Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[kirsti]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...a/news-story/a67db1032bdf7aace62cc6df75266ca7

CANBERRA ruck Hannah Mouncey will attempt to become the first transgender footballer in the AFLW’s second season when she nominates for the October 18 draft.

Mouncey, 27, represented Australia in the men’s handball side that attempted to qualify for the Rio Olympics before transitioning into a female. She has already trialled for AFLW clubs including Melbourne and has interest from several Victorian sides given her powerful 100kg, 190cm physique.

Mouncey kicked 15 goals in the last three home-and-away games after moving from the midfield into the ruck for Ainslie in AFLW Canberra. She has permission from the AFL to play given her testosterone levels are lower than most females and an agent in Tim Hazell pushing her draft prospects.[/QUOte

Thankyou

 

[Deep]

Probably the crows full forward

Looks like Jenkins, plays like Jenkins

 

[King Brown]

Probably the crows full forward

She's about 15cm shorter.

Mouncey is definitely in an entirely separate class of physique. While there are some natural women built like she is, they are very rare. There are a lot more men built the way she is, but even then she's taller and heavier than the average men's footballer.

 

[bac]

Pre op?

Should be read in conjunction with this comment:

Quinz said: ↑
Obviously nothing is cut and dried in this area, but would a sliding scale based on the time of transition be a better solution? The later the transition the longer the wait for eligibility.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

This makes me laugh for some reason. Should be a great spectacle, good luck to her!

 

[MightyTiger]

Is the biggest AFL player always the best player. Size is one element to a players game Daisy won best on ground in the first AFLW State Of Origin, Daisy clearly isn't one of the biggest players.

Caleb Daniels and Buddy Franklin have a huge difference in size do we ban a player because he is bigger or stronger then his competitor.

A trans woman who trains alongside a genetically born woman of the same approximate build and age will achieve far less strength and endurance gains then the genetically born woman. A post operative trans woman does not produce any naturaly occurring testosterone where as a genetically born woman does in addition a genetically born woman's estrogen in parts can convert to testosterone. A trans woman like myself 11 years post operative is at a distinct disadvantage physically to a genetically born female of a similar build and age who shares the same training regime as myself.

Testosterone since the 1970's has been the most used and successful performance enhancing drug known to mankind. A trans athelte like myself is a polar opposite to athletes like Ben Johnson the Canadian Drug Cheat.

I don't mean to be rude, but you understand the difference in environments correct? You play at an amateur local level, athletes wanting to step into the professional environment means they will be eating and training as professionals, using elite facilities with elite training programs, so for a trans female stepping into that environment once they start that process of elite training natural progression due to the physiology of the male body will see them gain far more muscle mass at a far rapid rate then any female would be able to do.

 

[Scotland]

The 'Big Boy McEvoy is physically stronger than Wee Man McGlynn' type arguments are stupid.

Liz Cambage is 6'8''. She still wouldn't get a game in the NBA. Pick any average sized male tennis player ranked in the 150s and he'd still wipe the floor with Serena Williams, Maria Sharaponva - whoever. Men's and women's competitions are separated for a reason.

Allowing male athletes to transition to female is a concerning precedent.

 

[kirsti]

She's about 15cm shorter.

Mouncey is definitely in an entirely separate class of physique. While there are some natural women built like she is, they are very rare. There are a lot more men built the way she is, but even then she's taller and heavier than the average men's footballer.

I absolutely agree Hannah is a big person for a male or female. I transitioned in my mid thirties and being a former international Modern Pentathlon and Aquathon Competitor Rugby League Front Row Forward although not as tall as Hannah I was a very strong male.

I have grave concerns with the current IOC and AFL's policies I feel the balance of fairness has been tipped in the favour of the transgender athlete or player with the current policies and guidelines.

I do not agree with testosterone levels being the only guideline to follow and a blanket 12 months is totally inadequate to ensure the entegrity of women's sport is maintained.

Trans athletes that transitioned after puberty do take longer then a younger trans person to gain feminisation results. I suggest muscle mass loss and things like lung capacity should also be taken into consideration. A pre op trans person can have sudden spikes in their testosterone levels I suggest very stringent testing on testosterone levels should be implemented for trans athletes that have not undergone permanent gender surgery should take place.

 

[kirsti]

The 'Big Boy McEvoy is physically stronger than Wee Man McGlynn' type arguments are stupid.

Liz Cambage is 6'8''. She still wouldn't get a game in the NBA. Pick any average sized male tennis player ranked in the 150s and he'd still wipe the floor with Serena Williams, Maria Sharaponva - whoever. Men's and women's competitions are separated for a reason.

Allowing male athletes to transition to female is a concerning precedent.

But would that same male player beat them after he had his testosterone production completely stopped for 2, 3, or 5 years this same male player if also he was administered female hormones, grow breasts, gained lots of body fat and lost massive muscle loss would he still win I suggest the result could go either way.

 

[Scotland]

But would that same male player beat them after he had his testosterone production completely stopped for 2, 3, or 5 years this same male player if also he was administered female hormones, grow breasts, gained lots of body fat and lost massive muscle loss would he still win I suggest the result could go either way.

Where did 2, 3 or 5 years come from?

 

[Milanista28]

She's frkn massive, Can't wait to see her destroy someone lol.

If some wife/gf/sister got destroyed by a trans who was clearly still benefiting from being born a man then I think people would be pretty angry.

Can't wait tbh.

 

[King Brown]

This makes me laugh for some reason. Should be a great spectacle, good luck to her!

Hopefully she dominates, proving that the best women are former men, finally putting those pesky ladies back in their place.

 

[kirsti]

Actually the

I don't mean to be rude, but you understand the difference in environments correct? You play at an amateur local level, athletes wanting to step into the professional environment means they will be eating and training as professionals, using elite facilities with elite training programs, so for a trans female stepping into that environment once they start that process of elite training natural progression due to the physiology of the male body will see them gain far more muscle mass at a far rapid rate then any female would be able to do.

Actually the opposite would occur the genetically born female player would achieve far more muscle strength and stamina gain because they produce naturally occurring testosterone where as the trans athlete does not.

No one can argue testosterone can improve performance reducing testosterone has massive effects. I personally lost the majority of my strength after approximately two years. Once post operative my endurance and strength diminished even further.

 

[kirsti]

She's frkn massive, Can't wait to see her destroy someone lol.

If some wife/gf/sister got destroyed by a trans who was clearly still benefiting from being born a man then I think people would be pretty angry.

Can't wait tbh.

Your fears are why it is so important that the IOC and other sports get the transgender policies as close to being fair for all sports persons trans or cisgender. That defiantly hasn't happened with the current policies.

I totally understand people's fears with trans athletes having an advantage hopefully this thread will come up with some positive ideas.

 

[HighBudget]

Notice how it's always a man who transformed into a women going into a woman's sports competition? It's never the opposite, I wonder why?

Edit: I stand corrected, just reading the thread and there's a comment saying how there's a trans man playing in a guys football comp. but still most of the time it's usually a trans woman joining a woman's comps

 

[Barry Roundhouse]

But would that same male player beat them after he had his testosterone production completely stopped for 2, 3, or 5 years this same male player if also he was administered female hormones, grow breasts, gained lots of body fat and lost massive muscle loss would he still win I suggest the result could go either way.

Id confidently argue LeBron james, Russell Westbrook or James Jarden waltz into the WNBA after 4 years of hrt and win the MVP convincingly.

Basketball IQ and the elite sporting environments they grew up would play a significant role though.

How much their natural physical gifts carry over is clearly at the heart of this debate. From your opinion that the 12 months is too short, to me it seems the science is still inconclusive.

Hannah may be the best case study we have so far. Will definitely be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[MightyTiger]

Actually the

Actually the opposite would occur the genetically born female player would achieve far more muscle strength and stamina gain because they produce naturally occurring testosterone where as the trans athlete does not.

No one can argue testosterone can improve performance reducing testosterone has massive effects. I personally lost the majority of my strength after approximately two years. Once post operative my endurance and strength diminished even further.

It's a bit disengenius to just say you lost all of your muscle mass and thats it, you haven't told anybody about your training program, whether you trained 4-5 times a week in the gym, or purely just cardio or if it were simply just a case of sitting at home and doing nothing. And the question can still be asked up until today, how much of your training program consists of actual weights program, what type of training do you do etc, yes your body now is better slight, but if you were to engage in a proper training and eating regime how much muscle would you gain and would it be proportionate to that of a female athlete?

 

[Milanista28]

Your fears are why it is so important that the IOC and other sports get the transgender policies as close to being fair for all sports persons trans or cisgender. That defiantly hasn't happened with the current policies.

I totally understand people's fears with trans athletes having an advantage hopefully this thread will come up with some positive ideas.

Whatever happens we are all going to learn a lot from this experience.

 

[kirsti]

Where did 2, 3 or 5 years come from?

Currently 12 months of appropriate testosterone levels are all that are required for a trans athlete to compete as a female. I suggest it should be longer particularly trans people that transition after puberty.

A f to m trans person will have lost significantly more strength and endurance after 2, 3 or 5 years of hormone reduction then they did at 12 months.

 

[Scotland]

This Mouncey character competed in Rio 2016 as a man. That wasn't that long ago.

 

[JB1975]

The whole search to expand the number of "genders" is a far left marxist attack on the male. fair enough. politics is politics and if they can get a constituency for these tactics then fair dinkum.

Goodness gracious. Far left Marxists you say? Couldn't get their dictatorship of the proletariat up via a revolution, so they've decided to attack capital with a bit of gender fluidity? Creative bastards!

 

[yoodooright]

No, his name is used because he's the progenitor of left-wing though and is most people's introduction to left-wing philosophy.

But he wasn't an economist. Saying he was an economist is like saying creationists are scientists.

No, its not. Do not confuse Economics with Capitalism. They are not the same thing.

 

[The Gong]

Goodness gracious. Far left Marxists you say? Couldn't get their dictatorship of the proletariat up via a revolution, so they've decided to attack capital with a bit of gender fluidity? Creative bastards!

Gender fluidity is the opiate of the masses

 

[kirsti]

It's a bit disengenius to just say you lost all of your muscle mass and thats it, you haven't told anybody about your training program, whether you trained 4-5 times a week in the gym, or purely just cardio or if it were simply just a case of sitting at home and doing nothing. And the question can still be asked up until today, how much of your training program consists of actual weights program, what type of training do you do etc, yes your body now is better slight, but if you were to engage in a proper training and eating regime how much muscle would you gain and would it be proportionate to that of a female athlete?

I strongly disagree that I have been disenguis in any way. I have put myself out there and shared my personal experiences but I am not the be all and end all in transgender issues. I will continue to answe questions as openly and honestly as I can. May I suggest you look over my Big Footy AMA I went into massive details of how transitioning affected my body and sporting performance.

I have been an athlete my whole life and I have always maintained a very active training regime. I am currently 52 years of age and I play soccer and Aussie Rules Football. I am one of about a dozen over 50 year old players in my competition.

I was a very strong person as a male having played first grade rugby league as a front row forward. When I started hormone treatment in the early 2000,s I noticed massive changes in my body very quickly.

I don't want anyone just to take my word on things by all means google away and look at published findings as well. I am just one person contributing to a very contentious issue.

 

[kirsti]

This Mouncey character competed in Rio 2016 as a man. That wasn't that long ago.

No she didn't the Australian Handball Team didn't compete in Rio. Hannah started hormone treatment in November 2015.