Geelong - Too old, too slow?

[Art Vandelay_]

It works both ways. Doesn't help your cause if you're every bit as abusive (if not more so) yourself.

One guaranteed way to be abused by some Geelong posters - dare to suggest that the club is fallible and has made mistakes. Or that maybe every recruiting decision isn't ideal.

Odd given both of us have listed areas the club is fallible in this discussion. Or was the mention of midfield fragility lost in the ether?

Just doesn’t make the comment from a serial thread ‘bump’ contributor any less nonsense. The topic is about being too old and too slow, yes we have old players but at times this season 1/3 of the side has been 23 and under. And being slow isn’t a major reason we lost on the weekend, or why we lost to Hawthorn or Sydney. Same ol same ol of getting smashed in the midfield… and some scoring inaccuracy.

Clark may do alright at Freo but suspect here he’d still be in the vfl. We don’t need hbf/wing players. So guess it was a poor draft selection as he didn’t fit a need, and yes defensively poor.

 

[Ash1337]

Geelong is competitive because of their experience players being able to pick players out and position themselves. Along with their competitive marking, defensive workrate, low turnover. What gets them undone is because they're slower than other teams. Dangerfield, Hawkins, Selwood Duncan, Dahlhaus, Touhy, etc all cooked but they get by because they were all stars in their prime and so they're still at least serviceable and can still shine at times. Like Mundy at freo can be still good serviceable. Wouldn't be surprise they go full rebuild next season.

 

[unplugged]

Geelong is competitive because of their experience players being able to pick players out and position themselves. Along with their competitive marking, defensive workrate, low turnover. What gets them undone is because they're slower than other teams. Dangerfield, Hawkins, Selwood Duncan, Dahlhaus, Touhy, etc all cooked but they get by because they were all stars in their prime and so they're still at least serviceable and can still shine at times. Like Mundy at freo can be still good serviceable. Wouldn't be surprise they go full rebuild next season.

Don't count on it. Been waiting for Geelong to rebuild for about 6 years

 

[PhatBoy]

Geelong is competitive because of their experience players being able to pick players out and position themselves. Along with their competitive marking, defensive workrate, low turnover. What gets them undone is because they're slower than other teams. Dangerfield, Hawkins, Selwood Duncan, Dahlhaus, Touhy, etc all cooked but they get by because they were all stars in their prime and so they're still at least serviceable and can still shine at times. Like Mundy at freo can be still good serviceable. Wouldn't be surprise they go full rebuild next season.

Hawkins is the best key forward in the competition and has been for 4 years. Cooked - f*** that’s a stupid word - is not how I would describe him. The rest of the post is generally fairly spot on

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Hawkins is the best key forward in the competition and has been for 4 years. Cooked - f*** that’s a stupid word - is not how I would describe him. The rest of the post is generally fairly spot on

Probably could play for another two years after this. Showing no signs of slowing down atm.

 

[Romeoh1]

Hawkins is the best key forward in the competition and has been for 4 years. Cooked - f*** that’s a stupid word - is not how I would describe him. The rest of the post is generally fairly spot on

Like a fine wine!

 

[My Tilly]

Hawkins is the best key forward in the competition and has been for 4 years. Cooked - f*** that’s a stupid word - is not how I would describe him. The rest of the post is generally fairly spot on

The Hawkins we are seeing now is great.
The Hawkins we often see in the finals is a much different player.

 

[PhatBoy]

The Hawkins we are seeing now is great.
The Hawkins we often see in the finals is a much different player.

That goes for literally everyone. He’s still contributed 23 goals in his last 10 finals and games in which hes actually had a decent supply but failed have been limited to the grand final and the Port game where he kicked 0.5

He’s on the smaller scale of our issues

 

[My Tilly]

That goes for literally everyone.

No it doesn't.
Roughead averaged 2.2 goals in finals. Pavlich averaged 2.4 goals in finals. Fevola averaged 2.8 goals in finals.
Lynch averages 2 goals in finals. Franklin's averages 2.9 goals in finals. Kennedy averages 2.4 goals in finals. Darling averages 2 goals in finals.

Geelong have a slight issue at the moment.
Both their key forwards are two of the most dominant in the game but when they play finals, there is a noticeable drop off. They seem to freeze in the moment.
Hawkins averages 1.6 goals a final.
Cameron is not much better at 1.7 goals.

 

[PhatBoy]

No it doesn't.
Roughead averaged 2.2 goals in finals. Pavlich averaged 2.4 goals in finals. Fevola averaged 2.8 goals in finals.
Lynch averages 2 goals in finals. Franklin's averages 2.9 goals in finals. Kennedy averages 2.4 goals in finals. Darling averages 2 goals in finals.

Geelong have a slight issue at the moment.
Both their key forwards are two of the most dominant in the game but when they play finals, there is a noticeable drop off. They seem to freeze in the moment.
Hawkins averages 1.6 goals a final.
Cameron is not much better at 1.7 goals.

Oh they’re all current cats players are they.

 

[My Tilly]

Oh they’re all current cats players are they.

No but you need to stop with this notion that Hawkins is in a league of his own. It's nonsense.
If the bloke can't do it when the club needs him the most, he's not ahead of those who have the same amount of limited opportunities and make them count.

Great home & away player. Average finals player.

 

[PhatBoy]

No but you need to stop with this notion that Hawkins is in a league of his own. It's nonsense.
If the bloke can't do it when the club needs him the most, he's not ahead of those who have the same amount of limited opportunities and make them count.

Great home & away player. Average finals player.

Like in a grand final when he breaks the game open or a sudden death final when he kicks 4, 4 and 5 like he has each of the last three finals campaigns etc etc.
He also kicked 16 goals in his first 13 finals. Since then in 8 seasons he has averaged 2 a game which while not amazing is also similar to the numbers posted by the players you mentioned.

He can do it, and has done it. Like literally every Geelong player he’s also had games where he has failed. Unlike a lot of his teammates, he doesn’t have a great deal of control in some of those matches because he can’t impact the scoreboard if the ball is barely getting to him. There are games where he HAS had those opportunities - the grand final and the port final come to mind. There are others where he has not.

As stated prior, he is not at the primary end of where our finals concerns lay.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

That goes for literally everyone. He’s still contributed 23 goals in his last 10 finals and games in which hes actually had a decent supply but failed have been limited to the grand final and the Port game where he kicked 0.5

He’s on the smaller scale of our issues

That’s 2.3 per game in his last 10 finals.

Career average of 2.2 per game.
Classic Bob fail.

 

[Partridge]

That’s 2.3 per game in his last 10 finals.

Career average of 2.2 per game.
Classic Bob fail.

Tom Hawkins has played 29 finals for 48 goals. Average of 1.65 goals per final.

The statement was quite literally "Hawkins averages 1.6 goals a final."

But that's a fail because why exactly?

 

[My Tilly]

That’s 2.3 per game in his last 10 finals.

Career average of 2.2 per game.
Classic Bob fail.

You don't have your friends backing you up in here now.

I can cherry pick any time frame from a players career and it will sound semi decent.
Let's look at Gary Rohan shall we.
2016 - 2019, 7 finals and 7 goals. That's a goal per game
Much better looking than his 16 goals from 23 total finals played.

Now back to Hawkins.
Let's look at when he truly became a powerhouse.
2012 - Present, 20 finals matches for 101 marks & 36 goals.

Now if my math is correct Doctor Gero, NSFB or whatever name you now go by, that is 5 marks & 1.8 goals per final. Well and truly below his home & away weekly averages and that's when he broke out to become a top 10 power forward in the game.

 

[PhatBoy]

You don't have your friends backing you up in here now.

I can cherry pick any time frame from a players career and it will sound semi decent.
Let's look at Gary Rohan shall we.
2016 - 2019, 7 finals and 7 goals. That's a goal per game
Much better looking than his 16 goals from 23 total finals played.

Now back to Hawkins.
Let's look at when he truly became a powerhouse.
2012 - Present, 20 finals matches for 101 marks & 36 goals per game.

Now if my math is correct Doctor Gero, NSFB or whatever name you now go by, that is 5 marks & 1.8 goals per final. Well and truly below his home & away weekly averages.

It’s not cherry picking stop labelling everything as a f****en conspiracy theory whenever anyone tries to have a normal, factual, non-tinfoil f***en hat related talk about something Geelong related, just for once.


Tom Hawkins is a rarity in that he has played finals virtually his entire career. His ‘finals career’ has spanned his youth and inexperience, his footing-finding period where he was starting to become a factor albeit a somewhat inconsistent one, and his golden period where as alluded to he has been among the best, or clearly THE best forward in the game.

During the era which has Cats fans’ on edge, the last 5-6 years in which most of our flag heroes have disappeared and we have been in the mix without winning anything, ALL our players have been responsible for our finals record. Hawkins included. However for every poor game he has played, there are another two games where he has been among the best on the field OR he simply hasn’t had any chance to impact the game because the rest of the team has been belted and the ball has hardly been at his end of the field.

Has he let himself down on occasion? Absolutely. He’s played a couple of really poor finals and got himself rubbed out of another one through ill discipline.

Is he one of the primary causes of our finals issues since the team started to turn over? No, he is not.

 

[WillHayward]

Geelong don't have a single 27yo on their list. You'd think that is the core age.

One bloke aged 25 (O'Connor).
One bloke aged 28 (Bews).
Zero aged 22.

 

[PhatBoy]

Geelong don't have a single 27yo on their list. You'd think that is the core age.

One bloke aged 25 (O'Connor).
One bloke aged 28 (Bews).
Zero aged 22.

Was there a reason you didn’t mention the two 26 year olds

 

[My Tilly]

It’s not cherry picking stop labelling everything as a f****en conspiracy theory whenever anyone tries to have a normal, factual, non-tinfoil f***en hat related talk about something Geelong related, just for once.

So I give you actual statistics and you now fire back with obscenities.
Exactly what is factual about ignoring his finals record?
This isn't a Jack Darling type we are talking about here. This is a guy who stands 198cm tall and weighs in at 105kg. He has often been bigger and stronger than any direct opponent he has ever had to face.

Tom Hawkins is a rarity in that he has played finals virtually his entire career. His ‘finals career’ has spanned his youth and inexperience, his footing-finding period where he was starting to become a factor albeit a somewhat inconsistent one, and his golden period where as alluded to he has been among the best, or clearly THE best forward in the game.

Hawkins did not feature in any finals during 2007-2008.
He had already spent three years on our list before playing regular footy in 2009.

Hate to break it you but many key forwards begun playing finals football the moment they started.
Hawkins is not a rarity at all. This is where I think you forget about the history of the game.

OR he simply hasn’t had any chance to impact the game because the rest of the team has been belted and the ball has hardly been at his end of the field.

Has he let himself down on occasion? Absolutely. He’s played a couple of really poor finals and got himself rubbed out of another one through ill discipline.

Is he one of the primary causes of our finals issues since the team started to turn over? No, he is not.

If we were only talking a handful of finals appearances (Matty Richardson for example) then sure, you could make a case that the outcome of the match signifanctly contributed to the players performance but we are talking 29 finals matches. That is more than enough of a sample size to gauge what happens to certain guys under the brightest lights of all.

And I never argued Hawkins is the primary cause of our finals issues. I am just telling you he is an average finals performer and it's up to Tom to change all that.
Had a dynamic partner to alleviate a lot of the pressures last year but went missing in weeks 1 & 3.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You don't have your friends backing you up in here now.

I can cherry pick any time frame from a players career and it will sound semi decent.
Let's look at Gary Rohan shall we.
2016 - 2019, 7 finals and 7 goals. That's a goal per game
Much better looking than his 16 goals from 23 total finals played.

Now back to Hawkins.
Let's look at when he truly became a powerhouse.
2012 - Present, 20 finals matches for 101 marks & 36 goals.

Now if my math is correct Doctor Gero, NSFB or whatever name you now go by, that is 5 marks & 1.8 goals per final. Well and truly below his home & away weekly averages and that's when he broke out to become a top 10 power forward in the game.

Don’t need friends here, the only reason you get so little back from me is trolls are protected on the geelong board.

Recent finals are absolutely more important than stuff ages back. His last 10 finals has 3 hauls of 4 goals and 1 of 5. So hardly as if you’re raising a problem that presently plagues Hawkins now is it.

Lastly I talk down to you as you haven’t earned the respect to spoken to as an equal, you do nothing but bad mouth and shitcan the club you purport to love, as we can see here that includes club legends that everyone else speaks about with reverence.

You’d cop less backlash if you on occasion actually said something positive, not with a backhander attached to it. But that won’t happen now will it Bob, you can’t bring yourself to issue a compliment to the GFC.

 

[PhatBoy]

So I give you actual statistics and you now fire back with obscenities.
Exactly what is factual about ignoring his finals record?
This isn't a Jack Darling type we are talking about here. This is a guy who stands 198cm tall and weighs in at 105kg. He has often been bigger and stronger than any direct opponent he has ever had to face.



Hawkins did not feature in any finals during 2007-2008.
He had already spent three years on our list before playing regular footy in 2009.

Hate to break it you but many key forwards begun playing finals football the moment they started.
Hawkins is not a rarity at all. This is where I think you forget about the history of the game.



If we were only talking a handful of finals appearances (Matty Richardson for example) then sure, you could make a case that the outcome of the match signifanctly contributed to the players performance but we are talking 29 finals matches. That is more than enough of a sample size to gauge what happens to certain guys under the brightest lights of all.

And I never argued Hawkins is the primary cause of our finals issues. I am just telling you he is an average finals performer and it's up to Tom to change all that.
Had a dynamic partner to alleviate a lot of the pressures last year but went missing in weeks 1 & 3.

No, I responded with obscenities because as soon as someone gave you some numbers from a relevant period you started down the cherry picking accusation path.


Yes he is a rarity because he’s played finals in 12 out of 13 seasons.

Thanks for letting me know he didn’t play finals in 07-08. I would never have been able to interpret the complex layout of AFL Tables without your help

 

[My Tilly]

I talk down to you as you haven’t earned the respect to spoken to as an equal

lol you are such a self entitled individual
Never change.

No, I responded with obscenities because as soon as someone gave you some numbers from a relevant period you started down the cherry picking accusation path.

So basically you want to ignore reality and only focus on the last 10 finals matches he has played?

 

[PhatBoy]

lol you are such a self entitled individual



So basically you want to ignore reality and only look at the last 10 finals matches played?

No I want to address the issue at hand which is why the current side doesn’t succeed in finals. What the f*** does Hawkins’ finals record from 8-9 years ago have to do with that?

 

[PhatBoy]

If a side kept losing finals cricket matches in some hypothetical ODI league year after year and one of their star players was averaging 40 in those finals matches but his overall finals average was 33 due to a sequence 7-10 years prior would he become the focus of the current side’s failings?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

lol you are such a self entitled individual
Never change.



So basically you want to ignore reality and only focus on the last 10 finals matches he has played?

You reap what you sow Robert.

Always concerned with point scoring over discussions years prior by reminding people of wrong viewpoints, which you yourself have plenty as well.
Always concerned with shitting over the club you claim to love.

Never happy when said behaviour is questioned.
You were good value until 2014 finals, got bundled out meekly and you've been off your rocker ever since.

What the f*** does Hawkins’ finals record from 8-9 years ago have to do with that?

Nothing at all.

People of that persuasion also try to tell all and sundry some of our players are old and cooked.
Selwood being one, he isn't judged as such based off his whole career output now is he. It's based of recent season(s).

But Hawkins performances in finals cannot be similarly based off recent season(s).
Double standards.