Fremantles lack of scoring power

[WCErevival]

What happened to Ballantyne? Went from one of the best small forwards in the comp to barely contributing almost overnight. Does he have an injury or is it just age?

 

[Ian Dunross]

Yeah, and they were exposed come finals.

They had Fyfe on one leg and some terrible umpiring and lost by 5 goals to the greatest team of the modern era...

Lets not peddle the idea they can't compete w the best of the best

They can compete, but fall a bit short

With accurate goal kicking in 2013, or a fit Fyfe and competent umpiring, the might have a couple of flags and the Hawks just the one from the last 3 years

Yes, if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle

But these things are decided by fine margins, especially w Lyon teams, because of the low scoring

 

[Bardo State]

They wouldnt have taken a c grade amatuer team to play port in the last round

Port had recently come off a win against Hawthorn and Fremantle had lost to North and West Coast in two of the three games prior. Fremantle only beat Port by 7 in the opening round in Perth and hadn't had a convincing performance against a good team since the first half of the year. Even with a full team it would have certainly been no better than a coin flip.

 

[Max zero]

They had Fyfe on one leg and some terrible umpiring and lost by 5 goals to the greatest team of the modern era...

Lets not peddle the idea they can't compete w the best of the best

They can compete, but fall a bit short

With accurate goal kicking in 2013, or a fit Fyfe and competent umpiring, the might have a couple of flags and the Hawks just the one from the last 3 years

Yes, if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle

But these things are decided by fine margins, especially w Lyon teams, because of the low scoring

But thats half the problem, its the Fyfe/Sandilands show or bust. With less congestion and stoppages the two most important Freo players have reduced opportunities to impact the game.

 

[Ian Dunross]

I agree, but it's hard to argue it hasn't been very effective in the past 3 seasons.

 

[coerced]

I agree, but it's hard to argue it hasn't been very effective in the past 3 seasons.

Is it though? Any high volume scoring team that can patiently wait out Fremantle's defence for holes to appear will beat them. They lost to Adelaide in 2012, Hawthorn 2013, Sydney and Port in 2014 and Hawks again in 2015. All four of those clubs were higher scoring, with more avenues to goal, than Freo.

They were picked apart and brutalised again on the weekend, by a side that was much younger, simply because that young side prioritised moving the ball quickly to score. The Bulldogs didn't even have to flood to hold Fremantle to five goals.

They looked like old, decrepit men danced around by the Harlem Globetrotters. It isn't getting any better for them in the near term. They are cooked.

 

[Sully90]

Is it though? Any high volume scoring team that can patiently wait out Fremantle's defence for holes to appear will beat them. They lost to Adelaide in 2012, Hawthorn 2013, Sydney and Port in 2014 and Hawks again in 2015. All four of those clubs were higher scoring, with more avenues to goal, than Freo.

They were picked apart and brutalised again on the weekend, by a side that was much younger, simply because that young side prioritised moving the ball quickly to score. The Bulldogs didn't even have to flood to hold Fremantle to five goals.

They looked like old, decrepit men danced around by the Harlem Globetrotters. It isn't getting any better for them in the near term. They are cooked.

Would you argue that the Eagle's game plan was effective last year? Or Sydney's the year before?

 

[ROYAL EAGLE]

When Fremantle's midfield is up and going, its probably the best in the league.
The goal kicking problem goes away then.

By mid season you will see Walter, Lonie, Yarran, Pearce, Pavlich and Taberner with Fyfe and Bennell spending time there.

That group will go okay, there bigs arent great, but if they can compete and get the ball to the ground they will do well.

Yarran and Lonie I predict will be very good, they both have elite pace, and know how to use it especially yarran.

 

[Sully90]

When Fremantle's midfield is up and going, its probably the best in the league.
The goal kicking problem goes away then.

By mid season you will see Walter, Lonie, Yarran, Pearce, Pavlich and Taberner with Fyfe and Bennell spending time there.

That group will go okay, there bigs arent great, but if they can compete and get the ball to the ground they will do well.

Yarran and Lonie I predict will be very good, they both have elite pace, and know how to use it especially yarran.

?????

 

[coerced]

Would you argue that the Eagle's game plan was effective last year? Or Sydney's the year before?

West Coast's? No. Longmire had already shown himself capable of winning one, so the point is moot. We don't know enough about Simpson's game plan to say whether it is effective long term.

What is proven is Lyon's inability to win one. He's been in this caper nearly 10 years, and always fallen short. Too often caveats have been attached as to why he hasn't won one - reasons outside his control like injuries, the bounce of the ball, umpiring, etc. None of his defenders seem willing to address the fact that the teams he coaches struggle to score and emphasise defence ahead of all else, while teams that do score highly do win premierships.

And while he picks players like Clancee Pearce or Chris Mayne, can you really argue that he wants to change? It seems he is happy with his personnel and game plan, in spite of all the countervailing evidence that suggests it doesn't work.

 

[Mr Mister]

They'll bounce back. They're defensive beasts and despite the thrashing on the weekend, they were still able to restrict the dog's to only three goals in the middle half on the weekend. Once Fyfe bounces back to his best, they'll be tough to beat once again. Watch out Gold Coast, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a thrashing this week.

 

[kane249]

They'll bounce back. They're defensive beasts and despite the thrashing on the weekend, they were still able to restrict the dog's to only three goals in the middle half on the weekend. Once Fyfe bounces back to his best, they'll be tough to beat once again. Watch out Gold Coast, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a thrashing this week.

3 goals 10 during the middle half, the Bulldogs were still getting plenty of shots on goal but not converting.

I do agree they will put the clamps on the Gold Coast this week and having Sandilands and Johnson back will help them play their more natural game.

 

[Sully90]

West Coast's? No. Longmire had already shown himself capable of winning one, so the point is moot. We don't know enough about Simpson's game plan to say whether it is effective long term.

What is proven is Lyon's inability to win one. He's been in this caper nearly 10 years, and always fallen short. Too often caveats have been attached as to why he hasn't won one - reasons outside his control like injuries, the bounce of the ball, umpiring, etc. None of his defenders seem willing to address the fact that the teams he coaches struggle to score and emphasise defence ahead of all else, while teams that do score highly do win premierships.

And while he picks players like Clancee Pearce or Chris Mayne, can you really argue that he wants to change? It seems he is happy with his personnel and game plan, in spite of all the countervailing evidence that suggests it doesn't work.

I just find it odd that people are so willing to put a line through the game plan so completely like it's THE pure fault in our premiership push, especially considering the sheer amount of games that it's won for Fremantle. That same game plan has defeated Geelong twice and Sydney twice in the past four years. Are you saying that those two teams are incapable of winning premierships? It's taken the greatest team of the modern era to knock Fremantle out of two of those finals series, but that doesn't mean that the game plan is all of a sudden a piece of crap, it means that it takes a very very very strong team to beat it.

Now is that game plan out of date now? Most likely, and Lyon has repeatedly stated in interviews since preliminary finals last year that he needs a shift in focus. But to do that he's going to need to phase out some players, which we will see if he does over the course of the year. The wrong way to do that would be to suddenly roll out 8 new faces and see how they fair.

 

[Defacto]

I just find it odd that people are so willing to put a line through the game plan so completely like it's THE pure fault in our premiership push, especially considering the sheer amount of games that it's won for Fremantle. That same game plan has defeated Geelong twice and Sydney twice in the past four years. Are you saying that those two teams are incapable of winning premierships? It's taken the greatest team of the modern era to knock Fremantle out of two of those finals series, but that doesn't mean that the game plan is all of a sudden a piece of crap, it means that it takes a very very very strong team to beat it.

Now is that game plan out of date now? Most likely, and Lyon has repeatedly stated in interviews since preliminary finals last year that he needs a shift in focus. But to do that he's going to need to phase out some players, which we will see if he does over the course of the year. The wrong way to do that would be to suddenly roll out 8 new faces and see how they fair.

I do find it odd that you defend the game plan in the first paragraph then concede its out of date in the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph

 

[coerced]

I just find it odd that people are so willing to put a line through the game plan so completely like it's THE pure fault in our premiership push, especially considering the sheer amount of games that it's won for Fremantle. That same game plan has defeated Geelong twice and Sydney twice in the past four years. Are you saying that those two teams are incapable of winning premierships? It's taken the greatest team of the modern era to knock Fremantle out of two of those finals series, but that doesn't mean that the game plan is all of a sudden a piece of crap, it means that it takes a very very very strong team to beat it.

Neither Geelong nor Sydney have proven themselves as much chop since you beat them in 2012 + 2013 respectively. Both sides have since completely reengineered their best 22 to contain a good mix of youth. Lyon hasn't done this ever, after years of similar disappointments. Meanwhile the 2015 QF was one of the worst finals wins of all time - even with the week off and home ground advantage it seemed inevitable that you would lose to Hawthorn.

What is there truly for Lyon to hang his hat on? He's beaten two clubs in finals since he came to Fremantle (those you mentioned) and his record before that in finals wasn't much good either.

Yes, the game plan has won a lot of games for Fremantle, but there are also a lot of terrible teams in the AFL, especially so in recent years.

Now is that game plan out of date now? Most likely, and Lyon has repeatedly stated in interviews since preliminary finals last year that he needs a shift in focus. But to do that he's going to need to phase out some players, which we will see if he does over the course of the year. The wrong way to do that would be to suddenly roll out 8 new faces and see how they fair.

Who has he phased out? Aside from Weller, I saw the same old faces. Many of whom he should know are not good enough already.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Lyon is looking more and more like Mick Malthouse in his final year at Carlton, one dimensional and out of touch with the modern game, he now has a 5year contract so he woukd need to adapt asap.

At least he should now be able to get Mcarthy on the cheap though.

 

[Sully90]

Neither Geelong nor Sydney have proven themselves as much chop since you beat them in 2012 + 2013 respectively. Both sides have since completely reengineered their best 22 to contain a good mix of youth. Lyon hasn't done this ever, after years of similar disappointments. Meanwhile the 2015 QF was one of the worst finals wins of all time - even with the week off and home ground advantage it seemed inevitable that you would lose to Hawthorn.

What is there truly for Lyon to hang his hat on? He's beaten two clubs in finals since he came to Fremantle (those you mentioned) and his record before that in finals wasn't much good either.

Yes, the game plan has won a lot of games for Fremantle, but there are also a lot of terrible teams in the AFL, especially so in recent years.

Who has he phased out? Aside from Weller, I saw the same old faces. Many of whom he should know are not good enough already.

That Sydney team made a grand final the folllowing year......

I do find it odd that you defend the game plan in the first paragraph then concede its out of date in the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph

What I'm trying to say is that the game plan was fine to use in 13-15, and is most likely out of date this year.

 

[coerced]

That Sydney team made a grand final the folllowing year......

And they were severely inept.

There's no doubt that Lyon's method has been good at getting wins across the board, but in terms of cultivating a side that is regarded as the best in competition, it is severely wanting.

Statistically, he doesn't get his teams to score enough. Aesthetically, it is dry, dull football that instills no fear in sides capable of greatness.

Therein lies the problem. Do you think Hawthorn have ever feared Fremantle these past few years? Geelong and Sydney have scared the Hawks more, but Freo never have. For any club that aspires to be a premiership force, a side like Freo, with the style of football they play, are simply an annoyance on the way to greatness. To be dispatched in a dull and dour struggle while better rewards are in the offing.

 

[tunksy]

Game plans needs tweaking not throwing out.
They also need some kpfs to really set them up. Their midfield is bloody excellent get a good key forward for them to kick to and they will become very different and harder to beat.

 

[Sully90]

And they were severely inept.

There's no doubt that Lyon's method has been good at getting wins across the board, but in terms of cultivating a side that is regarded as the best in competition, it is severely wanting.

Statistically, he doesn't get his teams to score enough. Aesthetically, it is dry, dull football that instills no fear in sides capable of greatness.

Therein lies the problem. Do you think Hawthorn have ever feared Fremantle these past few years? Geelong and Sydney have scared the Hawks more, but Freo never have. For any club that aspires to be a premiership force, a side like Freo, with the style of football they play, are simply an annoyance on the way to greatness. To be dispatched in a dull and dour struggle while better rewards are in the offing.

I dont know what Hawthorn think behind closed doors and I doubt you do either.

 

[Juggs Magnetic]

At least we have Lonie

 

[JaxsonB]

They had Fyfe on one leg and some terrible umpiring and lost by 5 goals to the greatest team of the modern era...

They also barely got over the line against a crippled Sydney at home. Then lost to Hawthorn at home - admittedly, the juggernauts of the past few years, but I don't recall the umpiring being the difference at all (and if I'm not misremembering, some favourable umpiring helped them get ahead in the first quarter).

Anyone that was actually paying attention to the formline last year could clearly see that the Fremantle of rounds 1 through 8/9 (depends on how you rate their game vs Adelaide) was pretty much a different team from the Fremantle of round 10 onwards. I didn't check out the stats after round 8 or 9 last year, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they were at the premiership benchmark of 100 PF/86 PA. By the end of round 23 they were statistically the worst minor premier since the current finals system was introduced (based on points for, against and percentage relative to other top 4 teams).

 

[peppy la pew]

It was Round 1 and they had an off day. Put Sandilands, Johnson and eventually Bennell into that side and things will change.

Did a bigger sample of games this season before making too many judgements on how they'll go this season other than to say goal scoring was a weakness last year and on the evidence of Sundays game that hasn't improved

So this is where we are at

After rd 1

 

[Whatname]

no disrespect to guerra, but it seems like a lazy appointment. similar to the dogs loading up on ex geelong players 2-3 season back. on guerra did anyone want him as a coach?

he applied for a WAFL gig with Perth (who have been seriously average for a while now) and was quickly knocked back. it seems like ross is desperate for any hawthorn intel he can get

Never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn hey, I should start calling you Robbo.

Guerra was offered the Perth job and turned it down, reason being the pay packet wasnt enough.

 

[PAFC66]

Will miss the finals. Absolute certainty. Strap yaselves in.