Future All-Australian Team

[Quazza]

would the swans trade Grundy for Franklin-Yes
would the hawks trade Franklin for Grundy-No



theres ya answer

 

[SaintSyd]

there it is ...the old "cycle of success" ...it has provided cellar dwelling fans with a spine since the draft began.

If you are good now...you're gonna be lousy soon.
If you are lousy now...you have lots to look forward to.

Imagine it...nothing else but this fallacy to cling to.

Lets take a "proper perspective" on this as u ask....

....its no accident this thread was started by a tiges fan...and the only fans that took it seriously seemed to be to be blues, dons, hawks and north fans...guess why ?

Sydney is a favorite target of the cyclical experts in here. The assumption is that because they dont blood as many youngsters they are somehow doomed. Marvellous theory that...practical value = 0...historical proof = 0

Its simply a well abused crutch that helps fans of cellar dwelling clubs feel better about their lot. They've got no confidence at all...they secretly feel bad about it too but understand they arnt allowed to show it....so there's no choice but to find something to lean on.... and the easist thing is something intangible...something visionary and wondrous on the horizon.

"We have Judd"
"We've got lots of them...they just wont be any good for another few yrs"

Sydney lost an enormous number of classy players between 2001 and 2005....they didnt tank...they didnt finish below 11th for a long long time....very few top draft pix...and yet..

...their position on the ladder actually went UP

that should help put it in perspective for u...some REALITY should be mentioned rather than pie in the sky drivel from fans with only blind faith and wishful thinking to rely on....the same prayers fans have been relying on for 100yrs.

Dont bore us with AA teams full of guys who've never even played a game....

....that truly is SAD

Show some bloody spine...and tell ya club to show some whilst you're at it.

I think that it is pretty naive to think that Sydney will be able to escape the cycle forever. And yes there is a cycle!

You say that there is no historical proof because Sydney only dropped to 11th and then bounced back up. Sydney managed to lessen the effect the cycle had on them with some shrewd management but they still succumbed to the cycle nonetheless (albeit to a lesser extrent than some). They were 11th and then built steadily for a couple of years, making finals along the way and then finally a couple of GF's. To think that you will be there battling West Coast for the premiership for years to come is a bit rich.........

Here's the historical proof. Look at all the recent premiership sides before 2005. Port Adelaide, Brisbane, Essendon, Carlton, North Melbourne. The last 5 premiers before Sydney got up in 2005 are the current bottom 5 of the comp! Chance or coincidence?

Want more proof? OK, lets see if the trend surfaces in other sports with a similar drafting and trading system. Maybe the NBA? How has Chicago been going since their dynasty under Michael Jordan? Answer = terribly! How have the NY Knicks fared after a strong 1990's? Answer = hopeless! What happened to the Houston Rockets after they won 2 in a row in the 90's? Answer = they went crap but have recently rebounded after picking up a bunch of low picks via the draft system. What happened to the LA Lakers between the glorious Magic Johnson years and their recent run of success under Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant? Answer = they slumped!
The only difference is that the cycles in the NBA are generally longer in nature due to the smaller number of players needed to build a strong team so once a few star players are drafted, that's you whole staring line up for many seasons to come........

The only team to effectively cheat the NBA drafting system is the San Antonio Spurs who in the late 90's were a force but lost their All-NBA centre David Robinson for the season due to injury and ended up coming dead last. As a result they drafted Tim Duncan with the no. 1 draft pick and won the title within two years........

The only club sport I can think of that has teams that stay at the top for great lengths of time is soccer where a team's success is in effect bought. For example Arsenal & Man United in England, Juventus & AC Milan in Italy, real madrid and Bracelona in Spain etc etc etc....

It happens in the AFL. It happens in other sports with player drafts. Teams can manage the cycle to an extent but throw in a bit of bad luck and your team can expect to spend a while down the bottom if they have a had a period of success at the top. It's just the way it is...........

 

[Sublime]

check mate

So how exactly is that check mate? The way you talk about the Swans is that their recruiting technique is perfect and that they can't do anything wrong. Going by what you're saying, basically Sydney will be at the top of the ladder forever and ever because their drafting technique is so solid.

One flag in 70 years and a team at the moment that just happens to be very strong. Thats all your argument is built on. I always thought Sydney supporters were alright.... obviously not.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

overall nto a bad effort, only problem i have is heath shaw, personally, i havent sene him perform. I do not listen to what is said in the media, so it is my opinion, if i was like most, i would be on his bandwagon, but eh, i would shoot myself first before listening to the propaganda in the papers

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Haha I just checked roughead, kennedy and clarks' stats.

Roughead played 16 games for 6 goals, kennedy played 9 for 5 goals and clark played 6 games for 3 goals.

Sorry to say but Grundy has performed MUCH better than them...in a team with MUCH more forward competition.

But oh well...you just go ahead and underate our youngsters


Edit: The list of overated youngsters continues...
Rusling about 6 games for 4 goals and Cloke 19 games I think for 6 goals.

continue with your rant. but perhaps you should realise roughead spent most of his time in defence, Clark up forawrd and in the Ruck and Kennedy in the center/HFF.

They are very different positions, you would not expect Roughead to kick goals playing from FB, and HFF are expected to set up more goals then they kick, as usually they get their posessions at around the wing.

do you expect grundy to be a matchbreaker? I certainly dont, however, i believe Roughy, kennedy and clark will be, asuming they play their cards right.

 

[Bollox]

So how exactly is that check mate? The way you talk about the Swans is that their recruiting technique is perfect and that they can't do anything wrong. Going by what you're saying, basically Sydney will be at the top of the ladder forever and ever because their drafting technique is so solid.

One flag in 70 years and a team at the moment that just happens to be very strong. Thats all your argument is built on. I always thought Sydney supporters were alright.... obviously not.

No sunshine...no teams recruiting technique is perfect.

What u lot are failing to understand is that the team u like to hold up as an example...Sydney...is actually the team showing u that what you're saying is pure and utter rubbish.

There's no point holding onto an argument based on hope when the exact opposiite is happening right before your eye.

We must realllyyy be pi$$ing off the cellar dwellars at the moment...i;m starting to think they believe they will rise as we fall...its just a cycle of course.

Fact: u lot are just dreamers.
Fact: we dont need to be.

Suffer inya jocks girls.

 

[Corpuscles]

Swans Premiers, why is it when facts show your arguement to be wrong you choose not to reply to it, could it be you and your fellow Swans fans actually have no answer to the facts that Grundy is nothing more than an average player?

To say that playing with stars like Hall, O'Keefe, MOL, Davis and co will only make him a greater player is utter tripe. Just because you train and play with stars does not make you a better player, you need to have the qualities to make you a star to start with, as such Grundy is yet to show he has those star qualities, in fact he is nothing more than a useful stand in when he has a team full of stars around him. When he takes the game by the scruff of the neck as Franklin has done on occassions, as one of the main targets for his side not the 3rd/4th string option then he can be added to the list of future stars.

Dear Realistic Tiger (hahahaha did you purposely make the Oxymoron )

We have big hopes for Grundy and SwansPremiers may be overrating him slightly but..... easily would have been permanent top 22 if playing for Ninthmond Tiggers for tha last 2 years.

I refer to the most excellent post below. Suggest you printit out take it down to Punt Rd and nail on to Terry Hollywood Wallets dressing room... maybe then he might understand he has to deliver something inside 5 years!

There are two sets of fans in here.

Those that enjoy watching their team compete.
Those that wish their team could compete.

For over 100yrs clubs have duped their fans with talk of likely future success to quell the riots. Coaches, club presidents and fans have raved about potential and assured members that things are sweet.

Cellar dwelling clubs have alwys had two choices...recruit experience to compete or recruit youngsters and wait. During this waiting period fans stay loyal....some even brag about their new flashy recruits...others get impatient or despondent. But what they always have in common is they invariably lie through clenched teeth and squinting arses when talking to other fans about their team's prospects for the future.

At cellar dwelling clubs there's always a cpl of messiah's just waiting to lead a willing flock out of despair. Its all about faith and hope... losing results in thousands of budding theologists and soothsayers coming together to console each other....they use tales of past glories and great victories...once mighty era's written in history...they remedy sickened pride with mystical visons of a healthy future.

Blind faith becomes the only crutch left to lean on...and the faithful throng optimistically follow that well trodden path to future uncertainty.

Remember the old adage "a week is a long time in footy" ?...it is....fans of cellar dwelling clubs once dreamt about NEXT WEEK....now they dream about FIVE YEARS...they attach themselves to administrators and ex players with a vision of the future.... then sit back and start praying.

Average prospects suddenly look like stars...a few wins becomes the start of a new era...new hero's are born....words of optimism become gospel to the flock and hearts lift with every goal kicked....

...but there's a common theme in footy...something that clubs have been trying for over 100yrs...REBUILDING.

That word is simply a euphemism for failure.
That word is designed to protect those responsible from long knives.
That word triggers an immediate sigh but an eventual restoration of faith.

why does it restore faith ?...coz there is NO CHOICE BUT TO BELIEVE.

Something new and wondrous is on the horizon....

Please Please Please God make it so !!!

Gimme a win next week and i'm happy.

Excellent post comrade sums it up perfectly!!!!!

Can you believe these people praising the powess & picking players who have not yet got a kick!

 

[Bollox]

Can you believe these people praising the powess & picking players who have not yet got a kick!

I'm always impressed by their nostradamus like predictions....funny how the fans of bottom 6 clubs tend to become the biggest experts on the annual player lottery.

Unfortunately they simply come across more like kids kneeling next to a bed saying their prayers at night....

God bless mummy and god bless daddy....and god bless our priority pick.

 

[Corpuscles]

I'm always impressed by their nostradamus like predictions....funny how the fans of bottom 6 clubs tend to become the biggest experts on the annual player lottery.

Unfortunately they simply come across more like kids kneeling next to a bed saying their prayers at night....

God bless mummy and god bless daddy....and god bless our priority pick.

Well we would cut them some slack if that was the case ... but haven't you noticed there seems to be a whole tribe of them who are old enough to go to nightclubs.... and can faithfully & soberly report what the AFL naughtyboys have been up to at 3am... always one of them right on the spot!?

Also, although I dont agree with everything SP says, he mentioned yesterday, a clear clue to these Oracles ( doesn't come through clearly on channel crystal ball apparently ) that it is a bloody team game.... seems like more than half of Victoria still think that if you find a Carey or Ablett Snr or a Hirdy or a Nafan.... then you are automatically Top 4?

 

[Swans_Premiers]

Ok fans of crap teams.

When will you get this straight.
There are no FACTS to backup that any other young forward is going to be a better forward prospect than Grundy.

I'm not saying he will be the best, but there is nothing to say he won't.

You are basing your entire theory on the fact that Sydney is a good team now....while all the other players play in poor teams now.

Sorry but that's not the way it goes


Fact is...sydney have made 9 finals in the last 11 years...3 grand finals and lowest finishing position is 11th, Never missed the finals twice in a row. Had a change of coach, only have one player left form 1996 and had some of our best ever players retire....yet we are still going strong.

No one rated O'keefe, Bolton, barry or kirk when they were young now they are the core of a champion team.

But hey, as many people have said in this thread...you keep holding onto the illusion that because your team can't win games of football, you have better youngsters Whatever makes you feel better.

 

[SMOO]

If you want a Future Team, might as well chuck in these names

J.Smith
M.Morton
M.Rosa
Selwood Bros
]S.Higgins[/B]

[/B]

Why do you rate higgins?

 

[_RT_]

Ok fans of crap teams.

When will you get this straight.
There are no FACTS to backup that any other young forward is going to be a better forward prospect than Grundy.

I'm not saying he will be the best, but there is nothing to say he won't.

You are basing your entire theory on the fact that Sydney is a good team now....while all the other players play in poor teams now.

Sorry but that's not the way it goes


Fact is...sydney have made 9 finals in the last 11 years...3 grand finals and lowest finishing position is 11th, Never missed the finals twice in a row. Had a change of coach, only have one player left form 1996 and had some of our best ever players retire....yet we are still going strong.

No one rated O'keefe, Bolton, barry or kirk when they were young now they are the core of a champion team.

But hey, as many people have said in this thread...you keep holding onto the illusion that because your team can't win games of football, you have better youngsters Whatever makes you feel better.

There may not be FACTS that say that any other young player may be better than Grundy but it was you who produced facts to say that Grundy had performed BETTER than Franklin and to some extent Roughead. Yet when you look at the comparisons of all their careers he is in fact statistically inferior at present.

As for Franklin...He has played 34games with an average of 1.52 goals per game
Grundy has only played 5 games in his career and has an average of 1.8 goals per game

Considering Franklin has played 7 times as many games, and has pretty much no competition in the forward line...the Fact that Grundy has a better goal average when competing with Hall, O'keefe, O'loughlin, Davis, Schneider, Buchanan is just remarkable

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare....614&Compare=Go

What you Swans fans choose to ignore is that Grundy has 4 quality forwards ahead of him and when he does play he is usually going to be assigned the 3rd/4th best defender of any team as he is not a star currently(another average player). It would be like me claiming that Pettifer is a star performer after his 06 season but in reality he was playing the first half of the season on lesser opponents. When teams realised he was a danger he got the better opponents and as such his output fell.

Franklin on most occasions will get the 2nd best defender if playing at CHF if lucky and playing on a flank he will end up with the 3rd best at worst. Grundy has not torn sides apart as yet, Franklin has it does not get any easier than that. To put it bluntly if any SIDE was offered Franklin in the trade period they would take him, if the Swans were to offer Grundy at best you would get 4-6 sides interested, the other issue is Franklin would be worth a first round selection, Grundy at best maybe late second early third round.

 

[Swans_Premiers]

Still no facts to say anyone is a better forward prospect than grundy...
*sigh* when will you people learn.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Still no facts to say anyone is a better forward prospect than grundy...
*sigh* when will you people learn.

because grundy cant even get a perminate spot in the football team

 

[rfctigerarmy]

21 or under:

B Andrew Raines, Will Thursfield, Grant Birchall
HB Andrew Walker, Paul Bower, Heath Shaw
C Daniel Wells, Brent Stanton, Brendan Goddard
HF Danyle Pearce, Jarryd Roughead, Adam Cooney
F Eddie Betts, Lance Franklin, Travis Cloke
R Will Minson, Brock McLean, Marc Murphy
Int Byron Schammer, Brett Deledio, David Mundy, Ryan Griffen

LLLLLOOOLLLLL

 

[Bollox]

because grundy cant even get a perminate spot in the football team

Take note...this is what happens when u've forgotten how to win.

People start to forget about some of the very basics of footy....they start to think about coaching techniques u'd only contemplate if u are desperate.

Up here we think a bit different...we take a slightly more classical apporach to selections...a tried and trusted method thats been around a fair while.

We dont gift spots to kids....we actually make them earn it.

Its called...FORCING YOUR WAY INTO A TEAM.

I understand that might sound controversial to a Hawthorn fan....but its the sorta thing u might do when winning....u tend not to change a winning team much unless u must.

Grundy has kept our blokes firing...having a damn good prospect snapping at ya heels tends to keep u on your toes.

At Hawthorn he woulda been gifted games even when out of form...then never appreciate how difficult it was to get in....likely he woulda already played 30-50 and be some sorta new messiah.

It might be a foreign concept to you...but we like the idea of a stable team with good young players having to force their way in.

Sorry to confuse u with all this basic common sense footy stuff.

 

[gandaal]

LLLLLOOOLLLLL

Schammer, Griffin and Mundy would all get a place in the starting 18 before Deledio. Sorry to shatter your illusions.

 

[Jubair]

Maybe because he said 'future' AA team. The swans have hardly blooded any tantalising young talent over the last couple of seasons. Granted, it's part of the reason they have been a fighting force the last few years. They have been able to keep their best side on the park for a majority of the year. Consequently, they have had little need to throw lots of youngsters in the mix.

Who would you say are the awesome youngsters at your club?? Maleski... woooo hooooooo

ya thats true, Brisbane, in their premiership yrs were unable to blood many young players due to the fact that they had a settled experienced team and we didnt see many players whom ppl may have thought would become a good player but now since retirements and departures, we've noticed youngsters who may become good players.

Sydney seems to be going through the same phase.

 

[_RT_]

Still no facts to say anyone is a better forward prospect than grundy...
*sigh* when will you people learn.

Still no facts to say that Grundy will be a better forward than any of the prospects. Just your opinion that playing in a side that contains Hall & co will make him a better player. Just because you play with a few stars does not mean that you will be a star, you need talent to be a star, Grundy has skills not talent.

 

[Swans_Premiers]

Still no facts to say that Grundy will be a better forward than any of the prospects. Just your opinion that playing in a side that contains Hall & co will make him a better player. Just because you play with a few stars does not mean that you will be a star, you need talent to be a star, Grundy has skills not talent.

Never said Grundy would be the best you idiot. I said there is no proof to claim that all the others are way better than him just because they play for teams that can't win games of footy.

You know I'm right when I say that the only reason you rate your youngsters higher are because you need to hold on to the false hope that because you'r down the ladder now you will be up there again sometime and all your youngsters wil be superstars.

Skills not talent? Wtf is that.

Oh well apparently Sydney are the least talented team in the competition...yet we're still a champion team.

You can have your false hope of delidio maybe being half the player of goodes and winning a brownlow and we'll have the knowledge that we have the players, coach and staff to win finals and premierships.

goodluck in 2007

 

[_RT_]

Never said Grundy would be the best you idiot. I said there is no proof to claim that all the others are way better than him just because they play for teams that can't win games of footy.

You know I'm right when I say that the only reason you rate your youngsters higher are because you need to hold on to the false hope that because you'r down the ladder now you will be up there again sometime and all your youngsters wil be superstars.

Skills not talent? Wtf is that.

Oh well apparently Sydney are the least talented team in the competition...yet we're still a champion team.

You can have your false hope of delidio maybe being half the player of goodes and winning a brownlow and we'll have the knowledge that we have the players, coach and staff to win finals and premierships.

goodluck in 2007

You may not have said it in so many words that Grundy was the best but it was you who produced incorrect facts to say Grundy averaged more goals per game that Franklin even though Franklin played 5 times as many games as Grundy, yet in the comparison I did between the 5 players mentioned earlier in the thread Grundy's stats are inferior in nearly every catergory.

What is it you fail to understand regarding Grundy spot in the ranking of those players. He plays as the 4 option at best when all of the Swans stars are playing. Franklin, Kennedy, Clarke and Roughead are/will be their clubs first or second option over the next few years. Grundy will remain the 4th option for some time maybe 3rd if MOL retire in a year or 2.

Grundy has the skills to play AFL, he can mark, kick, handball & tackle. The talent I am talking about is the ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck and change it for a side. Grundy at best is a HFF all the others are KPP and while he may make the move to a Key forward position eventually as I said earlier it will not be for a few years. As for the Tigers youth that I never mentioned at all but will now. We have a very strong group of KPP types coming through, however unlike your good self I wont go labelling them as stars just yet. Most have played the same amount of games as Grundy if not less and have yet to establish themselves. Grundy had 1 good game and that was on debut after that he struggled to have a serious impact. To say he ranks up there with the Likes of Franklin is just wrong, their have been plenty of players in the past that have looked like stars in their first few games yet have never made it.

 

[Caj]

What a ridiculous thread, I challenge anyone to pick even 50% of next years team, let alone one 5 years down the track

Having said that as a Swans fan I'd take Franklin over Grundy every day of the week. Probably a bit early to judge on Roughhead as he has had more opportunities than Reg

 

[Big Cox]

Shannon Hurn is a certainty on a half forward flank. Kicks the ball 70m+ without trying.

 

[liz]

What is it you fail to understand regarding Grundy spot in the ranking of those players. He plays as the 4 option at best when all of the Swans stars are playing. Franklin, Kennedy, Clarke and Roughead are/will be their clubs first or second option over the next few years. Grundy will remain the 4th option for some time maybe 3rd if MOL retire in a year or 2.

I am not one who is yet pronouncing Grundy to be a star-in-waiting. He has shown glimpses of potential but he has a long way to go yet. But what your comment above fails to take account of is that the main reason Franklin, Kennedy etc wiil be their clubs' first or second options over the next few years is because they are at clubs with a welter of star senior forward options (apart from Fevola in the case of Kennedy). If any of those players played for Sydney, they would not be first or second choice options over the next few years. They'd be playing supporting roles, waiting for injuries to hit, or be honing their skills and learning their craft in Canberra.

Grundy has the skills to play AFL, he can mark, kick, handball & tackle. The talent I am talking about is the ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck and change it for a side. Grundy at best is a HFF all the others are KPP and while he may make the move to a Key forward position eventually as I said earlier it will not be for a few years.

Grundy is not a "HFF at best". If he makes it it will be as a key forward (or possibly even as a key forward). In none of his games this year did he play anything remotely resembling a HFF role. Indeed, I would go as far as saying that he is yet to demonstrate the physical attributes that would enable him to play a HFF role (eg agility, endurance). I'd be more confident of his long-term chances of making it if he did look as if he could play such a role because it would make him less dependent on injuries to Hall and O'Loughlin.

 

[Patty#32]

FB: Waters Brown H.Shaw
HB: Griffen Hansen Raines
C: Pearce Gibbs Sherman
HF: Walker Gumbleton O'Keefe
FF: Thorp Hawkins Jetta
On: Lueunberger Murphy Wells
In: Hale Rosa Butler Selwood(yet to be drafted one)