News Gabba Upgrade & Olympics News

[Billy ray]

Can they put a pool into boondall? Give it a new life?!

 

[GC2015]

As i have said many times we don't require Brisbane Arena/Live at all for the Olympics
What is more interesting is the costing. $480 million for a 12K capacity Entertainment Centre
Brisbane Arena/Live with a seating capacity promoted as 17k cost estimate of $2.5 - $3 billion
I noticed on the official Q2032.au site Brisbane Arena is now stated as "approximately 15,000 spectator seats,"

If this Southport project goes ahead and completed by 2030/31 i see it being used for the Olympics.
I doubt it will be designed with a drop in pool in mind. that would just add to the costs
It will be an Entertainment Centre that is also multipurpose like Boondall.

Venues will change in the lead up to the Olympics as more structures get built by public/private enterprise.

Heard Crisafulli say today that the Brisbane Arena project will go ahead and will be paid for by the federal government (not sure if that's all or partial funding). IIRC the Gold Coast Arena is likely to be mostly funded by the private sector. So it sounds like both cities are going to get new indoor arenas regardless. No idea if either of these tidbits have any bearing on the stadium.

 

[GC2015]

Heard Crisafulli say today that the Brisbane Arena project will go ahead and will be paid for by the federal government (not sure if that's all or partial funding). IIRC the Gold Coast Arena is likely to be mostly funded by the private sector. So it sounds like both cities are going to get new indoor arenas regardless. No idea if either of these tidbits have any bearing on the stadium.

I take that back. An article in the Gold Coast Bulletin today confirms that the Southport arena is “something that - if it happens - will be developed by the city, for the city and for Gold Coasters.” So it sounds like it will be developed/paid for by the Gold Coast council without any funding from the state or federal governments.

So we've got the GC Council funding the Southport Arena, the federal government funding the Brisbane Arena and we have no idea what the state government is going to do in regards to the Olympic stadium.

 

[Section 5]

Heard Crisafulli say today that the Brisbane Arena project will go ahead and will be paid for by the federal government (not sure if that's all or partial funding). IIRC the Gold Coast Arena is likely to be mostly funded by the private sector. So it sounds like both cities are going to get new indoor arenas regardless. No idea if either of these tidbits have any bearing on the stadium.

He also said the project has increased by $500 million. Not that he has seen a validation report so just political crap.
However, if he did believe that, then the State will have to come up with that $500 million as the commonwealth is capped at $2.5 billion for the project. Assuming it can be done for that price anyhow.
I hope the validation report comes in at $3.5 billion and let's see their response
Only a few days ago he was trying to get the Brisbane Arena finding moved. Now another backflip

Even if the price comes in at something reasonable expect a big fight coming regarding the impact on Roma Street Parklands
Roma Street Parkland is one of five locations in Australia to hold the Green Flag Award, an international accreditation given to the world’s best green spaces.
Two are in Brisbane the other being Southbank Parklands

What i have never understood is Brisbane Arena is not needed for the Olympics
It is like ASM Global’s Harvey Lister and Live Nation Australasia have some sort of hold over the previous state and commonwealth governments and now the new LNP.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Can they put a pool into boondall? Give it a new life?!

They can do lots of things to Boondall. Doesn't change the fact it's still near the end of a 2-track rail line 15km out from the city.

Best thing they could do with that place is knock it down and turn it into a lovely housing community.

 

[GC2015]

It is like ASM Global’s Harvey Lister and Live Nation Australasia have some sort of hold over the previous state and commonwealth governments and now the new LNP.

There's something going on there with ASM Global/Live Nation like you say. I've noticed the same thing on the GC with their negotiations.

What i have never understood is Brisbane Arena is not needed for the Olympics

Just a thought. If the Brisbane Arena is slated to host the Olympic swimming, then why couldn't this new Gold Coast Arena do it instead? Would save a lot of money that could be put towards a new stadium.

 

[Section 5]

There's something going on there with ASM Global/Live Nation like you say. I've noticed the same thing on the GC with their negotiations.


Just a thought. If the Brisbane Arena is slated to host the Olympic swimming, then why couldn't this new Gold Coast Arena do it instead? Would save a lot of money that could be put towards a new stadium.

I am all for anything that takes Brisbane Arena off the table for the Olympics but i doubt the Gold Coast proposal includes 3 drop in pools in the architect plans. Allowing for that would blow out the costs for sure.
I get that Brisbane is in need of a new Entertainment Centre nearer the city. Boondall is just too far away.
Any funding for it should be separate from the Olympics

Things change all the time in construction
Projects get canned for some reason or other, and that site then is on the table for something else.
Driving onto the freeway a few days ago i noticed demolition tape around the building marked in red below.
I did not go into May Street to see if it includes the building fronting May Street.

If it does, then i believe that was one of the alternate sites opposite Roma Street Station that Quirk mentioned for Brisbane Arena, but that site had its problems also.

 

[Dalions]

I am all for anything that takes Brisbane Arena off the table for the Olympics but i doubt the Gold Coast proposal includes 3 drop in pools in the architect plans. Allowing for that would blow out the costs for sure.
I get that Brisbane is in need of a new Entertainment Centre nearer the city. Boondall is just too far away.
Any funding for it should be separate from the Olympics

Things change all the time in construction
Projects get canned for some reason or other, and that site then is on the table for something else.
Driving onto the freeway a few days ago i noticed demolition tape around the building marked in red below.
I did not go into May Street to see if it includes the building fronting May Street.

If it does, then i believe that was one of the alternate sites opposite Roma Street Station that Quirk mentioned for Brisbane Arena, but that site had its problems also.

View attachment 2162840

Can’t see why they can’t just put $1b+/- into an extensive make over at Chandler for the swimming.

I agree Brisbane Arena shouldn’t be part of the Olympic funding.

A new Oval Stadium for Athletics/Opening and Closing Ceremonies in Brisbane should be more of a priority.

 

[Section 5]

Can’t see why they can’t just put $1b+/- into an extensive make over at Chandler for the swimming.

I agree Brisbane Arena shouldn’t be part of the Olympic funding.

A new Oval Stadium for Athletics/Opening and Closing Ceremonies in Brisbane should be more of a priority.

Quirk review mentions a $620 million pool complex at either Chandler or in the Boondall Entrainment precinct.

Chandler has a validation report which was put forward in May 2024. Link to report below.
Construction was to start in 2025 and be complete by 2027
But Crisafulli has put a hold on all minor venues for 130 plus days so that won't help with costs.
................................................................................................................................

A $256.5 million precinct project budget has been established to deliver the indoor sports centre, aquatic centre refurbishment and precinct works.

https://q2032-public-assets.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/documents/chandler-sports-precinct-pvr-summary_16052024.pdf

 

[jjami15]

Funny the Gold Coast Aquatic Centre only just held the Commonwealthn games not too long ago and now suddenly we are looking for other places? Common sense to me, geographically would tie in with ‘swimming’ being right next to the Broadwater and a money saver.

 

[Section 5]

Funny the Gold Coast Aquatic Centre only just held the Commonwealthn games not too long ago and now suddenly we are looking for other places? Common sense to me, geographically would tie in with ‘swimming’ being right next to the Broadwater and a money saver.

That's exactly the venue suggested by the IOC in reply to Brisbane's original suggestion of Brisbane Arena.

Brisbane went to big with 2 big ticket items when only one was needed

I am sure if Brisbane attached a $3 billion price tag to the project the IOC would have flatly refused to go along with it.
Note it states, "Agreement to build to be made in first half of 2021" also states the Owner & Operator "private" TBC.

 

[M Malice]

If Brisbane is not going to get a brand new Oval stadium and precinct (legacy infrastructure) out of the Olympics we mise well do a Melbourne and pull out of hosting it and pay whatever the financial punishment will be.

A main Olympic stadium at Metricon would be a joke, athletics is the centre piece of any Olympics and staging it on the Gold Coast would be nonsensical... if it happens call it the Gold Coast Olympics and hand the whole thing over to Tom Tate.

 

[Dalions]

if it happens call it the Gold Coast Olympics and hand the whole thing over to Tom Tate.

Atleast he might actually get something done.

 

[Andyz]

I like the Gabba location also.
I think it is a much better proven location than Victoria Park.
The location has its problems in regard to the land available.
Also getting to CRR and keeping the buses running after the game has to be a given within the new build.

They should open the bidding process worldwide and not favor Australia architects and builders.
I am sure an architect/builder worldwide with more modern techniques may be able to build an international class stadium.

According to Quirk we can't get to an international class or Australian class stadium in regard to facilities etc etc.
But we can get the Gabba to around 50-55k in legacy mode.
What we don't know is who he got this information/costing from to come to that conclusion.
He only had 60 days so i doubt the reach was wide.

I think Quirk is on the money....after venturing to the MCG multiple times - which is in the middle of a large park - it seems nonsensical to spend billions on a stadium squashed in on all 4 sides by very busy roads. Especially if it means the stands have to be built high & steep to try and fit the capacity in - that would make a crap viewing experience.

Large stadiums belong in parks, and the other major cities have all followed the same design principle too which make for a far nicer atmosphere & safer entry/exit from the stadium and means the stadiums can easily be expanded in the future.

The Gabba was poorly located at the start & if they spend billions trying to rebuild it at the same location well that will be a substandard result for us - albeit better than no result at all I guess.

With cricket already having dumped the Gabba, I wonder if the Lions would consider a new home elsewhere if Qld / Brisbane don't seem to think they deserve a decent stadium? You'd think with the Lions recent success and evergrowing membership & supporter base that they are foregoing a large amount of money every home game being limited to just 37,000 ticket sales per match. Not to mention the finals where they could have probably sold out a 60k stadium multiple times the last few years.

Also seems strange the state Gov't seems to have no interest whatsoever in the local economy....all the jobs & tourism that would flow on from keeping cricket and having much larger crowds each home game...wonder how many millions losing the opening test has cost the local economy....and how many jobs? And lack of tv exposure for Brisbane....could go on but what's the point!

 

[M Malice]

I think Quirk is on the money....after venturing to the MCG multiple times - which is in the middle of a large park - it seems nonsensical to spend billions on a stadium squashed in on all 4 sides by very busy roads. Especially if it means the stands have to be built high & steep to try and fit the capacity in - that would make a crap viewing experience.

Large stadiums belong in parks, and the other major cities have all followed the same design principle too which make for a far nicer atmosphere & safer entry/exit from the stadium and means the stadiums can easily be expanded in the future.

The Gabba was poorly located at the start & if they spend billions trying to rebuild it at the same location well that will be a substandard result for us - albeit better than no result at all I guess.

With cricket already having dumped the Gabba, I wonder if the Lions would consider a new home elsewhere if Qld / Brisbane don't seem to think they deserve a decent stadium? You'd think with the Lions recent success and evergrowing membership & supporter base that they are foregoing a large amount of money every home game being limited to just 37,000 ticket sales per match. Not to mention the finals where they could have probably sold out a 60k stadium multiple times the last few years.

Also seems strange the state Gov't seems to have no interest whatsoever in the local economy....all the jobs & tourism that would flow on from keeping cricket and having much larger crowds each home game...wonder how many millions losing the opening test has cost the local economy....and how many jobs? And lack of tv exposure for Brisbane....could go on but what's the point!

The fact that the Gabba is rapidly approaching its use by date makes it even more befuddling that we are not taking advantage of the Olympics to get a world class oval stadium.

I'd also argue that Victoria Park would be an even better location than the MCG re dispersal of crowds, closer availability of public transport and major arterial roads.

If it doesn't end up being Victoria Park we will have lost a once in a century opportunity to political posturing and incompetence.

 

[Section 5]

I think Quirk is on the money....after venturing to the MCG multiple times - which is in the middle of a large park - it seems nonsensical to spend billions on a stadium squashed in on all 4 sides by very busy roads. Especially if it means the stands have to be built high & steep to try and fit the capacity in - that would make a crap viewing experience.

Large stadiums belong in parks, and the other major cities have all followed the same design principle too which make for a far nicer atmosphere & safer entry/exit from the stadium and means the stadiums can easily be expanded in the future.

The Gabba was poorly located at the start & if they spend billions trying to rebuild it at the same location well that will be a substandard result for us - albeit better than no result at all I guess.

With cricket already having dumped the Gabba, I wonder if the Lions would consider a new home elsewhere if Qld / Brisbane don't seem to think they deserve a decent stadium? You'd think with the Lions recent success and evergrowing membership & supporter base that they are foregoing a large amount of money every home game being limited to just 37,000 ticket sales per match. Not to mention the finals where they could have probably sold out a 60k stadium multiple times the last few years.

Also seems strange the state Gov't seems to have no interest whatsoever in the local economy....all the jobs & tourism that would flow on from keeping cricket and having much larger crowds each home game...wonder how many millions losing the opening test has cost the local economy....and how many jobs? And lack of tv exposure for Brisbane....could go on but what's the point!

I have decided for now to concentrate my thoughts on the Gabba as Crisafulli has said no to anything that's logical.

I am not sure where the Lions would play other than what the State government can provide.

The Lions together with the AFL and cricket throwing in a huge amount of money would not come close to the $3 billion needed for a new stadium.
I know this figure is not what you were thinking. Just find another venue but that's hard to do and will still be expensive.
Even improvements to play at Brighton Homes Arena an existing venue would see our membership base crumble.

Stadiums in Australia don't make nearly enough money to cover repaying the debt.
Interest alone on $3 billion at say 3% (interest bearing debt 3.28% US bank june 2024) is $90 million a year.
Hopefully that rate drops back to the 1-2% in the next 12 months.

So, how much profit do stadiums make. Way less than people think, and often run at a loss.
A lot of debt is carried by State & Commonwealth Governments at the initial build stage with contributions during the life of the stadium.
The MCG
The club posted a net profit of $32.1 million for the year to the end of March after paying down the last $37 million in debt it owed for the Northern Stand. MCC chief executive Stuart Fox said AFL attendance “smashed” previous records with 3.32 million fans attending AFL and VFL football at the MCG in 2023

The Gabba
I can't isolate The Gabba as it is all part of Stadiums Australia, but the Queensland venues financial report is separate.
It includes a lot of venues including the Gabba, Suncorp, Carrara, QSAC, Tennis Centre at Tennyson, The Cowboys Townsville Stadium and minor venues
Altogether they posted a loss of $73 million for financial year 2023/24.

 

[Section 5]

If Brisbane is not going to get a brand new Oval stadium and precinct (legacy infrastructure) out of the Olympics we mise well do a Melbourne and pull out of hosting it and pay whatever the financial punishment will be.

A main Olympic stadium at Metricon would be a joke, athletics is the centre piece of any Olympics and staging it on the Gold Coast would be nonsensical... if it happens call it the Gold Coast Olympics and hand the whole thing over to Tom Tate.

Firstly, i have no idea what will happen in 130 days' time
At a wild guess the Gabba will host athletics but let's have a look at Carrara in case.

I think the Carrara image the world would see can be easily addressed.
The site does have other problems, some can be mitigated with planning.

I don't think Carrara for athletics will be a bad as you envisage in regard to what the world will see.
You should be able to do a lot with $1.6 billion especially with an already prepared site like Carrara.
It is just begging to be completed properly. Most likely funding from the Gold Coast too.
Getting a 100-meter track into a fully completed oval stadium usually requires extensive and costly changes.
Carrara is not fully completed. It will be easy enough to install a 100-meter track by extending the already open section.
Build that section up to 3 levels and increase the capacity to 32-35k in legacy mode, close to the present Gabba capacity.
Realign the playing field boundary for AFL after the Olympics so the new section is not too far back for AFL viewing.

We need to get the 2018 Commonwealth Games looking site out of our mind to start with.
Think of something along the lines of the Gabba as it exists now. Thats how it will look like.
That look won't be an embarrassment at all. It will look great, and a full house is a full house.
In my opinion the capacity number is not all that important, if it can get that Gabba crowd atmosphere.
Plenty of room for a training track close by.

If Carrara's finished product looked like this most people will say that's great just a shame it could not hold more people.
Below images taken from skyepics.com.au

 

[M Malice]

Firstly, i have no idea what will happen in 130 days' time
At a wild guess the Gabba will host athletics but let's have a look at Carrara in case.

I think the Carrara image the world would see can be easily addressed.
The site does have other problems, some can be mitigated with planning.

I don't think Carrara for athletics will be a bad as you envisage in regard to what the world will see.
You should be able to do a lot with $1.6 billion especially with an already prepared site like Carrara.
It is just begging to be completed properly. Most likely funding from the Gold Coast too.
Getting a 100-meter track into a fully completed oval stadium usually requires extensive and costly changes.
Carrara is not fully completed. It will be easy enough to install a 100-meter track by extending the already open section.
Build that section up to 3 levels and increase the capacity to 32-35k in legacy mode, close to the present Gabba capacity.
Realign the playing field boundary for AFL after the Olympics so the new section is not too far back for AFL viewing.

We need to get the 2018 Commonwealth Games looking site out of our mind to start with.
Think of something along the lines of the Gabba as it exists now. Thats how it will look like.
That look won't be an embarrassment at all. It will look great, and a full house is a full house.
In my opinion the capacity number is not all that important, if it can get that Gabba crowd atmosphere.
Plenty of room for a training track close by.

If Carrara's finished product looked like this most people will say that's great just a shame it could not hold more people.
Below images taken from skyepics.com.au

View attachment 2163557
View attachment 2163568

I am not too concerned about the perception re Metricon... my main issue is the legacy Oval Stadium for the Lions and Cricket.

An upgraded Metricon does not solve the Gabba usefulness era coming to an end, it would still leave a future Government needing to find Billions for a new Oval Stadium or a substantially upgraded and capacity increased Gabba(in all probability still costing Billions itself) in Brisbane for AFL/Cricket/Large concerts.

 

[Andyz]

I have decided for now to concentrate my thoughts on the Gabba as Crisafulli has said no to anything that's logical.

I am not sure where the Lions would play other than what the State government can provide.

The Lions together with the AFL and cricket throwing in a huge amount of money would not come close to the $3 billion needed for a new stadium.
I know this figure is not what you were thinking. Just find another venue but that's hard to do and will still be expensive.
Even improvements to play at Brighton Homes Arena an existing venue would see our membership base crumble.

Stadiums in Australia don't make nearly enough money to cover repaying the debt.
Interest alone on $3 billion at say 3% (interest bearing debt 3.28% US bank june 2024) is $90 million a year.
Hopefully that rate drops back to the 1-2% in the next 12 months.

So, how much profit do stadiums make. Way less than people think, and often run at a loss.
A lot of debt is carried by State & Commonwealth Governments at the initial build stage with contributions during the life of the stadium.
The MCG
The club posted a net profit of $32.1 million for the year to the end of March after paying down the last $37 million in debt it owed for the Northern Stand. MCC chief executive Stuart Fox said AFL attendance “smashed” previous records with 3.32 million fans attending AFL and VFL football at the MCG in 2023

The Gabba
I can't isolate The Gabba as it is all part of Stadiums Australia, but the Queensland venues financial report is separate.
It includes a lot of venues including the Gabba, Suncorp, Carrara, QSAC, Tennis Centre at Tennyson, The Cowboys Townsville Stadium and minor venues
Altogether they posted a loss of $73 million for financial year 2023/24.

Ah so true, says no to anything logical....it's become such a joke how the state is run!

I'd say if the State Gov't doesn't provide a sufficient stadium they'd have to relocate the large games/finals to the MCG where they'd make double the money...but who knows hopefully not something that will ever occur.....

I would agree that stadiums just purely in operational terms wouldn't be expected to be making too much money....it's the flow on effects of a more vibrant city that attracts more people and therefore more tourism, local jobs & more small businesses.....makes for a nicer city with more to do and additionally as citizens paying such enormous taxes we expect to be provided with decent infrastructure like all the other cities have so we don't become a city where we just have to watch sports on tv's while other cities' citizens get to attend live sports because they have all built decent sized stadiums when our state - even with the upcoming Olympics and Olympic funding - still didn't.

And it would be an even bigger joke if the Gold Coast ended up with a better stadium than Brisbane - the state capital....

The Lions have done superbly with our nice new premiership cup (still cannot believe that GWS final!!) but I fear it is just a matter of time before we struggle income wise compared to other clubs when we are limited to such small attendances while all the other clubs can have crowds of 50k - 100k....

 

[Section 5]

I am not too concerned about the perception re Metricon... my main issue is the legacy Oval Stadium for the Lions and Cricket.

An upgraded Metricon does not solve the Gabba usefulness era coming to an end, it would still leave a future Government needing to find Billions for a new Oval Stadium or a substantially upgraded and capacity increased Gabba(in all probability still costing Billions itself) in Brisbane for AFL/Cricket/Large concerts.

Getting an international standard oval for AFL/cricket/concerts with capacity of 55k plus would be great.
Especially if it is built somewhere other than The Gabba
We can say this over and over but that won't make it happen.

All Crisafulli has to do (unlikely) is forget about including "no new stadium" and "nothing at Victoria Park" in the terms of reference and we stand a chance of getting a positive outcome.
I won't hold my breath though.

During the 12 months before the election he repeatedly stated, "everything is on the table" in regard to the Olympics
Then about 3 months out from the election it was back to "no new stadiums" and later "no to Victoria Park".

 

[Johnny Bananas]

In the Courier Mail. The smaller one says "modest cheap fix-up".

 

[Section 5]

As posters know i am now concentrating on the Gabba at least till the review comes back in Feb/Mar 2025.
Also, it looks like my pet hate Brisbane Arena will be going ahead one way or another
LNP a week ago wanted to move funding now they are happy to go ahead with BA.
I still hope the validation report comes in at $3 billion for them to rethink the site and even the project.

So how can we get 2 big ticket items done for $4.6 billion.
That's using $2.5 billion for BA and up to $2.1 billion ($1.6 + $0.5) for a stadium
Maybe this forgotten plan could work. No costings mentioned in their proposal
I assume efficiencies gained due to the closeness of both sites.
Huge disruption to the area though.

Like all rendering it looks great and has a 55K capacity. Apparently, it is unlikely to get more capacity on the existing site.
Images always look good so i will post a few with a link to the site with more images.
That way people can go Wow looks fantastic ha ha.

The Gabba Olympic Park

www.halarchitects.com.au

 

[M Malice]

I love the aesthetics of the mock up, would definitely need raised wide walkways all around the Gabba to disperse the crowd over Mains Rd to the Bus/cross river rail and Stanley/Vulture Streets into surrounding streets.

The walkway all the way to Southbank another good move.

I wonder if where the Lions and Cricket go while this is potentially being done is part of the 100 day review terms of reference.

 

[Elixuh]

As posters know i am now concentrating on the Gabba at least till the review comes back in Feb/Mar 2025.
Also, it looks like my pet hate Brisbane Arena will be going ahead one way or another
LNP a week ago wanted to move funding now they are happy to go ahead with BA.
I still hope the validation report comes in at $3 billion for them to rethink the site and even the project.

So how can we get 2 big ticket items done for $4.6 billion.
That's using $2.5 billion for BA and up to $2.1 billion ($1.6 + $0.5) for a stadium
Maybe this forgotten plan could work. No costings mentioned in their proposal
I assume efficiencies gained due to the closeness of both sites.
Huge disruption to the area though.

Like all rendering it looks great and has a 55K capacity. Apparently, it is unlikely to get more capacity on the existing site.
Images always look good so i will post a few with a link to the site with more images.
That way people can go Wow looks fantastic ha ha.

The Gabba Olympic Park

www.halarchitects.com.au

View attachment 2164177

View attachment 2164176

View attachment 2164173

View attachment 2164172

Imagine how difficult that is going to be to build in that area

 

[Dalions]

As posters know i am now concentrating on the Gabba at least till the review comes back in Feb/Mar 2025.
Also, it looks like my pet hate Brisbane Arena will be going ahead one way or another
LNP a week ago wanted to move funding now they are happy to go ahead with BA.
I still hope the validation report comes in at $3 billion for them to rethink the site and even the project.

So how can we get 2 big ticket items done for $4.6 billion.
That's using $2.5 billion for BA and up to $2.1 billion ($1.6 + $0.5) for a stadium
Maybe this forgotten plan could work. No costings mentioned in their proposal
I assume efficiencies gained due to the closeness of both sites.
Huge disruption to the area though.

Like all rendering it looks great and has a 55K capacity. Apparently, it is unlikely to get more capacity on the existing site.
Images always look good so i will post a few with a link to the site with more images.
That way people can go Wow looks fantastic ha ha.

The Gabba Olympic Park

www.halarchitects.com.au

View attachment 2164177

View attachment 2164176

View attachment 2164173

View attachment 2164172

Always liked this proposal, it looks awesome and I also like the BA across the road, a beautiful entertainment precinct.
And something Brisbane should be proud of.

How about we swap it around and say $2.5b for the stadium and $2.1b for the Arena
Or $4.6b for the full development and the Feds to throw in a maximum of $2.5b?