Geelong - Too old, too slow?

[MC Extra Dollop]

You might not want to confront reality, but that's more or less how it is.
Even without bottoming out, at the very least your club could've actually used more first and second round picks instead of trading them all for old farts. You would've had much healthier list profile today instead of having a team with half of the players aged 30+.

We have a number of first and second round picks from the last 3-4 years, I don't think that's really the problem. The problem is we don't know if they're any good because we don't play them. And for players like Cooper Stephens and Sam de Koning it isn't fair, but I'm sceptical because our track record of picking in that range (Billie Smedts, Darcy Lang, Jackson Thurlow over Brodie Grundy) is pretty brutal.

 

[matey]

Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, loyalty is a two-way street, etc...etc...

Much different circumstances Clarko had an honest chat, couldn’t guarantee them games moving forward, needed to manage a group of club legends all departing at once in a short period. These guys weighed up their options and opportunities. Smith was offered a contract! He’s lost a lot of respect from Hawk fans.

I think Scott needs to have some of these chats with his players to be honest. Last night he talked about the players being banged up and plugging holes last 6 weeks …….. it’s only going to get worse as the core group gets one year older.

 

[ButtersILove]

We did not go to the bottom prior to 2007-2009-2011.

Your success in those 5 years was built through the drafts, mainly from 1999 to 2002.

Trading of our picks is a seperate thing.

No it's not.

 

[eastfreo75]

Isaac Smith decided to turn his back on the club that gave him 3 premierships for more success …… enjoy the cliff ride and make sure you pack your parachute! That was so comprehensive last night Cats have got no chance of more silverware with the current group.

Hawks poached a lot of players from other clubs.

 

[The 747]

Your success in those 5 years was built through the drafts, mainly from 1999 to 2002.


No it's not.

Did we finish on the bottom or in the bottom 4 did we?

 

[ButtersILove]

We have a number of first and second round picks from the last 3-4 years, I don't think that's really the problem. The problem is we don't know if they're any good because we don't play them. And for players like Cooper Stephens and Sam de Koning it isn't fair, but I'm sceptical because our track record of picking in that range (Billie Smedts, Darcy Lang, Jackson Thurlow over Brodie Grundy) is pretty brutal.

Geelong's first and second round picks they've traded away for older players since 2014:

Pick 21 for Rhys Stanley
Picks 9 and 28 for Patrick Dangerfield
2016 first rounder for Lachie Henderson
2017 second rounder for Zach Touhy
Pick 19 for Gary Ablett (turning 34)
Pick 30 for Shaun Higgins
Picks 13, 15 and 20 for Jeremy Cameron (2 mid-second rounders coming back)

That's at least 8 quality young players you could've brought in. Remember the 2007-2011 days? That was built on the back of picking up guys like Bartel, Chapman, Kelly, Mackie, Corey, Ling, Enright and Ablett over a four year period.

Sure, you've had some stinker first rounders over the last decade, but are you really comfortable with using that as an excuse for filling such a large portion of the list with old players? Especially considering the draft is where you built your 07-11 champion team?

 

[ButtersILove]

Did we finish on the bottom or in the bottom 4 did we?

If you're going to use the arbitrary measurement of "bottom 4", then no, but you did use several draft picks on young players, a fact you're continuing to ignore. I wonder why...

 

[matey]

Hawks poached a lot of players from other clubs.

Player movement has always happened and will continue to happen. I am referring to a specific player who achieved the ultimate success 3 times with us (we plucked him out of no where!), was offered a contract and he turned his back on the club when we needed leadership with the youngsters coming through. Congrats to the Cats for getting him but from a Hawks perspective he’s lost respect and I’m glad he will not achieve success in another jumper.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

And just since 2015, that still doesn't include Zac Smith, Jack Steven, Shaun Higgins, Isaac Smith, and Gary Rohan. Can't wait to see who our next 32-year-old boom recruit will be.

Zaka

 

[Giant Pete]

Scott brothers… too proud to take the time and hit to develop a young list. He’ll bail out next year in a self managed way like his brother and leave them up shit creek.

 

[Spook]

AFL is the elite brand of Australian Rules Footy, kicks to target and intelligent reads of the play defensively is everyone's standard surely?

Yes you're Right. Also need some run and gun as well.

 

[Partridge]

We have a number of first and second round picks from the last 3-4 years, I don't think that's really the problem. The problem is we don't know if they're any good because we don't play them. And for players like Cooper Stephens and Sam de Koning it isn't fair, but I'm sceptical because our track record of picking in that range (Billie Smedts, Darcy Lang, Jackson Thurlow over Brodie Grundy) is pretty brutal.

When we do play them we tend not to put them in their natural position either. Smedts as a half back flanker instead of half forward, Lang anywhere except midfield (by far his best game for Geelong was his second last one - in a final), and so on.

 

[doppleganger]

The Cat's strategy has clearly failed which is good for the competition as it proves you can't ignore the draft and trade in a premiership.
Chris Scott has been there over 11 years with an appalling finals record.
He can't possibly go on after this debacle.

What absolute crap.
C.Scott arrived at the tail end of a successful era 07-11, when the Cats went 3 flags from 4 GFs..

Lions were up from 99-04, then rubbish for a decade and Geelong still outperforming them recently too, when the Lions finally moved out of the cellar.
Hawks were up from 11-16, kept punching for a bit but now out of contention and no guarantee of getting back any time soon.

It is where the Tigers are right now.

Cats have spent the next decade 12-21 still playing in PFs, sure they came up short to some Dusty brilliance on more than one occasion, but that is what happens only one team can be premiers.

Even the Pies are a good case, after 2009-12, we moved on plenty of premiership stars and hit the draft hard in 2012, 13 and 14 - taking 4 top10 picks and 3 in top 20 - from those 3 drafts. We spent 4-5 years being mediocre, and then rose for a few but still fell short and were actually trounced by the Cats in a SF, and now look shitful again.

What path do you want the Tigers to take in the next decade post their successful period - Lions, Hawks, Pies or Cats - none have won anything so by your definition all have failed, but their is being bottom 4 for a decade (Lions), being mediocre (Pies/Hawks) or playing in 6 PFs (Cats), where if get a bit of luck you could grab a flag.

 

[BigVic]

Eagles hit the draft after a stinker 2008 season during our years outside the 8 building our list for the 2018 premiership. Cats are simply ignoring the draft

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Was a disgrace what Smith did. No loyalty whatsoever to a team that gave him 3 premiership medals

Im a Hawks fan and had no issue with the move at all. In fact I was all for it from his perspective and from Hawthorn's perspective looking forward.

I wasn't over the moon as far as it was going to be a big help to geelong though, but that bullet has been dodged!

He has had a bloody good year, he has been the best dads army signing, excluding Jezza bc he is under 30.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Geelong's first and second round picks they've traded away for older players since 2014:

Pick 21 for Rhys Stanley
Picks 9 and 28 for Patrick Dangerfield
2016 first rounder for Lachie Henderson
2017 second rounder for Zach Touhy
Pick 19 for Gary Ablett (turning 34)
Pick 30 for Shaun Higgins
Picks 13, 15 and 20 for Jeremy Cameron (2 mid-second rounders coming back)


That's at least 8 quality young players you could've brought in. Remember the 2007-2011 days? That was built on the back of picking up guys like Bartel, Chapman, Kelly, Mackie, Corey, Ling, Enright and Ablett over a 4 year period.

Sure, you've had some stinker first rounders over the last decade, but are you really comfortable with using that as an excuse for filling such a large portion of the list with old players? Especially considering the draft is where you built your 07-11 champion team?

Well firstly, you're ignoring that we got the pick that we traded for Rhys Stanley by trading Allen Christensen, the haul for Tim Kelly, that Tuohy was basically a swap for Billie Smedts (I think it was something like Smedts and our first rounder for Tuohy and Carlton's second rounder, which given the respective teams' positions at the time was only about a 5-6 pick difference) and I'm sure there'd be more that I could point to if I was so inclined.

Dangerfield and Tuohy have been huge ticks, Henderson and Stanley probably ticks, Higgins looks pretty certain to be a cross. Cameron too early to call but he was very good overall in an injury plagued first year. I'd argue that Ablett is a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be. Ablett and Tim Kelly for Will Powell and Bailey Williams sounds pretty decent to me.

Our misfires have tended to be pretty low risk, the guys that people will quickly forget were ever on our list: Steven, Black, Jenkins, those types. Overall a few more draft picks would have been nice, but I don't think more draft picks is the real problem. The problem is starving the younger players we have of opportunities to the stage that they're approaching their mid-20s and we're still not sure if they can cut it as senior players. Fair enough, those two are somewhat related, but hopefully a strict rotation policy was something that Scott was flagging and that gives these players opportunities, for better or worse.

Free agency and trading has exploded since our last premiership and it don't think it's a reasonable comparison.

If anything, what I'd take from our 2007-11 sides that doesn't seem to be there now is the killer instinct, going for the jugular when we have an opponent down. Other teams can do it with an on/off switch, but 16-6 has never really done much for us in the long run. Our premierships were won as a dominant side, 18-4 or better. Losses like that Round 23 capitulation with top spot on the line (and the subsequent "she'll be right" attitude) just wouldn't happen.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

What absolute crap.
C.Scott arrived at the tail end of a successful era 07-11, when the Cats went 3 flags from 4 GFs..

Lions were up from 99-04, then rubbish for a decade and Geelong still outperforming them recently too, when the Lions finally moved out of the cellar.
Hawks were up from 11-16, kept punching for a bit but now out of contention and no guarantee of getting back any time soon.

It is where the Tigers are right now.

Cats have spent the next decade 12-21 still playing in PFs, sure they came up short to some Dusty brilliance on more than one occasion, but that is what happens only one team can be premiers.

Even the Pies are a good case, after 2009-12, we moved on plenty of premiership stars and hit the draft hard in 2012, 13 and 14 - taking 4 top10 picks and 3 in top 20 - from those 3 drafts. We spent 4-5 years being mediocre, and then rose for a few but still fell short and were actually trounced by the Cats in a SF, and now look shitful again.

What path do you want the Tigers to take in the next decade post their successful period - Lions, Hawks, Pies or Cats - none have won anything so by your definition all have failed, but their is being bottom 4 for a decade (Lions), being mediocre (Pies/Hawks) or playing in 6 PFs (Cats), where if get a bit of luck you could grab a flag.

Richmond has the most draft points this year and a young list so we should be right for a while yet.
We have been successful in finding good players in the rookie draft and then on-trading some of them for draft picks moneyball style.
I think we can buck the trend.
If you lose a preliminary final by 80 points at a neutral venue, with your best team minus Stewart, it is not good.
You need to recruit some pace, Rohan was brought in for that , so was Narkle .
I would make a big effort to get in some of the AFL's fastest players as your spine is fine.

 

[The 747]

If you're going to use the arbitrary measurement of "bottom 4", then no, but you did use several draft picks on young players, a fact you're continuing to ignore. I wonder why...

I am not ignoring it, I was asking you a question which you keep avoiding. So we should tank and go to the bottom in order to win flags right?

 

[Spook]

I honestly think it is more about leadership. Selwood is a selfish player who prefers to get a free kick and therefore a stop play and then a slow play. If he lifted his arms, took the tackle, got off a quick handball it would be an Attacking fast play.
Diverfiled spent so much time off his feet last night that he was out of the next contest. He Picked up most of his possession across the middle of the ground, none in the back 50 pushing hard back to help the defense and only one in the forward 50 tucked up in the pocket. Oliver had 6 in the back 50, Petracca 5.
Selwood was abusing umpires while Melbourne leadership were telling their players to shut up and push back when they occasionally spoke back to the ump.
Selwood is probably the least respected, by the fans, great player in my lifetime.
Free kicks don't win finals.

 

[doppleganger]

Richmond has the most draft points this year and a young list so we should be right for a while yet.
We have been successful in finding good players in the rookie draft and then on-trading some of them for draft picks moneyball style.
I think we can buck the trend.
If you lose a preliminary final by 80 points at a neutral venue, with your best team minus Stewart, it is not good.
You need to recruit some pace, Rohan was brought in for that , so was Narkle .
I would make a big effort to get in some of the AFL's fastest players as your spine is fine.

Ok so you have chosen the Pies path, of hit the draft and hope to buck the trend.

Enjoy a decade of mediocrity.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Oldest teams over a finals series

Avg Age	Year	Club	Finals	Ladder
28.32	2020	Geel	4	2nd
28.16	1919	Carl	1	4th
28.15	2021	Geel	3	3rd*
27.89	1904	Coll	1	3rd
27.74	1924	Ess	3	1st
27.71	2015	Haw	4	1st
27.66	1944	Fitz	2	1st
27.65	2016	N.M.	1	8th
27.61	1947	Fitz	2	3rd
27.55	1911	Carl	1	4th
27.49	2010	Geel	3	3rd
27.42	1909	Carl	3	2nd
27.40	1904	Carl	2	2nd
27.37	2016	Haw	2	5th
27.35	1943	Fitz	2	3rd
27.34	2019	W.C.	2	6th

 

[theyellowsash]

Too slow?

Shaun Atley and Jared Polec will fix that!

What about the most important stat, their age?

 

[Obeanie1]

You might not want to confront reality, but that's more or less how it is.
Even without bottoming out, at the very least your club could've actually used more first and second round picks instead of trading them all for old farts. You would've had much healthier list profile today instead of having a team with half of the players aged 30+.

IMO those 30 + year old look great playing in Geelong. Nice narrow ground, easier to defend with bigger slower defenders.

Also look pretty good against weaker opposition playing away.

But get past week 1 in finals the Cats are playing away from home against faster, younger abd better sides. And thats when they fall short.

Hence why they make top 4 consistently and then fall short at the last hurdle.

 

[doppleganger]

Eagles hit the draft after a stinker 2008 season during our years outside the 8 building our list for the 2018 premiership. Cats are simply ignoring the draft

So this hitting the draft strategy can sometimes pay off a decade later....

or you can be a StK, Freo, GWS and never get the further than Geelong anyway topping out with GF/PF losses

or you can be a Carl, GC, Ess, Melbourne and spend 15 years lost and rudderless.

Cats have given their fans almost 20 years of success, back to the 04 PF all based on smart drafting and trading. They never "hit the draft" and from memory I think pick 7 is the earliest pick they ever used.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

They had a good crack at trying to win a premiership with an older list over the past few years, despite not completing the final hurdle. No shame in that, but now is the time to bite the proverbial bullet and commit to a rebuild.