Mega Thread Don's Party - The future is so bright, we need some pizza and a piss-up

[skoobydoo]

I think the problem with Campo is one of complacency. He's already admitted he's not interested in the top coaching job as it would interfere with outside business interests. That suggests that there's little incentive for him to improve existing systems or try out new ideas. In contrast look at all the assistants under Clarkson who have gone on to becomes head coaches: Bolton (Carlton), Simpson (West Coast), Hardwick (Richmond), Beveridge (WB) and Cameron (GWS) - none of these guys were content to simply remain as assistants. Perhaps much like our midfield, Campo is seen internally as being good enough, but he doesn't desire to be "great," so it's an easy option to keep him in the role as we know he doesn't want to go anywhere.

Fresh new ideas is good.

 

[skoobydoo]

No, he is not a low level plodder. He's a good solid footballer. If Mackay or Douglas were out of contract we would have lowballed them too and traded them for picks in the 40s. Lyons position is easily replaced , he's too good not to be playing football but we have other players on the list that we are backing to go past him.

Getting 43 is disappointing, I was hoping for more. But pick 26 was Ikea, start the car stuff. We got 21 for Vince who is a superior player. The problem is a lot of people are over-rating Lyons' value and what we would have realistically got for him. He's a great bloke and loyal, but the club made a hard decision. Just like all the ranters ask the club to do, just that they disagree with this hard decision.

Douglas and Mackay are contracted and we can't force them to move. We need to phase them out. Dougie I'd back in to have a better season. Mackay is always going to be inconsistent. I'd like to see Mackay fighting for his spot and only used when replacing injured players.

Think we would all like to see Mackay 'fighting for his spot'....and this needs a 'hard decision' at repeated selection meetings.

 

[Ozzie]

I think the problem with Campo is one of complacency. He's already admitted he's not interested in the top coaching job as it would interfere with outside business interests. That suggests that there's little incentive for him to improve existing systems or try out new ideas. In contrast look at all the assistants under Clarkson who have gone on to becomes head coaches: Bolton (Carlton), Simpson (West Coast), Hardwick (Richmond), Beveridge (WB) and Cameron (GWS) - none of these guys were content to simply remain as assistants. Perhaps much like our midfield, Campo is seen internally as being good enough, but he doesn't desire to be "great," so it's an easy option to keep him in the role as we know he doesn't want to go anywhere.

This is so true and in my mind, this is why ROK is content to go bike riding because anything new he offers is squashed by Campo and Clarke. Those 2 must be replaced ASAP.

 

[Mattrox]

Think we would all like to see Mackay 'fighting for his spot'....and this needs a 'hard decision' at repeated selection meetings.

Given what we have heard, that we need to play CEY, Menzel, Hampton, Knight, Wigg during the year, I expect that Mackay will need to fight for his spot. And will need to play his best footy consistently to get a game. Thommo has been touted as a playing type development coach and if we take Roo at his word he'll be playing SANFL most of the year.

If Mackay keeps his spot with out absolutely earning it and Thommo keeps Hampton or CEY out of the rotation I'll become a ranter too.

 

[Sanders]

So when do you start on Fagan?

Trigg just managed to keep a star player who wanted to return home, fagan failed miserably last year. He accepted pittance for the best player in the league. Just let him walk. trigg put up a fight for gibbs and won.

Trigg












daylight





































fagan on a good day

That's just a mediocre troll

 

[Mego Red]

So - the assistant coaches ran Lyons out of the club?

The assistant coaches that he didn't want to leave?

Lyons was desperate to stay at the club. We had to thin out the list.

We got a shit deal for him, but some of the trades were stunning. This seems like a year were it was damn hard to get a list spot (look at all the free agents without a club) and players were traded for massive unders.

Reid gets one more year to prove himself, then he's dead to me.

The coaching staff - I'd happily get rid of Campo and Clarke because we should be getting in new IP. But to suggest they had anything to do with the shit trade for Lyons - a guy who was desperate to stay - is moronic.

And Pyke? This guy was a strategy coach with Craig when he changed the game, and with Simpson when they invented the Weagles Web. And last year, he took a midlist team to 17 wins and a massive result from the forwards.

No, this is a shit thread. Just another chance to attach the same usual suspects, instead of doing any rational analysis.

 

[Bicks]

This is so true and in my mind, this is why ROK is content to go bike riding because anything new he offers is squashed by Campo and Clarke. Those 2 must be replaced ASAP.

Or just maybe ROK has little to offer...

 

[God IsThatYou]

Or just maybe ROK has little to offer...

Maybe mediocre is an infectious disease? Must go back to check........

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Has more footy nous in his little finger than Mackay does in his whole body

Lyons isn't an A Grader but is twice the player some of the regulars we've continually picked in front of him are.

 

[King Elvis]

So - the assistant coaches ran Lyons out of the club?

The assistant coaches that he didn't want to leave?

Lyons was desperate to stay at the club. We had to thin out the list.

We got a shit deal for him, but some of the trades were stunning. This seems like a year were it was damn hard to get a list spot (look at all the free agents without a club) and players were traded for massive unders.

Reid gets one more year to prove himself, then he's dead to me.

The coaching staff - I'd happily get rid of Campo and Clarke because we should be getting in new IP. But to suggest they had anything to do with the shit trade for Lyons - a guy who was desperate to stay - is moronic.

And Pyke? This guy was a strategy coach with Craig when he changed the game, and with Simpson when they invented the Weagles Web. And last year, he took a midlist team to 17 wins and a massive result from the forwards.

No, this is a shit thread. Just another chance to attach the same usual suspects, instead of doing any rational analysis.

Lyons chose to go; but we obviously made it clear we didn't want him.

 

[Ozzie]

Or just maybe ROK has little to offer...

Well this coming season will tell the story.

 

[Interloperer]

The disappointing thing with Lyons is that there were 2 or 3 similar players to him coming into the season, Much promise, little delivered thus far.

Lyons was the only one to stand up and show that he is an AFL standard player, (I did not rate him, but he proved me wrong,) and yet the others who did not do this are the ones still on the list.

 

[mistylake]

So when do you start on Fagan?

Trigg just managed to keep a star player who wanted to return home, fagan failed miserably last year. He accepted pittance for the best player in the league. Just let him walk. trigg put up a fight for gibbs and won.

Trigg












daylight





































fagan on a good day

Think you might be on your own with this one.
























Grazy.

 

[relapse]

So when do you start on Fagan?

Trigg just managed to keep a star player who wanted to return home, fagan failed miserably last year. He accepted pittance for the best player in the league. Just let him walk. trigg put up a fight for gibbs and won.

Trigg












daylight





































fagan on a good day

Is this is the same Trigg that oversaw the club from an AFL financial powerhouse to a loss making financial minnow in the space of a decade ?

The same Trigg that invested/wasted 20 million on a sports/entertainment complex that was supposed to become a huge revenue raiser for the club ?

The same Trigg that continually bent over to the SANFL ?

The same Trigg that saw Neil Craig coaching for as far as the eye could see ?

The same Trigg that oversaw and hid a dodgy deal that eventually led to us losing draft picks ?

Let's not try and kid ourselves here

 

[hey shorty]

The under rating of JL is staggering.

Our midfield is shit because we're playing at least one, if not two, midfielders short.

We also have the same structural and system problems that have been obvious to everyone for years.

And we then have 3 senior players who are ******* useless, and contribute almost nothing. If those guys regularly performed at the level JL did, our midfield wouldn't be as pathetic.

That's why our midfield is shit; we're ~5 regular contributors short.

You are and always have rated JL highly, but this is a step too far IMO. Those same coaches have coached and developed a 3rd round draftee into a premier mid and Brownlow contender, a pick 23 into one of the best young guns of the comp and also developed JL to a point where he was a good, solid contributor every week.

They do have their failings of course, structurally speaking especially. Development isn't one of them though. So with that, I really don't see us being a lesser side because JL isn't there. If Knight, Menzel and/or Hampton were fit r1 this year he wouldn't have been there either.

We didn't get quite the return pick wise for him, about 10 places higher would've been the right result IMO. You say Reid doesn't deserve as much criticism as these guys, I say they're all equally at fault.

 

[jackster83]

I think the problem with Campo is one of complacency. He's already admitted he's not interested in the top coaching job as it would interfere with outside business interests. That suggests that there's little incentive for him to improve existing systems or try out new ideas. In contrast look at all the assistants under Clarkson who have gone on to becomes head coaches: Bolton (Carlton), Simpson (West Coast), Hardwick (Richmond), Beveridge (WB) and Cameron (GWS) - none of these guys were content to simply remain as assistants. Perhaps much like our midfield, Campo is seen internally as being good enough, but he doesn't desire to be "great," so it's an easy option to keep him in the role as we know he doesn't want to go anywhere.

That is the problem with the AFC in general. We saw it after the West Coast game, when we started peddling the "16 wins" line as an excuse to not make any changes. It was like Sando was still coaching.

 

[Mismatched]

I'm identifying the blame regarding Lyons, that it effectively defends Reid is a by-product of addressing the actual issue. It's not about Reid and it's not about overrating Lyons as some lemmings have already commented on. The reason Lyons went for unders is because he has always, and continued to be, undervalued by the midfield coaches. Reid was only tasked with selling an asset to a club with an early PSD pick in a day and a half.

But it is time that we hounded Campo and Clarke in the same manner we did Trigg. The Lyons affair and re-signing Thommo are just recent examples of these idiots decision making skills.

I was watching Moneyball the other day(recently released on Netflix) and there was interesting move that for mine that made me think there may be more to the Lyons trade than meets the eye. In the movie there was a player the List manager wanted at 1st base, but the coach kept playing the other guy, in the end List management traded "the other guy" so the coach didn't have a choice. Now I'd really hope our list management and team selection would be a little more on the same page as this.

Now it was clear early on that we were trying to push Lyons out, low ball offer and all, we all thought this would be to get a pick in the 20's and because we were targeting an A-Grader. Given the A-Grader didn't come and apparently wasn't really on the radar and that we traded Lyons for squat, I just wander if this is List Management opening up opportunities for a CEY or perhaps even a Greenwood.

I almost wander at times if there's players that coaches don't want to perform well, because they don't fit team structure, or are slow/small/poorly skilled, but that they play so well that it's impossible to not select them because you want to be seen to be rewarding form/attitude/endeavour.

Either way, I don't think that there was anything accidental about trading Lyons and I think we've gone into this trade very much with "eyes wide open".

 

[Mismatched]

So when do you start on Fagan?

Trigg just managed to keep a star player who wanted to return home, fagan failed miserably last year. He accepted pittance for the best player in the league. Just let him walk. trigg put up a fight for gibbs and won.

Trigg

daylight


fagan on a good day

Is this just like how Trigg decided we should keep Tippett at the end of 2011 instead of trade him to Brisbane, instead leaving us vulnerable to his dodgy contract and losing him for sfa in the PSD? This despite knowing that Tippett hated living in Adelaide and was more than likely going home.

Now whilst there's some obvious differences, that was clearly a lose lose for both parties to not have come to an agreement at the time and I think it's similar with Carlton and Adelaide with Gibbs. Both clubs had plenty to gain from getting a deal done, this was a potential win-win for both clubs, but neither could get close to each other's asking price. Carlton are acting like it was a win to keep a guy who doesn't want to be there and is contracted for 3 years, that's not a win, that's just lucky you got him to sign a 3 year contract. A win would have been convincing him to change his mind about leaving. But by the same token, had we'd given up the 2 1st rounders, got Gibbs and won a premiership, would anyone have given 2 hoots that we payed massive overs?

Just like giving up Tippett for perhaps a 1st rounder only in 2011 might have seemed like unders, but now it would seem like pants down, laps around the table kind of stuff.

Not sorting the Gibbs deal out was a lose for both parties, I get the feeling we see that, Carlton, well I'm not sure Silvagni saw that at all. Although for him I suspect it was more a display of dominance/ego than sound list management and perhaps he feels it will deter players from leaving in the future. Personally I think it might just deter them from signing 5 year deals and make them think twice about re-signing them in the first place, especially if they have doubts about their future.

 

[hippyhippy]

Except for the team that did give him a contract. Lyons was one of 8 players in the league ranked elite by CD for goals and assists out of the midfield. He's not a superstar, he's not the low level plodder some are making him out to be either.

Didnt mckay have a good year when we signed him for 4? Maybe we've learnt from that signing.... or maybe not.

 

[Rotayjay]

I almost wander at times if there's players that coaches don't want to perform well, because they don't fit team structure, or are slow/small/poorly skilled, but that they play so well that it's impossible to not select them because you want to be seen to be rewarding form/attitude/endeavour

The problem is that selection based on form so often goes out the window at this club

 

[Elite Crow]

I expect our midfield will have a different look next year.

Lyons missing.
Mackay won't play many games.
Thommo won't play most games.
Douglas I expect will play most games, assuming he gets back some form. Perhaps rotate thommo & Douglas to keep an experienced player around.

CEY needs to play when we are against bigger body midfielders.
Knight assuming fit will be 1st 22.
Milera should have a stronger body to play most games.
Wigg is ready to have some impact after serving his apprenticeship.

Must consider moving Smith into the midfield rotations as we have Hampton & seedsman who can cover him on a hbf.
Similarly, laird should become part of a larger midfield rotation as we build flexibility in the team.

Cameron, mcgovern & menzel should all be forwards who rotate through the midfield.

When Roo was defending our shit trade period he rattled off all the players we brought in and the guys we have in the SANFL who "need to be playing next year". Might not have been his exact words but something similar.

Now that's all great and all but if our selection committee doesn't change its approach then we have no chance and "organic growth" won't happen.

We complain about our mids being one dimensional and all the same, ok then Lyons has gone and so must Thommo. Sloane and the Crouch boys are the foundation and we must support them with a midfield mix that includes the players you mentioned.

As for Douglas, **** his experience, fat lot of good that did this year. If he isn't good enough to be a starting mid then he doesn't play. None of this non-statistical forward bullshit. His spot on the half forward should be taken by Menzel to play the role you mentioned. We didn't pay a high price to recruit him and give him a long term deal to play SANFL.

 

[1970crow]

So when do you start on Fagan?

Trigg just managed to keep a star player who wanted to return home, fagan failed miserably last year. He accepted pittance for the best player in the league. Just let him walk. trigg put up a fight for gibbs and won.

Trigg












daylight





































fagan on a good day

Firstly, he was contracted and they've taken a huge risk in not accepting a fair price for him. You can be reasonably certain that they expected us to buckle and cough up the 2 first rounders, they misjudged our resolve substantially. That is on them, not us. As for Fagan, I'll be holding fire until next year. It would have been this year, but the murder of Walsh has put back the process by 12 months to my mind. Fagan inherited Trigg's mess and you can't just walk in and sweep a broom through everyone, sadly, for a well supported club, we aren't a financial powerhouse, so paying out contracts everywhere and then paying the tax on the resultant overspend isn't necessarily an option. However, I will be judging Fagan on his ability to clean out the influential and long serving employees of the football department. Noble has moved on this year, Campo is contracted for another year and not sure about Clarke. I was disappointed that Campo got that extension, but the circumstances surrounding that have never been experienced before, so I find it difficult to really critique any decisions made during that time. I'd prefer it hadn't been made though. If either of those 2 get renewed and we roll into next year with the same selection policies as this year, then I'll be accepting that he's a dud and out of his depth in this sport. But I won't be looking at Fagan in isolation if that turns out to be the case.

 

[1970crow]

I'd be interested to know how our midfield would perform if we didn't have to drag along Mackay, Douglas and Thommo like three useless anchors holding us back.

On Thommo, he's missed 4 games in 2 years;

Rnd 1, 2015 v Roos at home who finished 4th - win by 77
Rnd 2, 2015 v Pies away who finished 12th - win by 27
Rnd 11, 2016 v Saints at home who finished 9th - win by 88
Rnd 20, 2016 v Lions at home who finished 17th - win by 138

So against teams that have finished on average in 10th, without Thommo the last 2 years we haven't lost a game and have an average winning margin of 82 points. Obviously, not a huge sample of data, but it's hard to argue that we haven't been able to get the job done without his presence or in-game coaching mastery.

 

[1970crow]

I think the problem with Campo is one of complacency. He's already admitted he's not interested in the top coaching job as it would interfere with outside business interests. That suggests that there's little incentive for him to improve existing systems or try out new ideas. In contrast look at all the assistants under Clarkson who have gone on to becomes head coaches: Bolton (Carlton), Simpson (West Coast), Hardwick (Richmond), Beveridge (WB) and Cameron (GWS) - none of these guys were content to simply remain as assistants. Perhaps much like our midfield, Campo is seen internally as being good enough, but he doesn't desire to be "great," so it's an easy option to keep him in the role as we know he doesn't want to go anywhere.

Which makes it hard to recruit the next gun midfield coach in waiting. You'd see a very comfortable employee in Campo's role as midfield coach and senior assistant and realise that your ceiling is set lower at our club than anywhere else. We've proven that we retain people for very long periods and he's not going to choose to go somewhere else, so anyone with significant desire to move up the ranks and be a head coach wouldn't see that progression opportunity at our club. Anyone we get that's high quality with senior coaching desire and potential will be gone within a year or 2.

 

[1970crow]

i was a making a point towards the op and their melt. Thier silence would suggest they got it.

think again mate. there's not actually much that you get right buddy. i do have other things i sometimes do.