GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[RedV3x]

Sydney Heart ?

No.
Sydney Giants - "the heart of Sydney" - a giant with a red bulging heart.

 

[errant bounce]

The more I think about this, the more I agree. Suns made a mistake in brand differentiation going with similar colours to the Lions and Crows. Orange would have made them nice and unique.

Oh well, too late now.

Even more mental when they came into the comp within 12 months of one another and were created by the same people, the AFL.

Should've been the West Sydney Wolves who dedicated themselves to an area a little more accessible closer to the inner west, wearing charcoal and sky blue with silver/white. then the orange suns.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

Why limit to Western Sydney ? Homebush is in the geographical centre of Sydney.
Sydney Giants would attract people from all over Sydney that's why the Swans wont allow that a.t.m.

It might be close to the geographic centre of Sydney.

But in terms of the regions of Sydney and the demographics of Sydney, it's well and truly past the Red Rooster line.

It's not even in the Inner West (the hipster suburbs like Newtown, Glebe, Enmore, etc., that are west of the Anzac Bridge but east of the Red Rooster line).

It's in Western Sydney.

If you say "Central Sydney" to any Sydneysider, I guarantee you that they will interpret that as meaning the Sydney CBD.

No. Central Sydney Giants would be more correct.
That is the heart of Sydney - new logo- a heart.

The bit I don't think you're getting here is the socioeconomic divides in Sydney.

AFL footy (and the whole sport is called "AFL" in Sydney — even at local club level) and support for the Swans are strongest in the more affluent parts of Sydney.

The sport has always been strongest in the Eastern Suburbs (i.e. the wealthy suburbs east of the Sydney CBD). Even before South Melbourne relocated, Eastern Suburbs in the old Sydney Football League used to draw crowds in the thousands some weeks.

The North Shore (I.e. the suburbs north of the Lane Cove River, south of Ku-Ring-gai Chase National Park, and not on the beach) were the rugby union heartland in Sydney. But 30 years of screw-ups by the ARU have given AFL and soccer a good foothold up there.

And the Inner West is basically where anyone from Brunswick, Fitzroy, or Northcote move when they come up to Sydney. So AFL has a strong presence there.

Where AFL has been weaker historically is in the working class western suburbs, which have been a stronghold of rugby league and soccer.

The whole point of bringing in the Giants, and the associated investment in grassroots footy, was to try to change that.

Western Sydney Giants does that.

Sydney Giants says the AFL is giving up on the western suburbs and is making it a second team for the Eastern Suburbs, the Inner West, and the North Shore.

Maximum brand recognition is Sydney Giants - anything else dilutes the brand.

Which people from Sydney?

Calling them the Sydney Giants won't attract thousands of people from the North Shore to Olympic Park.

The whole stereotype of people from the North Shore is they never cross the bridge unless they're going to the airport. People from the Eastern Suburbs and the Inner West don't travel that far west.

If you want to build the game in the western suburbs, then Sydney Giants dilutes the brand.

 

[RedV3x]

It might be close to the geographic centre of Sydney.
But in terms of the regions of Sydney and the demographics of Sydney, it's well and truly past the Red Rooster line.

Yes. exactly my point, that WS is West of the CBD and that is not going to be diluted without some effort.

The bit I don't think you're getting here is the socioeconomic divides in Sydney.

You thought wrong.

The whole point of bringing in the Giants, and the associated investment in grassroots footy, was to try to change that.

Exactly.

Western Sydney Giants does that.

Sydney Giants says the AFL is giving up on the western suburbs and is making it a second team for the Eastern Suburbs, the Inner West, and the North Shore.

Totally disagree and what's wrong with a few more supporters from Sydney city?

Which people from Sydney?

People from all over Sydney.

Calling them the Sydney Giants won't attract thousands of people from the North Shore to Olympic Park.

No more than calling them GWS or WS etc. Then again it might as isn't there a new line.

The whole stereotype of people from the North Shore is they never cross the bridge unless they're going to the airport. People from the Eastern Suburbs and the Inner West don't travel that far west.

Whart's the travel connection with naming?
People will travel to Homebush to watch a competitive and entertaining game. .

If you want to build the game in the western suburbs, then Sydney Giants dilutes the brand.

Though that's the first bit of sense you've ;inked to logic I don't believe it to be true.
The name "Sydney Giants" widens the appeal witouth deterring anyone.
As you have pointed out any name with "West" is look down upon in Sydney.
You seem to be suggesting that we highlight that stereotype.

It/s marketing procedure to have the biggest name.
Few AFL clubs correspond only to their named locality.

 

[Aussie in exile]

If Homebush is a dump, is there a chance of finding a new facility in a different area ?

I'm sure the AFL could and even pay for it.

 

[Bjo187]

I'm sure the AFL could and even pay for it.

I don't want the afl contributing to a stadium build ever again, considering for some strange reason they are the only sport in the country that seems required by government to contribute $$.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

You thought wrong.

Well there's something very fundamental you don't seem to grasp.

In Sydney, your economic class determines which footy code you're likely to follow or play.

That's not really the case in Melbourne, Perth, or Adelaide.

In Sydney, which footy codes are popular varies between wealthier and poorer areas.

Again, not so much the case in the southern capitals.

In the private boys schools in Melbourne, Aussie rules has always been a popular code. And out in Cranbourne or Bayswater, Aussie Rules is the popular code.

Whereas in Sydney, rugby union was the game played in the private boys schools. In the working class suburbs, it was mostly rugby league or (in suburbs with a higher migrant population) soccer.

AFL footy and the Swans have tended to be a lot stronger in the wealthier suburbs than the working class west.

The whole point of the Giants was to grow the game in the working class western suburbs.

If the whole point of the club is to attract people in Western Sydney, it makes sense to have Western Sydney in the name.

Totally disagree and what's wrong with a few more supporters from Sydney city?

By having Western Sydney in the name, you're appealing to people in Western Sydney by explicitly saying this club represents Western Sydney.

By not having Western Sydney in the name, you dilute that appeal.

People from all over Sydney.

But there's not going to be thousands of people travelling from Chatswood or Roseville to Olympic Park every week to watch the Giants.

Not gonna cross the bridge, it's a pain to get there by car, it's a pain to get there by train.

There's not going to be thousands of people travelling from Rose Bay or Vaucluse every week.

They don't travel that far west.

So you want to diluting the appeal of the club to the people in Western Sydney you're trying to appeal to.

And you want to do it to make the Giants more appealing to people in the wealthier suburbs who are unlikely to want to regularly travel to Olympic Park.

Whart's the travel connection with naming?
People will travel to Homebush to watch a competitive and entertaining game. .

If you think thousands of people will travel weekly from the North Shore or Eastern Suburbs to Olympic Park, you frankly don't know Sydney very well.

As you have pointed out any name with "West" is look down upon in Sydney.

The name Western Sydney is not looked down upon by the working class people who live in Western Sydney.

It's looked down upon in the wealthier parts of Sydney, where AFL already has a long-established presence.

It/s marketing procedure to have the biggest name.
Few AFL clubs correspond only to their named locality.

It comes down to what you're aiming to do with the Giants.

If the aim is to have a second team in Sydney that appeals to the parts of Sydney that already follow AFL, then ship them off to the SCG and call them the Sydney Giants.

If the aim is to grow the code in the working class western suburbs, and appeals to people in Western Sydney, then call them Western Sydney Giants and have them play in Western Sydney.

And if your aim us the latter, then having Western Sydney in the name makes it clear to the people in Western Sydney that this club specifically represents Western Sydney.

 

[RedV3x]

The whole point of the Giants was to grow the game in the working class western suburbs.

The whole point of the Giants was to grow the game, fullstop

By not having Western Sydney in the name, you dilute that appeal.

There's a club called Fremantle and it's usually refered to as the Dockers and has appeal everywhere.
Fremantle set out trying to have the widest appeal possible and I think that is true of all clubs.

But there's not going to be thousands of people travelling from Chatswood or Roseville to Olympic Park every week to watch the Giants.

So what relevance has that got ? They are going to travel to watch a competitive match first and only.

So you want to diluting the appeal of the club to the people in Western Sydney you're trying to appeal to.

I think that the people would applaud by the upswing in status.

And you want to do it to make the Giants more appealing to people in the wealthier suburbs who are unlikely to want to regularly travel to Olympic Park.

You really have this thing about class.

The name Western Sydney is not looked down upon by the working class people who live in Western Sydney.

No, just the rest of Australia. that's why it's important to give the Giants as wide appeal as possible.
The Giants is a great name. That's big imagery. Don't think small.

It's looked down upon in the wealthier parts of Sydney, where AFL already has a long-established presence.

You should really get over this class thing.
Footscray changed their name to Western Bulldogs to widen their appeal.
They would have liked West Melbourne but the same situation exists in Melbourne.w.r.t. naming

It comes down to what you're aiming to do with the Giants.

If the aim is to have a second team in Sydney that appeals to the parts of Sydney that already follow AFL, then ship them off to the SCG and call them the Sydney Giants.

If you look at the situation in the other cities Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne AFL clubs draw support from all over the cities. Collingwood is supposed to be a working class suburb. It wouldn't exist if it only drew support from Collingwood would it.

If the aim is to grow the code in the working class western suburbs,

The aim is to appeal as many people as possible regardless of class or location.

And if your aim us the latter, then having Western Sydney in the name makes it clear to the people in Western Sydney that this club specifically represents Western Sydney.

There are a great number of people who follow Fremantle who couldn't care less about Fremantle the location.
There is a pub in Perth that hosts the supporters of both Sydney AFL clubs.
In comparison, the Giant's supporters seem to be much younger and vibrant than the Swans supporters
and they don't seem to be "working class".

 

[RedV3x]

I'm sure the AFL could and even pay for it.

Like the NRL does.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

No, just the rest of Australia. that's why it's important to give the Giants as wide appeal as possible.
The Giants is a great name. That's big imagery. Don't think small.

The population of Western Sydney is 2,734,168. Source: https://profile.id.com.au/cws/population

For context, the entire population of the whole state of WA is around 2.7 million.

Source: https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/snapshot-wa-2021

The whole point of the Giants was to grow the game, fullstop

The whole point of creating the Giants was to grow the game in Western Sydney.

Here's Andrew Demitriou in his own words:

"For western Sydney, we've given ourselves a challenge to see if we can find a group that we'd issue a license to from 2012 and beyond.

"That could mean the team could be playing in the competition one or two years after that. It's an ambitious plan but one we're prepared for."

Mr Demetriou says the AFL is very wary of the threat posed to it by other codes.

"If we don't think about expansion we'll be caught standing still and we'll miss out on a great opportunity in two of the fastest growing corridors in Australia," he said.

"I don't think when you're in our role, when you're charged with the responsibility of growing the game, that you could be thinking of anything other than going forward.

"I would hate to think we'll be looking back in 20 or 30 years saying 'gosh, we missed out on that great opportunity in south-east Queensland and western Sydney."

Source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-02-19/afl-expansion-a-matter-of-urgency/1046942

There's a club called Fremantle and it's usually refered to as the Dockers and has appeal everywhere.
Fremantle set out trying to have the widest appeal possible and I think that is true of all clubs.

You can't directly transpose what works in Perth to Sydney.

The dominant code in Perth is Aussie Rules, and it has been for over 100 years.

In Sydney, the dominant code has been rugby league, except for the North Shore and Eastern Suburbs, where it has been rugby union.

AFL is a challenger to the dominant codes up here.

In Perth, there is no significant difference in what the dominant code is between the wealthier and more working class suburbs.

In Sydney, there is a clear difference between the code tgat has been most popular is working class Western Sydney (rugby league) and the wealthier parts of Sydney (rugby union, on the North Shore and Eastern suburbs).

Aussie Rules is not significantly more popular in the wealthier parts of Perth than the more working class parts of Perth.

In Sydney, AFL has tended to be significantly more popular in the North Shore and the Eastern Suburbs than it has been in Western Sydney.

When the AFL created the Dockers, it was in a state where Aussie Rules was the dominant football code, in a part of Perth that had long supported two clubs in the WAFL (East Fremantle and South Fremantle).

AFL is not the dominant code in NSW. The Giants were created to grow the game in a region of Sydney where the sport had historically been the weakest.

You should really get over this class thing.

Class is a non-factor in the Perth sporting market.

Class, or more specifically the difference in which football codes are popular in the wealthier regions of Sydney vs the traditionally working class regions, is a big factor in the Sydney sporting market.

It's why Shute Shield teams in Western Sydney tend to perform poorly. It's the reason the North Sydney Bears (North Shore) are getting shipped across to Perth.

If you want to discuss sport in Sydney, you should be at least a little familiar with the city.

If you look at the situation in the other cities Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne AFL clubs draw support from all over the cities. Collingwood is supposed to be a working class suburb. It wouldn't exist if it only drew support from Collingwood would it.

Yeah, if only there were a team in Sydney called Sydney that was called Sydney that could draw support from across Sydney.

Oh wait. There is one already. The Sydney Swans.

And what happened is that their supporter base grew strongest in the wealthier parts of Sydney that traditionally followed rugby union.

Meanwhile, in traditionally working class Western Sydney, AFL was a distant third or fourth in terms of popularity.

To try to reach those 2.7 million people in the rugby league heartland of Western Sydney, the AFL invested millions into grassroots footy and created the Giants.

The whole problem is it diluted the brand by calling it GWS instead of Western Sydney, in a bid to gain supporters in Canberra and rural NSW.

Calling it the Western Sydney Giants would be a much stronger brand in terms of appealing to the people of Western Sydney.

And 2.7 million people (more than four times the population of Tasmania, roughly twice the population of Adelaide) is more than enough people to support an AFL club — if the people of Western Sydney get behind it.

So what relevance has that got ? They are going to travel to watch a competitive match first and only.

If you genuinely think thousands of people will travel from the North Shore or the Eastern Suburbs to Olympic Park each week to watch the Giants, then frankly you are utterly clueless about Sydney.

 

[mchal4]

People are grown up enough that u can just call them 'Sydney'
no need to treat them like children

 

[Consolaçao]

I don't think people know the situation in Sydney.
They came down on NRL celebrity like a ton of bricks.

Fox red-faced after Matthew Johns spruiks AFL

The NRL and Fox Sports have been left embarrassed, with the face of Fox League, Matthew Johns, involved in an advertising campaign to promote the game’s great rival.

www.smh.com.au

I lived there 15 years ago, and the hostility towards Australian football amazed me.
I met a loooot of NRL fans that were really insecure with a massive inferiority complex when it came to AFL. And as a South Australian, i know an inferiority complex when i see one.

 

[Walshawk]

How many Giants fans at the SCG today? Aside from the cheer squad there is not another orange bay that I can see. It is a sea of red.

 

[Bjo187]

How many Giants fans at the SCG today? Aside from the cheer squad there is not another orange bay that I can see. It is a sea of red.

Rubbish, they were mixed throughout the crowd and had a big section on the wing. Other than the right side of screen was mostly swans.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The orange was terrible for contrast. Swans and Giants fans in the same bay just blended against each other.

You could definitely hear some decent Giants cheers at the key moments.

 

[mchal4]

The orange was terrible for contrast. Swans and Giants fans in the same bay just blended against each other.

You could definitely hear some decent Giants cheers at the key moments.

exactly why they should wear sky blue..point proven

 

[Giant YoYo]

How many Giants fans at the SCG today? Aside from the cheer squad there is not another orange bay that I can see. It is a sea of red.

Plenty of us but we blended in

 

[Prince Imperial]

The Giants fans should be given a few bays only for their members for these SCG finals.

 

[pOleK]

Big test for the Giants against the Lions next week in terms of crowd strength. Interstate side that probably won’t draw too much to the game out in Western Sydney. Brisbanes record finals crowd in Sydney of 70k against the Swans back in 03 seems a bit of a stretch away.

All in all crowd wise the Giants have only had 3 home finals at Giants stadium:

21790 v WB prelim 2016
14865 v West Coast semi 2017
19218 v WB elim 2019

It’s actually crazy how many times they’ve come up against the Swans in their short history. Hopefully the game gets the crowd it deserves

 

[Walshawk]

Big test for the Giants against the Lions next week in terms of crowd strength. Interstate side that probably won’t draw too much to the game out in Western Sydney. Brisbanes record finals crowd in Sydney of 70k against the Swans back in 03 seems a bit of a stretch away.

All in all crowd wise the Giants have only had 3 home finals at Giants stadium:

21790 v WB prelim 2016
14865 v West Coast semi 2017
19218 v WB elim 2019

It’s actually crazy how many times they’ve come up against the Swans in their short history. Hopefully the game gets the crowd it deserves

It will be a good measure of the growth of the GIANTS. You would think that Brisbane will bring a few thousand fans more than WC, and crowds are generally up 10% - 20% since 2017, so I reckon 18k would be the break even.

 

[Colonial]

Even more mental when they came into the comp within 12 months of one another and were created by the same people, the AFL.

Should've been the West Sydney Wolves who dedicated themselves to an area a little more accessible closer to the inner west, wearing charcoal and sky blue with silver/white. then the orange suns.

While I agree on the colours, especially as it is the opposite of the Swans, I don’t get the wolves name.
I didn’t get it when everyone in here was pushing it back then and still don’t.
Giants is a great name.

We all know my thoughts on the Canberra connection. Western Sydney needs to be full time.

 

[Colonial]

Western Sydney is as parochial as Tasmania. If they deserve a full time team, they do, then a region the AFL are desperate to win over in a long term plan needs it too.
In my opinion.
Being part time will not get those onboard who haven’t followed the game, and more importantly, get those who have a VFL team to jump ship to their local team due to being part time.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

While I agree on the colours, especially as it is the opposite of the Swans, I don’t get the wolves name.
I didn’t get it when everyone in here was pushing it back then and still don’t.
Giants is a great name.

We all know my thoughts on the Canberra connection. Western Sydney needs to be full time.

Absolutely right. No issues with Giants.

GWS, on the other hand, is something you can tell a marketing consultant in Melbourne came up with.

Over the past week, there's been a decent amount of news coverage up here around the Swans vs Giants final.

It's been featured on all the TV news bulletins up here, both commercial and ABC. In the SMH and the Daily Tele. On the radio.

It was a brilliant opportunity to get the word out, to people who don't follow or don't closely follow the game, that there's a successful team from Western Sydney contesting the finals in the AFL.

Instead, a lot of that coverage said "GWS".

That, to me, is a huge missed opportunity.

 

[Colonial]

People are grown up enough that u can just call them 'Sydney'
no need to treat them like children

Except the club isn’t meant to be Sydney B.
It’s meant to be Western Sydney.

 

[RedV3x]

For context, the entire population of the whole state of WA is around 2.7 million.

And yet there is no "Perth" named teams.

The whole point of creating the Giants was to grow the game in Western Sydney.

The whole point of creating the Giants was to grow the game by targetting Western Sydney.
Anything outside of W.S. being a bonus.

Here's Andrew Demitriou in his own words:

Yes, he says, what I say, that the whole point of creating the Giants was to grow the game by targetting Western Sydney.

You can't directly transpose what works in Perth to Sydney.

Perth is just one example.
Why did the Eastern Suburbs become Sydney City then ?

Class, or more specifically the difference in which football codes are popular in the wealthier regions of Sydney vs the traditionally working class regions, is a big factor in the Sydney sporting market.

Well if you look at the the various regions like you have the big difference is IMMIGRATION.
the only reason the AFL is "fighting" the NRL is because the NRL is definitely fighting the AFL.
The AFL is actually trying to boost AFL in an area dominated by soccer.

And what happened is that their supporter base grew strongest in the wealthier parts of Sydney that traditionally followed rugby union.

What really happened was that Australian Football was more established in established parts of Sydney.
I don't need a history lesson.
I don't this class b.s.
It seems to me that you are afraid of success outside of your working-class logic.

If you genuinely think thousands of people will travel from the North Shore or the Eastern Suburbs to Olympic Park each week to watch the Giants, then frankly you are utterly clueless about Sydney.

WTF would I think thousands of people will travel from the North Shore each week to watch the Giants,
I occasionally travel from the Eastern Suburbs to Olympic Park to watch the Giants.
It's a simple two train ride.
It's much simpler to travel from the Eastern Suburbs to Olympic Park to watch the Giants than travel to Opus Oval in Perth.


I'll state the obvious one more time, Everybody knows that the Giants stand for Western Sydney, it doesn't have to be in the name. You are absolutely clueless if you think targeting just working class NRL types has sense.
The W.S. is made up of all types of people. Those are the people the AFL is targeting but other people outside of W.S. will be attracted - don't discourage them with silly class statements or supposed history lessons.