Preview Guide to the preseason and rookie draft - Collingwood

[Knightmare]

Collingwood guide to the preseason and rookie drafts.

--Collingwood are looking at—
One mature ager: Kane Mitchell, Sam Dwyer and Kyle Martin have all been mentioned.
Kane Mitchell: WAFL star and winner of the Sandover Medal in 2012 so the production and playing ability is there. Really elite endurance runner who finds plenty of the footy. Questions surrounding footskills, very limited best 22 potential and looks like a depth only option and he is another sub 180cm type who is another short, combo midfielder without elite inside ball winning ability or elite footskills so he does very much replicate what we already have. He’ll give our VFL side a boost though and increase our finals chances.

Sam Dwyer: Elite VFL midfielder who like with Mitchell would give our midfield a significant boost at VFL level. Probably a touch better inside but then also offers us something we don’t have with Dwyer’s ability to deliver by foot to forwards elite. He’s also very capable of going forward, working into space and getting plenty of marks forward of centre providing a dangerous options. Like with Mitchell I don’t see who he goes past of our senior players but of the two Dwyer is the better fit as that something a little different to what we have, though like Mitchell again he is another of those sub 180cm midfielders we have so many of.

Kyle Martin: Of the three mature agers we have been linked to Martin I feel is the better choice if available and if Essendon don’t take him before we get the chance to call his name. Of the three he is clearly the superior stoppage player with that genuine inside ability and of the three is the only one with best 22 potential, though more likely until he is, he’ll be a depth option and helping the VFL side. I’ve also been impressed with his tackling game and ability off a forward flank with his ability to hit the scoreboard at times and can play some outside. Footskills are a slight question with his delivery at times inconsistent but I feel that can be ironed out and has shown some good finishing ability in a similar way to Dayne Beams from 50 and is more that finisher than playmaker in that sense.


Some other draft prospects who have been linked to Collingwood:
Andrew Boston: Was heavily linked to us at the time of the national draft. Midfielder with some real class with ball in hand and very impressive footskills with that ability on both sides and ability to hit a target. Outside of his ability with ball in hand I have some questions about what else he can do and with Broomhead I’m not sure we necessarily need him so it will be interesting to see whether we still take him in the preseason draft or whether one of the QLD clubs zone him as a rookie.

Jason Pongracic: Strong bodied inside midfielder who is that inside machine but also has impressive footskills and some marking ability. Has played most of the season as a strong marking forward as he has struggled with injury this season limiting his conditioning and ability to push into the midfield, but long term he should develop into that stronger bodied inside midfielder which is probably something we could do with.

Emmanuel Irra: Raw product but intriguing with his speed and evasiveness as well as really outstanding footskills. Could have some potential on a wing or back flank and has a strong body for a more outside type but will need to develop his ball winning ability and endurance to become a more consistent performer as he is more someone who you see highlights of in flashes at this stage. With limited outside pace and footskills probably something our list could do with more of.

Tim Knowles: Late bloomer and is that one year older but in the one game I’ve seen was very impressive and as Paul Seedsman did a couple of years ago in that Young Guns game, Knowles also caught the eye with his strong performance. He has some Scott Pendlebury as that tall midfielder with rare agility and evasiveness with that feeling of having more time than the next player. Still has some way to go but you can never have too many quality tall midfielders.

Dayle Garlett: Probably one of everyone’s favourites in this draft and a guy I would have taken in the national draft in the second round being a clear top 10 talent in this draft and someone who could be a best 22 player for any team from next year through the midfield or up forward. Was heavily linked to Collingwood pre-draft but the sense is that we probably pass with the club under Nathan Buckley looking to bring in the highest character people into the club. He’s still a heck of a talent though and as someone who could play from season one to a high level I’d love to see us take a chance on with all other clubs, Essendon included looking set to pass on the kid.

Likely with at least one of the selections Derek Hine pulls out some unexpected surprises and players who haven’t been talked about or at least in relation to Collingwood specifically but these are more the ones who have been linked to us through the media and other channels.


--Will take--
Ben Hudson – will be that depth ruckman behind Jolly with the purpose of being ready if required for finals footy. The other value with Hudson is in a mentor sense to help Witts and Grundy with their development.

Ben Richmond – tall basketball convert. Will play key forward. He’s a high motor, high leaping type but is very thin and will need plenty of time. Quick learner from reports but I suspect he will start the season relatively slowly and get better as the season progresses so don’t expect immediate results.



-- The order I’d personally take into the PSD + Rookie drafts (I’m also very happy to go the mature route with the objective as the club also have to make the VFL team better. Would not take more than one mid, one defender though with the rest to be younger)
-- Immediate impact recruits --
1. Dayle Garlett (Special Mid/Fwd) – can reserve for later selection with clubs set to pass.
2. Jason Pongracic (Power Mid/Fwd)
3. Leigh Osborne (Offensive back flanker)
4. Daniel Caire (Heath Shaw type defender with impressive two way game)
5. Ben Duscher (Best state league mid and elite ball user) – will be overlooked and can pick late rookie draft
6. Kyle Martin (Strong bodied inside mid)
7. Myles Sewell (Defensive midfielder of the Andrew Carrazzo variety, or that’s the role I see for him)
8. Josh Toy (Elite kicking back flanker) – with heart problems will likely go undrafted but he is such a perfect fit for our team I absolutely can’t not list the guy as we need that elite kicking backman.
9. Liam Jurrah (No medium forward in the AFL is more of a goalscoring threat) – has expressed that he only wants to play in SA next year which is a shame because if he wanted he could probably make our best 22.
10. Sam Dwyer (Small, elite ball using mid)
-- Give them a year and they can find a role --
11. Tom Langdon (Big improver as a defender. Tallish and has nice pace and footskills)
12. Zac Williams (Strong inside midfielder and a strong inside extractor type)
13. Sam Heavyside (Small midfielder but quality inside mid with a very impressive inside game)
14. Harley Montgomery (Small defender with strong shutdown game and can play some mid)
15. Anthony Tipungwuti (Small, evasive crumbing forward with real pace. Can also play some back)
16. Tom Knowles (Mentioned earlier and has some Pendlebury as that late blooming tall mid)
17. Louis Herbert (Athletic medium forward with some marking ability and can hit the scoreboard)
18. Cameron Banfield (Skilled utility who has played back flank this season)
19. Jacob Ballard (Ball winning defender/midfielder with some 1v1 ability)
20. Nathan Stark (Small, lively inside midfield who just has it. No one draws frees better, Selwood’s included)

Hudson and Richmond I’m very happy with though and I wouldn’t change those selections with my ratings above to suggest who I’d fill the rest of the selections out with both PSD and rookie.

 

[the mighty T]

Irra, Boston and Pongracic would be good for us I think and I still would look at Garlett even though it won't happen.

Something that's bugged me though: through all this talk of rookie listing mature state league players, why aren't we looking at Sundberg? We know what his production is like, he's already part of the club to an extent and is familiar with our coaching and list.

 

[blaze036]

Irra, Boston and Pongracic would be good for us I think and I still would look at Garlett even though it won't happen.

Something that's bugged me though: through all this talk of rookie listing mature state league players, why aren't we looking at Sundberg? We know what his production is like, he's already part of the club to an extent and is familiar with our coaching and list.

Sundberg had a shocker 2012, has missed tonnes of footy lately and when he has played it has been average. No chance he is being looked at imo.

 

[Knightmare]

Irra, Boston and Pongracic would be good for us I think and I still would look at Garlett even though it won't happen.

Something that's bugged me though: through all this talk of rookie listing mature state league players, why aren't we looking at Sundberg? We know what his production is like, he's already part of the club to an extent and is familiar with our coaching and list.

Sundberg played some strong footy in 2010+2011 but struggled in 2012 after coming back from injury. I suspect in 2013 he'll get back to his stronger footy.

My sense with Sundberg has always been that he would be depth only, though his versatility makes him solid cover and he could be a role filler if we needed it.

On another team list certainly he could find a role but just not sure who he plays ahead of on our list. And as someone who would be on our VFL team anyway why draft what you already have? Better off bringing in a Kyle Martin or Myles Sewell through the midfield who are possibly slightly higher level talents and add that extra difference maker who can make us stronger.

 

[the mighty T]

True blaze, but his 2011 in particular was stellar and had him on the radar of many a club. Averaged 23 disposals and a heap of clearances.. Wouldn't mind him for depth if ball went down again.

I get what you're saying knight, but if these blokes are at such a higher level than Sundberg, why have they not bwen picked up prior? Myles Sewell in his Liston trophy year was passed on, despite being the best player in the vfl. I understand what you mean, but whose to say that their impact would be any greater? Who do guys like Kane Mitchell, who we're also linked to, go past on our list? I wouldn't say he's any better cover than Sundberg.

 

[blaze036]

True blaze, but his 2011 in particular was stellar and had him on the radar of many a club. Averaged 23 disposals and a heap of clearances.. Wouldn't mind him for depth if ball went down again.

I get what you're saying knight, but if these blokes are at such a higher level than Sundberg, why have they not bwen picked up prior? Myles Sewell in his Liston trophy year was passed on, despite being the best player in the vfl. I understand what you mean, but whose to say that their impact would be any greater? Who do guys like Kane Mitchell, who we're also linked to, go past on our list? I wouldn't say he's any better cover than Sundberg.

I think sundberg would have to put in 2 years at a minimum of his 2011 form in a row to be picked up, his 2012 was terribly disappointing. If he has a really strong 2013 he may be a chance, but i think he will need to have two stellar years in a row to get drafted

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Haven't heard much about Martin but sounds like he could be a good option, a little older, 21 I think, a good size seems almost ready to go. Apparently Essendon were keen before ND so may swoop.

Agree on Toy Knighter, would give him another chance on a needs basis.

As a Ballarat person I'm also interested in this draft from a more general perspective:

Whether Nick Rippon will go, St. Pat's already with 5 drafted I think 6 would make it a schools record (tied with Assumption in 2005 with 5 drafted the year Nate Brown was). Rippon is an excellent running mid but probably too small for us (the current curse it seems).

Another boy from round my home town Myles Sewell (Brad's brother). I could not understand how he missed a couple of years ago. Was it something to do with his physique and potential upside? Bit of a mystery. Interesting to see him on your list Knighter.

And of course Adam Goodes brother Brett a 'good' chance to go this time late in his career.

For us I hope for Pogracic or Martin; then Osborne or Toy. All about needs.

Garlett is tantalising but I've signed up to the character and culture ethos and I think you either have to buy in completely or forget it.

I also reckon Hine will pull out some name we've never heard of. Getting used to it now!

Nice work again Knighter.

 

[Knightmare]

True blaze, but his 2011 in particular was stellar and had him on the radar of many a club. Averaged 23 disposals and a heap of clearances.. Wouldn't mind him for depth if ball went down again.

I get what you're saying knight, but if these blokes are at such a higher level than Sundberg, why have they not bwen picked up prior? Myles Sewell in his Liston trophy year was passed on, despite being the best player in the vfl. I understand what you mean, but whose to say that their impact would be any greater? Who do guys like Kane Mitchell, who we're also linked to, go past on our list? I wouldn't say he's any better cover than Sundberg.

You are right about 2011. Sundberg played some very strong football and was better than many of our AFL listed players.

Sundberg is not many steps behind and is really in that top state league group where an AFL club could absolutely take a chance on him, just likely as with Ben Duscher not this year having had those injury difficulties and not playing his best footy relative to what he can produce at his best. Same could be said about Sam Dwyer who was also really struggling this season and has played stronger footy in 2010+2011 as with the others but VFL trio should all be healthy for next year and better than ever.

Myles Sewell had a couple of below average years for a while there where he seemed to have lost confidence but clubs just feel with him that he is too light bodied, not quick enough and not good enough by foot and for that reason was never drafted. I see him a little differently and I don't see these those massive deficiencies with these only being relative weak points. He has very impressive endurance, has such a smart game and finds plenty of it while playing a really impressive two way game with that ability to play a shutdown role as required and impressive tackling ability.

Each players comes with their relative weaknesses and with mature agers they are mostly seen on a role player basis. You take them on who they are today and whether based on who they if they can find a role. Are they good enough to be best 22? Are they a fit for this team? These are the general thoughts around these types.

Myles Sewell I bring up because that defensive midfielder is something we lack and is incredibly low risk as he helps us at VFL level but also at AFL level if given the opportunity is good enough to hold his own and play a different role that we probably haven't had a capable player able to play previously. He can pretty easily play an Andrew Carrazzo type role where he shuts a guy down, limit their impact and still find plenty of the footy.

 

[Knightmare]

Haven't heard much about Martin but sounds like he could be a good option, a little older, 21 I think, a good size seems almost ready to go. Apparently Essendon were keen before ND so may swoop.

Agree on Toy Knighter, would give him another chance on a needs basis.

As a Ballarat person I'm also interested in this draft from a more general perspective:

Whether Nick Rippon will go, St. Pat's already with 5 drafted I think 6 would make it a schools record (tied with Assumption in 2005 with 5 drafted the year Nate Brown was). Rippon is an excellent running mid but probably too small for us (the current curse it seems).

Another boy from round my home town Myles Sewell (Brad's brother). I could not understand how he missed a couple of years ago. Was it something to do with his physique and potential upside? Bit of a mystery. Interesting to see him on your list Knighter.

And of course Adam Goodes brother Brett a 'good' chance to go this time late in his career.

For us I hope for Pogracic or Martin; then Osborne or Toy. All about needs.

Garlett is tantalising but I've signed up to the character and culture ethos and I think you either have to buy in completely or forget it.

I also reckon Hine will pull out some name we've never heard of. Getting used to it now!

Nice work again Knighter.

You are right about Essendon liking Martin. They probably take him PSD with them likely to pass on Garlett, or if not then strong chance as a rookie.

Toy is a really rare talent and it's a shame that he has the heart problems, but just such a unique fit for our team that he is hard not to look at if there is any chance that he can play football to any extent.

With clubs likely to select fewer players this year with the reduction of the rookie list and many clubs looking to recycle talent it will only be those very best of the rest who go so it's against the odds Rippon gets selected. Had a very impressive season in the TAC and has a strong chance of going on to have success at VFL level if he wants it.

With Sewell it was as an inside type clubs didn't like that he is a slighter body (185cm, 77kg). Skills have limitations and is not super quick.

Brett Goodes can play and it will be interesting to see if the WBD give him a shot. I'd take Ben Duscher first, but with such a loaded midfield it was never going to be easy to find room.

I'd be very happy with Pongracic/Martin and Osborne/Toy. Addresses needs and good quality talents in all cases.

No doubt Hine will take someone none of us were expecting. It's just never possible to hear about every player on each clubs shortlists and no doubt this psd/rookie draft will as is the case every year have it's surprises.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Thanks mate, crystal clear as always. An interesting assessment of Sewell as well - I guess it shows that sometimes players are more than the sum of their parts and perhaps sometimes they do get over-analysed. Part of being a good footballer is sometimes just instinct and vision and knowing where to put yourself.

I do think the big thing we need to add to our midfield is hard, effective tackling. Any mid with a decent tank who can lay a tackle would be on my wish list. Based on your insights I'd probably add Sewell to that list. Interesting times. Looking forward to what will hopefully be a satisfying wrap to a pretty good trade period for us on Tuesday.

 

[Knightmare]

So far so good with the free agent period, trade week and national draft all excellent so here's hoping we continue to add good talent this Tuesday.

 

[the mighty T]

You are right about 2011. Sundberg played some very strong football and was better than many of our AFL listed players.

Sundberg is not many steps behind and is really in that top state league group where an AFL club could absolutely take a chance on him, just likely as with Ben Duscher not this year having had those injury difficulties and not playing his best footy relative to what he can produce at his best. Same could be said about Sam Dwyer who was also really struggling this season and has played stronger footy in 2010+2011 as with the others but VFL trio should all be healthy for next year and better than ever.

Myles Sewell had a couple of below average years for a while there where he seemed to have lost confidence but clubs just feel with him that he is too light bodied, not quick enough and not good enough by foot and for that reason was never drafted. I see him a little differently and I don't see these those massive deficiencies with these only being relative weak points. He has very impressive endurance, has such a smart game and finds plenty of it while playing a really impressive two way game with that ability to play a shutdown role as required and impressive tackling ability.

Each players comes with their relative weaknesses and with mature agers they are mostly seen on a role player basis. You take them on who they are today and whether based on who they if they can find a role. Are they good enough to be best 22? Are they a fit for this team? These are the general thoughts around these types.

Myles Sewell I bring up because that defensive midfielder is something we lack and is incredibly low risk as he helps us at VFL level but also at AFL level if given the opportunity is good enough to hold his own and play a different role that we probably haven't had a capable player able to play previously. He can pretty easily play an Andrew Carrazzo type role where he shuts a guy down, limit their impact and still find plenty of the footy.

Thanks for the detailed reply knight, really appreciate it. You make valid points re Sundberg and not being drafted this time around. I hope he can become that player he was in 2011 and really help that midfield. Personally I can see a lot of benefit to someone like Sewell on the list. Either way I hope we can add to the strength of the vfl team and make it a more competitive force.

Also, any word if clubs are interested in Marvin Warrel?

 

[Knightmare]

Thanks for the detailed reply knight, really appreciate it. You make valid points re Sundberg and not being drafted this time around. I hope he can become that player he was in 2011 and really help that midfield. Personally I can see a lot of benefit to someone like Sewell on the list. Either way I hope we can add to the strength of the vfl team and make it a more competitive force.

Also, any word if clubs are interested in Marvin Warrel?

St Kilda liked Warrell going into the national draft but unclear whether they take him with other forwards added and Adam Cockie a highly likely selection whether it be as a PSD selection or as a rookie.

Other than St Kilda not clear who if any clubs are willing to select Warrell.

Warrell does have something though. Endurance is a long, long way off but the sheer pace and tackling he brings to the game is really something and he could be something close to what we hoped Brad Dick would become as that speedy energy, tackling type forward. As perhaps a linebreaking back flanker might intrigue as that Chris Yarran type with that pace but as mentioned before endurance needs work before he can think about this type of role.
One to consider if there as we do lack that pace and he can give us something different.

 

[Snoop Dog]

-- Immediate impact recruits --
1. Dayle Garlett (Special Mid/Fwd) – can reserve for later selection with clubs set to pass.
2. Jason Pongracic (Power Mid/Fwd)
3. Leigh Osborne (Offensive back flanker)
4. Daniel Caire (Heath Shaw type defender with impressive two way game)
5. Ben Duscher (Best state league mid and elite ball user) – will be overlooked and can pick late rookie draft
6. Kyle Martin (Strong bodied inside mid)
7. Myles Sewell (Defensive midfielder of the Andrew Carrazzo variety, or that’s the role I see for him)
8. Josh Toy (Elite kicking back flanker) – with heart problems will likely go undrafted but he is such a perfect fit for our team I absolutely can’t not list the guy as we need that elite kicking backman.
9. Liam Jurrah (No medium forward in the AFL is more of a goalscoring threat) – has expressed that he only wants to play in SA next year which is a shame because if he wanted he could probably make our best 22.
10. Sam Dwyer (Small, elite ball using mid)
-- Give them a year and they can find a role --
11. Tom Langdon (Big improver as a defender. Tallish and has nice pace and footskills)
12. Zac Williams (Strong inside midfielder and a strong inside extractor type)
13. Sam Heavyside (Small midfielder but quality inside mid with a very impressive inside game)
14. Harley Montgomery (Small defender with strong shutdown game and can play some mid)
15. Anthony Tipungwuti (Small, evasive crumbing forward with real pace. Can also play some back)
16. Tom Knowles (Mentioned earlier and has some Pendlebury as that late blooming tall mid)
17. Louis Herbert (Athletic medium forward with some marking ability and can hit the scoreboard)
18. Cameron Banfield (Skilled utility who has played back flank this season)
19. Jacob Ballard (Ball winning defender/midfielder with some 1v1 ability)
20. Nathan Stark (Small, lively inside midfield who just has it. No one draws frees better, Selwood’s included)

Good thread but have to disagree with some of those names.

Personally I cannot understand why you wouldnt have the two or three of the best state league players in 2012 on that list - Ross, nelson and Motlop. Ross is arguably the best state league player in the country and the only knock would be his durability. Surely they would be both ahead of Daniel Caire who I just cant have in front of those blokes as well as 1 or 2 others. Also cant understand why Rick Pettard is being spoken of more. I think he is the best AFL player still on the loose.

Re Toy he has not tested at all well with a couple of clubs in the off season and whilst likely Richmond will jump on him I wouldnt be lining up. I think the other thing is that his exposed form was poor. As a junior he was very good and I was a big fan but the jump up has exposed the poor kid a bit. I would take Marlop Motlop over him.

Re Jurrah - Not sure if you are argiung for him to be a selection or not but pls no. I would also argue Rick Pettard would be more damaging than he.

Re the kids no love for Ethan Gill, Nick Rodda, Laine Wilkins or Shannon Taylor?

ANyway pal give me your top 5! Mine would be;

Dayle Gartlett - An amazing talent and have seen many times. personally I would like the club to select Gartlett. Had some insight into his issues and they arent earth shattering. I think the club should be backing themselves to help him. Its only a rookie pick and the reality is you can take a chance with them. Only issue is impact on the rest of the group and IF there was trouble then you can always discipline (ie sack) him.

Jason Pongracic - Massive fan of the kid. Tough, aggressive and can play a couple of different roles. Lacks pace but smart like Porplyzia and should be backed in.

Ben Ross - I would take this kid in a heart beat but AFL clubs might be worried about his bodies durability. Notwithstanding he was the best player outside of the AFL this year and has more positional scope than Mitchell or Dwyer for mine. He can play in or out, has great foot speed and is a beaut user of the ball.

Ethan Gill - Tall fwd from Glenelg. Saw his debut game for Glenelg and he is very strong and very aggressive. Had a good year for Glenelg and shapes as a young bloke who could be groomed for CHF or CHB.

Shane Nelson or Kane Mitchell (but prefer SN) - Shane Nelson is better than Kane Mitchell at the same stage. Tests as well if not better than him on nearly every score and is easily a better ball user and small fwd. He is also 2-3 years younger. He would also be a massive chance to walk into our side and play an Andrew Gaff type role.

Others: Anthony Tipingwuti, Andrew Boston, Kane Mitchell, Sam Dwyer, Nick Hayes, Nick Rodda, Laine Wilikins, Breadon McLean, Shannon Taylor (no chance), Marlon Motlop (no chance), Patrick Wilson, Alex Howson.

What I think they will do - Ben Hudson, Kane Mitchell, Sam Dwyer, Peter Yagmoor and Andrew Boston.

 

[bren_gc]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but reading Hines rookie preview this morning he mentions that all players picked will have the ability to play AFL next year. So I'm assuming all will either be mature-age or at least strong bodied.
With that in mind I get the feeling that we are setting up for next years draft. From the little I've read it appears to be a strong draft, and with us only having 38 on our list next season I think it's perfect. We bring in 6 strong/mature rookies next year, get that year to look at them (on one year contracts) and then keep the 2 or 3 best prospects. Huddo will no doubt only play the 1 year and with another 2/3 rookie delistings that leaves space to use 2 of them in next years draft on primary list players. Add to that the obvious 2/3 retirements next year (BJ, Dids and Jolly) and we can attack next years draft with around 5 selections without delisting a single primary list player. Plus with those mentioned retirements we have freed up plenty of cap space for those 5 picks, plus some extra for any required contract extensions.

 

[the distributer]

Jurrah is the one who can help us the most obviously, if we could get him to come over i'd be rapt.

 

[the distributer]

IMO Jurrah has no issues with alcohol-drugs, i don't think the Dees had any concerns over his behavior-commitment either (other than the obvious incident) IMO if we think he's a chance of not going to jail and could talk him into coming over we should roll the dice, the potential upside for a small investment is massive.

Garlett on the other hand has been linked to alcohol-drugs, the pic of him titled ''cooked'' with pupils the size of dish plates isn't a great look, i'd pass on him.

 

[blaze036]

IMO Jurrah has no issues with alcohol-drugs, i don't think the Dees had any concerns over his behavior-commitment either (other than the obvious incident) IMO if we think he's a chance of not going to jail and could talk him into coming over we should roll the dice, the potential upside for a small investment is massive.

Garlett on the other hand has been linked to alcohol-drugs, the pic of him titled ''cooked'' with pupils the size of dish plates isn't a great look, i'd pass on him.

You'd take jurrah, someone who will be ON TRIAL for deadly assault with a weapon DURING the AFL season, and likely facing years imprisonment, but wouldn't take garlett because he got high and took a photo?

The damage jurrah would do to our brand is so huge its laughable to reasonably think we will take him, oh yeah, and the whole fact he might go to jail during the 2013 season.

 

[Knightmare]

Good thread but have to disagree with some of those names.

Personally I cannot understand why you wouldnt have the two or three of the best state league players in 2012 on that list - Ross, nelson and Motlop. Ross is arguably the best state league player in the country and the only knock would be his durability. Surely they would be both ahead of Daniel Caire who I just cant have in front of those blokes as well as 1 or 2 others. Also cant understand why Rick Pettard is being spoken of more. I think he is the best AFL player still on the loose.

Re Toy he has not tested at all well with a couple of clubs in the off season and whilst likely Richmond will jump on him I wouldnt be lining up. I think the other thing is that his exposed form was poor. As a junior he was very good and I was a big fan but the jump up has exposed the poor kid a bit. I would take Marlop Motlop over him.

Re Jurrah - Not sure if you are argiung for him to be a selection or not but pls no. I would also argue Rick Pettard would be more damaging than he.

Re the kids no love for Ethan Gill, Nick Rodda, Laine Wilkins or Shannon Taylor?

ANyway pal give me your top 5! Mine would be;

Dayle Gartlett - An amazing talent and have seen many times. personally I would like the club to select Gartlett. Had some insight into his issues and they arent earth shattering. I think the club should be backing themselves to help him. Its only a rookie pick and the reality is you can take a chance with them. Only issue is impact on the rest of the group and IF there was trouble then you can always discipline (ie sack) him.

Jason Pongracic - Massive fan of the kid. Tough, aggressive and can play a couple of different roles. Lacks pace but smart like Porplyzia and should be backed in.

Ben Ross - I would take this kid in a heart beat but AFL clubs might be worried about his bodies durability. Notwithstanding he was the best player outside of the AFL this year and has more positional scope than Mitchell or Dwyer for mine. He can play in or out, has great foot speed and is a beaut user of the ball.

Ethan Gill - Tall fwd from Glenelg. Saw his debut game for Glenelg and he is very strong and very aggressive. Had a good year for Glenelg and shapes as a young bloke who could be groomed for CHF or CHB.

Shane Nelson or Kane Mitchell (but prefer SN) - Shane Nelson is better than Kane Mitchell at the same stage. Tests as well if not better than him on nearly every score and is easily a better ball user and small fwd. He is also 2-3 years younger. He would also be a massive chance to walk into our side and play an Andrew Gaff type role.

Others: Anthony Tipingwuti, Andrew Boston, Kane Mitchell, Sam Dwyer, Nick Hayes, Nick Rodda, Laine Wilikins, Breadon McLean, Shannon Taylor (no chance), Marlon Motlop (no chance), Patrick Wilson, Alex Howson.

What I think they will do - Ben Hudson, Kane Mitchell, Sam Dwyer, Peter Yagmoor and Andrew Boston.

Ross I've liked for some time and felt he was stiff to get delisted. Could be worth a shot for a team as a rookie with his ball use excellent but not sure who he goes past. I'd rather a more inside type mid through the state leagues with Ross more outside which we have a surplus of.

Nelson much the same in that again not inside enough with that real inside grunt or shutdown type more what we need. Though again footskills sound, has pace and production has been great. Just with Nelson possibly a touch more outside who does he pass? I just don't see him as a fit for Collingwood.

Motlop while he can play and is a fit given needs I'm have doubts about committment. Talent there, no doubt and he can absolutely play but until I hear something clearly suggesting that his character fits our profiling I've got my doubts we taking him all that seriously.

Caire I like for his two way game. He provides run and carry, is a sound ball user but then also can play a strong shutdown role in the back half. He's more a role player but I've liked what I've seen and feel he is capable of making the transition as many of those SANFL defenders have.

Petterd I'm not so high on because he's hardly playing. Has never played more than 18 games in a season and has only had the two seasons with more than 10 games. Additionally he hasn't really improved as I'd like. I'm fine with our young forwards who are able to produce to a similar level but stay healthy. He might receive an opportunity for a club but I don't think he's as big a step up talent wise as people assume and I'd probably stick with our young forwards and Krakouer for now until he shows he can stay healthy and produce over a full season.

Toy I'm thinking probably gets overlooked entirely and I strongly doubt he is on our shortlist having not been linked to Collingwood in the slightest. I always felt in a weak Gold Coast team and playing shutdown roles more than he should that he got exposed but in a more offensive role off a back flank surrounded by a stronger defensive group I feel he could be much better utilised. What he is capable of physically is the unknown and up to the club to look at, and I suggest they don't see him being able to make a recovery but he is one due to his unique talents with his long penetrating kick and excellent decision making that I just can't not have him on that shortlist as he does have as much best 22 potential as any still available if up and going.

Jurrah I'd be taking over Petterd anyday. Both have talent but Jurrah averages 2.3 goals per game. Petterd only the one goal per game. Jurrah is that better goalscoring threat and this is more what we need in our situation as opposed to another pressure forward which we have enough of with Elliott, Sinclair and Mooney all fine. Cloke is that main goalscoring threat and then Lynch has the opportunity to also contribute in this way next season but after that it's really balanced goalscoring (not a bad thing and you can win this way) but Jurrah is another goal scoring threat makes for a different dynamic that could do more damage. My sense is that he doesn't have any interest in moving back to Victoria so we probably can't select him, but if he was open to the move back to Collingwood then I'd certainly be very open to bringing him in as I don't see him as the problem player people assume.

Gill has a strong body as a forward but the sense I get is that he gets overlooked. With Paine, Richmond and then Grundy likely to play forward we already enough talls and I have my doubts we look to bring in another speculative forward.

Rodda I've never been big on. Big bodied key defender. Has his fans but I don't see the attraction. He is a type who can play a role and at times provide some rebound but struggles against the taller forwards and can also get shown up by the quicker, more mobile forwards. Not sure who he passes with Reid/Keeffe/Brown/Hartley and even Gault as a key defender all better in my view. I liked Clurey in the national draft as a key defender because his talent in my view was that level above to the extent that he could pass Brown and possibly even Keeffe by which is why I was very open to taking him but our key defence depth is stocked full enough with plenty of depth but also best 22 quality with Gault also ready if required to play next year.

Wilkins has a load of talent but I see him as a Mitch Morton in that I'm not sure the committment is entirely there from what I've heard and he is more flashes but not a complete picture who will dominate against good competition. I don't like his game at all as a forward but on a wing as that tall outside mid with his pace and skill level I admit does intrigue to some extent and in that sense not someone I would entirely discount but I do rate others slightly higher. As a rookie worth a risk for a club though whether it be Collingwood or someone else.

Braedon McLean is an interesting one through the midfield but again probably some I like more, though I could see a club seriously considering him. Just as a mid unless they are a top 5, maybe top 10 remaining prospect for a mid I'd probably look mature age with the club looking to boost that VFL side and make it a genuine top 8 team.

Shannon Taylor I have my concerns about. This year he just hasn't seemed serious enough about his footy. Coming into the year I had him in my second round with his pace absolutely something else but I see him as Kirk Ugle without the committment.

Patrick Wilson as a back flanker is interesting. Production certainly there and is that endurance beast and one I could certainly see receiving an opportunity for those clever clubs who have done their scouting but as a backman I'd look more mature and having seen more of some of the Victorian backman I'd probably back them in first knowing their games better and having more confidence.

Howson has been excellent up forward in WA. Just the pressure game lacking. Might be a rookie chance for a club but with enough talls I'd not super keen to add more unless it's someone I see as a better talent than what we already have which I'm not prepaired to declare with Howson.


I've got that same list with likely none taken in the PSD. Then Boston (though if not taken in PSD then that complicates things and might not be there), K.Mitchell (highly likely), Dwyer (possible), Hudson (lock it in), Yagmoor (lock it in), Richmond (lock it in).


With Yagmoor, Richmond and Hudson all locked in I'd personally take:
RD 1 (In Mid). Pongracic/K.Martin/Duscher/Sewell/Dwyer/Z.Williams/Heavyside/Knowles
RD 2 (Backman). Osborne/Caire/Langdon/Montgomery/Banfield/Ballard
RD 3 (Best available). Whoever is highest on my list (with the criteria that no more than one mature mid and one mature defender)
RD 4 (Best available). Garlett (should be available)/whoever is highest on my list as stated in RD3.

Yagmoor I'd rather not take and would love to take another in his place but in our situation we just can't do that with Yagmoor having that extra year on his contract to run.

- I'll include in the knightsight v hinesight threat who I'd take at each selection given who is available but this is the general template I'd bring into the draft with the final selections being:
RD 5. Hudson
RD 6. Yagmoor
--
RD 7. Richmond (category 2 rookie)

 

[Knightmare]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but reading Hines rookie preview this morning he mentions that all players picked will have the ability to play AFL next year. So I'm assuming all will either be mature-age or at least strong bodied.
With that in mind I get the feeling that we are setting up for next years draft. From the little I've read it appears to be a strong draft, and with us only having 38 on our list next season I think it's perfect. We bring in 6 strong/mature rookies next year, get that year to look at them (on one year contracts) and then keep the 2 or 3 best prospects. Huddo will no doubt only play the 1 year and with another 2/3 rookie delistings that leaves space to use 2 of them in next years draft on primary list players. Add to that the obvious 2/3 retirements next year (BJ, Dids and Jolly) and we can attack next years draft with around 5 selections without delisting a single primary list player. Plus with those mentioned retirements we have freed up plenty of cap space for those 5 picks, plus some extra for any required contract extensions.

I think your spot on and I interpreted the article the very same way and I sense that we like next years draft a touch more in a depth sense.

This year we likely don't take the two psd selections so as to make the rookie list competitive with that whole group working for promotion with the two senior positions open from the start of the season. With likely a number of mature agers in there this could be fun to watch with some guys really just going for it which is a great dynamic.

IMO Jurrah has no issues with alcohol-drugs, i don't think the Dees had any concerns over his behavior-commitment either (other than the obvious incident) IMO if we think he's a chance of not going to jail and could talk him into coming over we should roll the dice, the potential upside for a small investment is massive.

Garlett on the other hand has been linked to alcohol-drugs, the pic of him titled ''cooked'' with pupils the size of dish plates isn't a great look, i'd pass on him.

With Jurrah there is some alcohol risk but drugs no issue.

In a behaviour sense as mentioned before I don't see Jurrah as a problem guy, it's just there is a cultural difference with his values somewhat different and this is the only thing you really need to work around with Jurrah, though I see him staying in SA.

The club probably see Garlett in a similar way.

 

[the distributer]

You'd take jurrah, someone who will be ON TRIAL for deadly assault with a weapon DURING the AFL season, and likely facing years imprisonment, but wouldn't take garlett because he got high and took a photo?

The damage jurrah would do to our brand is so huge its laughable to reasonably think we will take him, oh yeah, and the whole fact he might go to jail during the 2013 season.

If you read my post you would see i said (if there's a chance he wouldn't go to jail), as for Garlett, it's one thing to have drugs, but quite another to post it on FB whilst AFL recruiters are looking at you, that tells me he has the brain of a walnut and isn't worth consideration, was also expelled from the institute of sport, Jurrahs incident was more cultural as Knightmare stated, anyway i'd be willing to back in Jurrah over Garlett, even if we got burnt through a jail sentence. just IMO.

 

[Pies Tattoo Gun]

Long time lurker first time poster.. just wanted to compliment you KM on the outstanding work & info you provide to everyone in regards to players strengths,weaknesses, where you see them fitting, whether or not they can make the clubs best 22, etc.. it`s highly appreciated

I also wanted to just clarify something.. you`ve kept counting Ben Richmond as locked in as one of our picks he`s actually already on our list as a Category B rookie along with Hartley & Mooney.. Derek Hine has also said this morning we will be passing on our preseason draft picks & with our rookie list slate wiped empty at the end of the season with delistings plus the promotion of Marley Williams & carrying a senior list of 38 players we`ll have 6 picks in the rookie draft tomorrow and having publicly stated we`re re-committing to Yagmoor & want Ben Hudson we still have 4 live picks & 2 of those rookies will be nominated rookies we can play seniors at any time while the other 4 can fight to be promoted through the traditional ways of mid season elevation or long term injury..

My personal hopes with the 4 remaining spots is we pick up:
Kyle Martin/Jason Pongracic
Sam Dwyer
Emmanuel Irra/Marvin Warrell
Shane Nelson/Kane Mitchell/Dayle Garlett

 

[Knightmare]

Long time lurker first time poster.. just wanted to compliment you KM on the outstanding work & info you provide to everyone in regards to players strengths,weaknesses, where you see them fitting, whether or not they can make the clubs best 22, etc.. it`s highly appreciated

I also wanted to just clarify something.. you`ve kept counting Ben Richmond as locked in as one of our picks he`s actually already on our list as a Category B rookie along with Hartley & Mooney.. Derek Hine has also said this morning we will be passing on our preseason draft picks & with our rookie list slate wiped empty at the end of the season with delistings plus the promotion of Marley Williams & carrying a senior list of 38 players we`ll have 6 picks in the rookie draft tomorrow and having publicly stated we`re re-committing to Yagmoor & want Ben Hudson we still have 4 live picks & 2 of those rookies will be nominated rookies we can play seniors at any time while the other 4 can fight to be promoted through the traditional ways of mid season elevation or long term injury..

My personal hopes with the 4 remaining spots is we pick up:
Kyle Martin/Jason Pongracic
Sam Dwyer
Emmanuel Irra/Marvin Warrell
Shane Nelson/Kane Mitchell/Dayle Garlett

Thanks for the kind words.

You are correct about Richmond that he is category B having come from outside the traditional pathway and also correct about Harley and Mooney. And then 6 rookie selections with Richmond as that no.7.

It will be an interesting dynamic with so many players fighting for elevation. Will make for good competition and they'll all be hungry and fighting for elevation.

Not a bad list for those 4 remaining sports. When it gets this deep into the draft it's always going to be very difficult for anyone to reach consensus as to who is best available so it will be interesting to see who we take.

The only certainties are Hudson/Yagmoor/Richmond and a more mature, immediate theme with the majority of the remaining selections with the hope to boost that VFL team into the finals. Though a couple of surprises highly likely.

 

[Hardas]

Will read it all later, but can't go back to work without thanking you again, KM [and Snoopdog, for that matter] for your seemingly tireless efforts. I feel like we should be paying you!
Putting in all the effort initially, answering people's questions respecfully and dealing with all the various critical responses as well - SENSATIONAL!
Cheers, guys, it's very much appreciated.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Ross I've liked for some time and felt he was stiff to get delisted. Could be worth a shot for a team as a rookie with his ball use excellent but not sure who he goes past. I'd rather a more inside type mid through the state leagues with Ross more outside which we have a surplus of.

Nelson much the same in that again not inside enough with that real inside grunt or shutdown type more what we need. Though again footskills sound, has pace and production has been great. Just with Nelson possibly a touch more outside who does he pass? I just don't see him as a fit for Collingwood.

Motlop while he can play and is a fit given needs I'm have doubts about committment. Talent there, no doubt and he can absolutely play but until I hear something clearly suggesting that his character fits our profiling I've got my doubts we taking him all that seriously.

Caire I like for his two way game. He provides run and carry, is a sound ball user but then also can play a strong shutdown role in the back half. He's more a role player but I've liked what I've seen and feel he is capable of making the transition as many of those SANFL defenders have.

Petterd I'm not so high on because he's hardly playing. Has never played more than 18 games in a season and has only had the two seasons with more than 10 games. Additionally he hasn't really improved as I'd like. I'm fine with our young forwards who are able to produce to a similar level but stay healthy. He might receive an opportunity for a club but I don't think he's as big a step up talent wise as people assume and I'd probably stick with our young forwards and Krakouer for now until he shows he can stay healthy and produce over a full season.

Toy I'm thinking probably gets overlooked entirely and I strongly doubt he is on our shortlist having not been linked to Collingwood in the slightest. I always felt in a weak Gold Coast team and playing shutdown roles more than he should that he got exposed but in a more offensive role off a back flank surrounded by a stronger defensive group I feel he could be much better utilised. What he is capable of physically is the unknown and up to the club to look at, and I suggest they don't see him being able to make a recovery but he is one due to his unique talents with his long penetrating kick and excellent decision making that I just can't not have him on that shortlist as he does have as much best 22 potential as any still available if up and going.

Jurrah I'd be taking over Petterd anyday. Both have talent but Jurrah averages 2.3 goals per game. Petterd only the one goal per game. Jurrah is that better goalscoring threat and this is more what we need in our situation as opposed to another pressure forward which we have enough of with Elliott, Sinclair and Mooney all fine. Cloke is that main goalscoring threat and then Lynch has the opportunity to also contribute in this way next season but after that it's really balanced goalscoring (not a bad thing and you can win this way) but Jurrah is another goal scoring threat makes for a different dynamic that could do more damage. My sense is that he doesn't have any interest in moving back to Victoria so we probably can't select him, but if he was open to the move back to Collingwood then I'd certainly be very open to bringing him in as I don't see him as the problem player people assume.

Gill has a strong body as a forward but the sense I get is that he gets overlooked. With Paine, Richmond and then Grundy likely to play forward we already enough talls and I have my doubts we look to bring in another speculative forward.

Rodda I've never been big on. Big bodied key defender. Has his fans but I don't see the attraction. He is a type who can play a role and at times provide some rebound but struggles against the taller forwards and can also get shown up by the quicker, more mobile forwards. Not sure who he passes with Reid/Keeffe/Brown/Hartley and even Gault as a key defender all better in my view. I liked Clurey in the national draft as a key defender because his talent in my view was that level above to the extent that he could pass Brown and possibly even Keeffe by which is why I was very open to taking him but our key defence depth is stocked full enough with plenty of depth but also best 22 quality with Gault also ready if required to play next year.

Wilkins has a load of talent but I see him as a Mitch Morton in that I'm not sure the committment is entirely there from what I've heard and he is more flashes but not a complete picture who will dominate against good competition. I don't like his game at all as a forward but on a wing as that tall outside mid with his pace and skill level I admit does intrigue to some extent and in that sense not someone I would entirely discount but I do rate others slightly higher. As a rookie worth a risk for a club though whether it be Collingwood or someone else.

Braedon McLean is an interesting one through the midfield but again probably some I like more, though I could see a club seriously considering him. Just as a mid unless they are a top 5, maybe top 10 remaining prospect for a mid I'd probably look mature age with the club looking to boost that VFL side and make it a genuine top 8 team.

Shannon Taylor I have my concerns about. This year he just hasn't seemed serious enough about his footy. Coming into the year I had him in my second round with his pace absolutely something else but I see him as Kirk Ugle without the committment.

Patrick Wilson as a back flanker is interesting. Production certainly there and is that endurance beast and one I could certainly see receiving an opportunity for those clever clubs who have done their scouting but as a backman I'd look more mature and having seen more of some of the Victorian backman I'd probably back them in first knowing their games better and having more confidence.

Howson has been excellent up forward in WA. Just the pressure game lacking. Might be a rookie chance for a club but with enough talls I'd not super keen to add more unless it's someone I see as a better talent than what we already have which I'm not prepaired to declare with Howson.


I've got that same list with likely none taken in the PSD. Then Boston (though if not taken in PSD then that complicates things and might not be there), K.Mitchell (highly likely), Dwyer (possible), Hudson (lock it in), Yagmoor (lock it in), Richmond (lock it in).


With Yagmoor, Richmond and Hudson all locked in I'd personally take:
RD 1 (In Mid). Pongracic/K.Martin/Duscher/Sewell/Dwyer/Z.Williams/Heavyside/Knowles
RD 2 (Backman). Osborne/Caire/Langdon/Montgomery/Banfield/Ballard
RD 3 (Best available). Whoever is highest on my list (with the criteria that no more than one mature mid and one mature defender)
RD 4 (Best available). Garlett (should be available)/whoever is highest on my list as stated in RD3.

Yagmoor I'd rather not take and would love to take another in his place but in our situation we just can't do that with Yagmoor having that extra year on his contract to run.

- I'll include in the knightsight v hinesight threat who I'd take at each selection given who is available but this is the general template I'd bring into the draft with the final selections being:
RD 5. Hudson
RD 6. Yagmoor
--
RD 7. Richmond (category 2 rookie)

Mate Ross and Nelson both were v good at the inside footy this year. Ross has made huge strides in that part of his game. Even as a junior he was good at it but his coaches had him play outside more bc of pace. Motlop won't go but I think he gets their on talent and form......as you say commitment the issue. Seen a fair bit of Caire as well but I don't see it. I would take Mitch Clisby over Caire. Byron SUmner would be above him in my book as well. Both Caire, Clisby and Sumner I would rate more out than inside.

Jurrah vs Pettard... i get the stats are in Liams favour but just not sure he is a finals player and hence I think he would let you down. Pettard is hard and aggressive and I think at the right club he would be an infinitely better player. As you say durability a bit of an issue but for mine best player not yet on a list.

I really hope we look at Gill, Rodda would be happy with and know the club has been in constant contact with him so some chance. Taylor I agree with you on and he hasn't tested at all well recently so I think that goes some way to a demonstration of his 'want' but gee he is a talent. I know one club has kept an eye on him and he is still a chance. Wilson, Howson and Wilkins would be spec picks but wouldn't be upset with any of them.

Of your list I would be happy with any of the Pongracic, Martin or Williams but Williams will go as a zone pick. Of the second list Osborne, Langdon or Banfield, of the third round would hope Gartlett if not done already and then any of some of those I mentioned - Gill, Byrne, McLean, Haynes, Hayes etc