't are evil and a black smear on all that is good.

Riiiiight. hahaha

Comparing "travelling a bit more" to here you go have Isaac Heeney and Callum Mills is laughable

West Coast should have an academy of travelling is so hard then?