Expansion Fixturing / Finals With 18 Teams

[w00dy]

The AFLPA proposed to the AFL a 17 round season when the Gold Coast and West Sydney teams are established.

Here is how I think the AFL should structure its season when there are 18 sides in the competition.

17 round season where every side plays everyone once. Every team gets 8 or 9 home games, with home games rotated between clubs on a season by season basis.

At the end of round 17 the post season starts with the top 8 sides playing each other.

Each team plays every other remaining side once, with the fixture reversed from where they played the first time during the season. For example if Hawthorn play Sydney in Sydney, the return fixture would be played in Melbourne.

Premiership points from the first half of the season are carried over into this series, with the ladder continuing based on the results.

Once the top 8 sides have all played each other, the top 4 sides play off in preliminary finals, with the winners to play off in the grand final. (This could be changed to the top 2 sides go straight into the grand final, I'm not too bothered. But I think prelim finals are great and it would be a shame to get rid of them. It also prevents the grand finalists being decided a number of weeks out from the game.)

In total there are 26 weeks of football, the same that are played at the moment. (17 in regular season, 7 in post season, 2 weeks of finals).

Advantages of this system include:

Reducing long drawn out seasons for sides languishing at the bottom of the ladder.

Fair and equitable draw with everyone playing every side once before the post season starts, and then all the teams vying for a finals spot play each other twice, both home and away.

The 7 week post season plus finals results in more high quality football being played. This would result in greater gate revenues and higher television broadcast rights revenue, and a greater spectacle of the game.

Allows bottom 10 sides the chance for an extended pre-season, allowing them to have a better shot at bouncing back the following season, and would stop players missing football when they're going in for early operations. (ie. reduce tanking)

Increased revenues for clubs participating in the post season. They could sell post season memberships, which would be extremely popular as everyone jumps on board when their club is doing well. There would be some rule that regular season members get preference over finals tickets ahead of post season members only.

Disadvantages:

Bottom 10 sides miss out on 2-3 games of revenue. This should be subsidised by the AFL, they make that much money off the clubs through TV rights, they should help the clubs out more.

Less games for television, however this would mean foxtel just miss out on the post season. I'm sure the free to air channels would be happy to make up the difference when they're going to get 9 weeks of post season football.



thoughts everyone? i think it's a very different system, but it would be a great one... would lift the standard of our game to another level...

 

[Paddy_Mac]

I got lost sorry. But there was a point that you brang up, if there is 17 rounds than that means a team will play more/less home games than they will away.

 

[RUNVS]

I doubt the AFL will lower the number of Rounds. The more Rounds they drop means the less money they recieve frm the tv rights deal.

 

[w00dy]

I got lost sorry.

I'll make it clearer.

Everyone plays everyone once. That gets you to round 17, at which time the season ends for the bottom 10 sides, leaving the top 8 remaining.

Those top 8 teams then proceed to play each other a 2nd time, with premiership points simply added to those accumulated in the first half of the season.

Once the top 8 sides have played each other again, the top 4 play prelim finals, winners go through to the grand final.

But there was a point that you brang up, if there is 17 rounds than that means a team will play more/less home games than they will away.

As for the amount of home/away games, even though some teams may only get 8 home games, all clubs will effectively play at least 9 games at home, that is 9 games without travelling. Just because Melbourne plays Hawthorn "away" at the MCG doesn't disadvantage it at all. With teams on the Gold Coast and Western Sydney, Brisbane and Sydney will play away games at Homebush (or wherever western sydney play) and Carrara (an hour down the road). This isn't a big issue i don't think. Teams that got 8 "home" games one year, would get 9 the following year.

I doubt the AFL will lower the number of Rounds. The more Rounds they drop means the less money they recieve frm the tv rights deal.

you obviously didn't read all of what I wrote did you? this system would increase the television rights revenue if anything... how much better are the ratings going to be when there are top 8 sides coming up against each other 4 games every week?

In total there are 26 weeks of football, the same that are played at the moment. (17 in regular season, 7 in post season, 2 weeks of finals).

Advantages of this system include:

The 7 week post season plus finals results in more high quality football being played. This would result in greater gate revenues and higher television broadcast rights revenue, and a greater spectacle of the game.

Disadvantages:

Less games for television, however this would mean foxtel just miss out on the post season. I'm sure the free to air channels would be happy to make up the difference when they're going to get 9 weeks of post season football.

 

[walhawk]

No thanks Woody.

There will never be less than 22 round. There may even be 24. No need to change the finals. 8 out of 18 is perfect.

 

[retroparty]

I think they will reduce the preseason games to 2 weeks. Then extend the H&A season by 2 games. Keep the same finals system with the 8 teams so the teams who make it have to work harder to make it to September.

If the GC team are going to come in 1 year earlier, how are the AFL going to deal with playing 17 teams? Some teams would have more byes than the others. It wouldn't be fair.

 

[w00dy]

i'd just like to see the AFL think outside the square a little...

the post season matches involving the top 8 sides would become epic football... so many great matches... would lift our game to another level...

 

[Marklar_33]

I think they will reduce the preseason games to 2 weeks. Then extend the H&A season by 2 games. Keep the same finals system with the 8 teams so the teams who make it have to work harder to make it to September.

If the GC team are going to come in 1 year earlier, how are the AFL going to deal with playing 17 teams? Some teams would have more byes than the others. It wouldn't be fair.

It amazes me how some people manage to find a way out of bed every day

 

[Bone71]

I think an extra 5 weeks less football for the majority of clubs would be a massive problem. Currently those that don't make the 8 have 4 weeks off, under your system it would be 9 weeks, a lot of clubs struggle to get decent sponsorship as it is so how do you think they are going to go with even less exposure to sell.

Then you've got less home games so supporters will expect their memberships to cost less therefore less revenue from a second source.

The AFL will spread all incomes from tv evenly so reducing games is going to hurt the clubs that can least afford it.

Having said that, I like the idea but it won't happen for the above reasons

 

[Sydneyfan]

Have three conferences of six teams each though keep the one ladder. Northern Conference has Gold Coast, Brisbane, Sydney, Western Sydney, Kangaroos and St. Kilda.
Victorian Conference has Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Melbourne, Richmond and Hawthorn.
Western Conference has West Coast, Fremantle, Port, Adelaide, Western Bulldogs and Geelong.

You play each team in your conference once (home and away) and teams outside your conference (home one year, away the next).

The total games run to 22, the same as present and keep the finals as is.

Let's look at a sample draw and use Sydney as an example: Gold Coast (home), Western Sydney (Rivalry Round - away), Brisbane (home), Kangaroos (away), St. Kilda (home), Essendon (away), Carlton (home), Collingwood (away), Melbourne (home), Richmond (away), Hawthorn (home), West Coast (away), Fremantle (home), Port (away), Adelaide (home), Western Bulldogs (away), Geelong (home), Gold Coast (away), Brisbane (home), Kangaroos (away), Western Sydney (Rivalry Round 2 - home).

 

[McCrann]

Have three conferences of six teams each though keep the one ladder. Northern Conference has Gold Coast, Brisbane, Sydney, Western Sydney, Kangaroos and St. Kilda.
Victorian Conference has Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Melbourne, Richmond and Hawthorn.
Western Conference has West Coast, Fremantle, Port, Adelaide, Western Bulldogs and Geelong.

You play each team in your conference once (home and away) and teams outside your conference (home one year, away the next).

The total games run to 22, the same as present and keep the finals as is.

Let's look at a sample draw and use Sydney as an example: Gold Coast (home), Western Sydney (Rivalry Round - away), Brisbane (home), Kangaroos (away), St. Kilda (home), Essendon (away), Carlton (home), Collingwood (away), Melbourne (home), Richmond (away), Hawthorn (home), West Coast (away), Fremantle (home), Port (away), Adelaide (home), Western Bulldogs (away), Geelong (home), Gold Coast (away), Brisbane (home), Kangaroos (away), Western Sydney (Rivalry Round 2 - home).

You want 2 Sydney v St. Kilda games in perpetuity? That sounds like slow torture for the League.........


Has to be 25 Rounds.

Split into 9 & 9.

Teams in your half Twice & Other 9 teams Once.

25 Rounds of 9 Matches = 225 Matches

225/176 = +28% Matches.

If current TV rights deal was replicated for this many matches, and matched inflation.

That would mean about $1.3b - $1.4b for the next 5 year TV Rights deal. (2012 - 2016).

Sounds like an absolute bonanza to me - about $270m per year for the AFL to share around.

Given that inflation has picked up to 4.2%, that number could conceivably be even higher.

 

[McCrann]

But - use the ONE (UNIFIED) LADDER!

 

[Thunderbird]

At the end of round 17 the post season starts with the top 8 sides playing each other.

Each team plays every other remaining side once, with the fixture reversed from where they played the first time during the season. For example if Hawthorn play Sydney in Sydney, the return fixture would be played in Melbourne.

This will not work.

Suppose we have a top 8 made up of 8 teams that played only 3 home games against each other during the first 17 rounds. It would then be impossible to create a fixture as you describe. Only with a 4-4 split would it be mathematically possible to create a fixture where every sides plays other sides once at home and once away. However, a 5-3 split is most likely.

The VFL tried this in the 1943 season. In that season Geelong could not take part due to wartime travel restrictions. There were 11 rounds with a bye. After 11 rounds the bottom side was eliminated (St Kilda) and a new fixture was drafted with the remaining 10 sides. Some sides ended up playing other sides at the same venue twice because it was not possible to schedule the fixture any other way.

 

[w00dy]

I think an extra 5 weeks less football for the majority of clubs would be a massive problem. Currently those that don't make the 8 have 4 weeks off, under your system it would be 9 weeks, a lot of clubs struggle to get decent sponsorship as it is so how do you think they are going to go with even less exposure to sell.

Then you've got less home games so supporters will expect their memberships to cost less therefore less revenue from a second source.

The AFL will spread all incomes from tv evenly so reducing games is going to hurt the clubs that can least afford it.

Having said that, I like the idea but it won't happen for the above reasons

It would make it harder for unsuccessful clubs to attract sponsorship, but make it easier for teams that make the finals to bring in much more income. Have to remember struggling on field doesn't equal struggling off the field.

To equalise it the AFL provides more money to sides not playing in the post season, or all post season gate receipts are collected by the AFL, and distributed evenly between all clubs.

What a lot of people don't realise is that in many other elite sporting competitions around the world, TV rights money goes directly to the club. So clubs would sell their home games to television networks. This wouldn't work for the AFL, but I think it indicates that the clubs should get a bigger cut of TV rights. They bear the costs of the game, what don't they get the benefit?

This will not work.

Suppose we have a top 8 made up of 8 teams that played only 3 home games against each other during the first 17 rounds. It would then be impossible to create a fixture as you describe. Only with a 4-4 split would it be mathematically possible to create a fixture where every sides plays other sides once at home and once away. However, a 5-3 split is most likely.

The VFL tried this in the 1943 season. In that season Geelong could not take part due to wartime travel restrictions. There were 11 rounds with a bye. After 11 rounds the bottom side was eliminated (St Kilda) and a new fixture was drafted with the remaining 10 sides. Some sides ended up playing other sides at the same venue twice because it was not possible to schedule the fixture any other way.

You could change the detail here, and this part of the system would be one of the challenges. Surely the fixturing challenges could be worked out, however it may not be fair that some sides play more home games or away games than others.

Perhaps the higher you finish on the ladder, you get to choose who your home games are against in the post season.

Another challenge would be if there were 5 interstate sides in the top 8, which is a likely possibility, we wouldn't have much football in Melbourne, I doubt the MCC would be too happy about that.

If these obstacles could be overcome the benefits could be massive for the game.

 

[AstroboyUK]

the post season idea is clever - well thought out - but I think too big a change for a competition as steeped in tradition as the VFL/AFL. Probably better than most ideas going around but the tough thing for the League in this kind of issue is how to maintain continuity with its history (I mean look how hard it was to consider interstate finals!)

I for one would want to keep the notion of H&A, then 4 weeks of Finals. To me thats 'how it should be'.. and it would irk me if it was any other way. For that reason I'd be just as happy with 17 rounds and finals, with an expanded, higher prestige pre-season.

 

[steve-o]

I don't know why this is still being discussed.

The current finals system works well.
3 divisions of 6 teams is the extent of separation between teams that the AFL will adopt.
This 17-round season business won't go anywhere.
22 rounds still works organically with the current system.

There is no need for drastic change. Maybe three divisions and each team has 14 home-state games, but that's it.

 

[El_Scorcho]

There wont be a 17 round season. More likely is a 24 or 26 round season with no preseason comp.

Ideally there would be two conferences of 9 teams, where you play each team in your conference home and away, and each team in the other conference once, with home or away being swapped every season. That would be 25 games and a good fit I reckon.

 

[steve-o]

There wont be a 17 round season. More likely is a 24 or 26 round season with no preseason comp.

Ideally there would be two conferences of 9 teams, where you play each team in your conference home and away, and each team in the other conference once, with home or away being swapped every season. That would be 25 games and a good fit I reckon.

And I hate this conference talk. They don't work in the US - why do you think they would work in Australia?

3 divisions of 6 teams.
22 rounds.
Any more rounds and we'll see major footy fatigue.

It's fine. It's actually kinda balanced this way. And the format DOESN'T have to change much, if at all. The status quo really isn't that bad folks.

 

[sutto]

NO odd amount of games. It's just wrong and not really done anywhere else in the world (Super 14 and A-League don't count as their schedules are fundamentally flawed).

The new 18 team comp should have 22 rounds, and the schedule is generated from the previous years standings. Each team plays each other once plus an additional 5 games against the teams that finished in the same third of the ladder as them.

This is a much fairer draw than what we have now. It gives the previous years strugglers a chance to climb the ladder because they have 10 games against the other easybeats, while the top teams will have a real battle as they have 10 games against the competitions heavy weights.

When W.Sydney and GC join they potentially have 10 games against easier teams, which will mean their first season won't be a complete disaster.

This suggestion also does away with the contrived 'Blockbuster' games as well. You'd get to see Hawthorn play Geelong twice under this system.

 

[Sockit151]

I think they will reduce the preseason games to 2 weeks. Then extend the H&A season by 2 games. Keep the same finals system with the 8 teams so the teams who make it have to work harder to make it to September.

If the GC team are going to come in 1 year earlier, how are the AFL going to deal with playing 17 teams? Some teams would have more byes than the others. It wouldn't be fair.

Some teams would have more byes??
Is this the biggest problem you can find??
Either have 3 byes on a couple of weeks to even it up, or a match ratio of wins as in the past, it pretty easy to even it out some how!!

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

We have a flawed system now, we will have a flawed system then.
It will most likely stay as 22 rounds + four weeks of finals. yes, that means some teams get an easier fixture than others because they'll play more of the weaker teams twice - we have that now, although its a little less impact currently due to playing more teams twice overall.
Those of us who support clubs without the ability to influence the fixture will simply have to deal with it. Unfortunately, truly random draws, etc, will not happen as it might mean that showdowns, derbies, whatever name gets given to the NSW and Qld rivalries, and Vic "blockbusters" might not happen twice.
(I, and others, have previously posted various three pools of six ideas to keep mpst of these pairings. In my version the pools would change through a random draw every few years; but some clubs would alwys be pooled together - WC/Freo, Carl/Coll, Syd/WSyd, GC/Bris, Adel/Port pairs would always be in the same pool and no pool would have more than 4 Vic clubs. It, or anything like it, won't happen though.)

It also possible, but highly unlikely, that we could have 24 rounds, and three weeks of finals with a top 4. Which would make finals elite again. The other week to be made up could be the rest week between the end of the pre-season and the start of the actual season.

 

[w00dy]

And I hate this conference talk. They don't work in the US - why do you think they would work in Australia?

3 divisions of 6 teams.
22 rounds.
Any more rounds and we'll see major footy fatigue.

It's fine. It's actually kinda balanced this way. And the format DOESN'T have to change much, if at all. The status quo really isn't that bad folks.

I agree, especially on the conferences. Dividing the teams up into divisions just won't sit well with a lot of fans. How are the divisions decided? Do they change each year? I don't like the concept.

I don't expect anything like this to happen, this post season idea is just that, an idea. I know the AFL will be too scared to try anything remotely different like this.

I just think there are a lot of benefits to a system like this. The post season would become something epic, with only the best teams playing each other, every game, every week for almost 2 months. People talk of extending the season to 24 or more rounds.

We know the final 8 is usually set for the most part by round 15, when everyone has played everyone once. Why waste time when we pretty much know who the best teams in the comp are anyway?

 

[sutto]

We know the final 8 is usually set for the most part by round 15, when everyone has played everyone once.

 

[rotto]

No need for conference as such. Everybody plays each other once = 17 games. West Coast, Freo, Adelaide and Port play twice. West Sydney, Sydney, Gold Coast and Brisbane play twice. Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond, and Carlton play twice. The other games can be raffled.

Final 10
First week 1, 2 Have Byes, 3 v 6 , 4 v 5 , 7 v 10, 8 v 9
Second week 1 v 4, 2 v 3, 5 v 8, 6 v 7.
Third Week 3 v 6, 4 v 5
Fourth week 1 v 3, 2 v 4
Grand Final

Another round of finals

 

[Mitchell Madness]

17 rounds would nto work. The collingwood draw would be

(home games)
Adeliade
Brisbane
Fremantle
Port
Sydney
WCE
Gold Coast
West Sydney

(Away games)
Carlton
Essendon
Geelong
Hawthorn
Kangas
Melbourne
Richmond
StKilda
Bulldogs



Thus proving that it would be unfair and they would never have to leave victoria


Best system would be 24 rounds (up from 22, thus means you still play the same amount of teams twice). No pre-season comp meaning season can be drawn out longer, accomodating breaks and SoO.


sure, some teams might have the luxury of playing a lower side twice, but, that is just luck of the draw if the old system comes back where each team plays each other in what would be the first 17 rounds.