When will the AFL see a return on their investment on GWS and Gold Coast?

[TheGoldPersons]

Are AFL fans the only people in the world that whinge on how a company invests their money?

 

[RedV3x]

Are AFL fans the only people in the world that whinge on how a company invests their money?

Completely senseless.

 

[Bjo187]

Kingsley on AFL tonight just stated in a population of 2.5 million people in western sydney, there are only 250 registered males between 12 and 15 playing footy.

 

[Rob]

Kingsley on AFL tonight just stated in a population of 2.5 million people in western sydney, there are only 250 registered males between 12 and 15 playing footy.

That's 60 per age group....so 3 teams? There are only 3 teams per age group across the entirety of Western Sydney?

Would have thought that would be pretty easy to prove or disprove.

 

[Colonial]

That's 60 per age group....so 3 teams? There are only 3 teams per age group across the entirety of Western Sydney?

Would have thought that would be pretty easy to prove or disprove.

doesnt seem right

 

[GC2015]

Not pretending, He did do more harm than good.

Wait so because supposedly in around a decade, maybe, the Gold Coast will be ore expensive than Sydney Im flat out wrong? Wow. Talk about a stretch

The strange part about your post/s is that you've labeled the assertions that GWS were better resourced than GC "a load of rubbish", but then when you've been presented with the facts you've chosen to completely ignore the advantages your club received through concessions and T&A facility timelines. Instead you simply just doubled down on an opinion of Sheedy and tried to twist the cost of living information to discredit the person you quoted.

This is called cognitive dissonance. Your mind wants to believe GWS have either been given the same amount of advantages as the Suns or worse, but when presented with the facts you chose to ignore the objective truth. Do what you want with that information and if you're ever ready to respond to the facts presented in my previous post then we can continue this discussion.

 

[Colonial]

The strange part about your post/s is that you've labeled the assertions that GWS were better resourced than GC "a load of rubbish", but then when you've been presented with the facts you've chosen to completely ignore the advantages your club received through concessions and T&A facility timelines. Instead you simply just doubled down on an opinion of Sheedy and tried to twist the cost of living information to discredit the person you quoted.

This is called cognitive dissonance. Your mind wants to believe GWS have either been given the same amount of advantages as the Suns or worse, but when presented with the facts you chose to ignore the objective truth. Do what you want with that information and if you're ever ready to respond to the facts presented in my previous post then we can continue this discussion.

Whats the point unless they go with your narrative you wont accept it.
lol you just want people to play violins for you.
So.

 

[GC2015]

Whats the point unless they go with your narrative you wont accept it.
lol you just want people to play violins for you.
So.

You've done it again. Thanks for proving my point.

Just out of curiosity from a social experiment point of view, I'll simply list the objective facts that show the start up resources provided to GWS were greater than Gold Coast's:

• Gold Coast were given an increased salary cap for its first four seasons in the AFL which included 1st year - $1m, 2nd year - $800k, 3rd year - $600k, 4th year - $400k. GWS were given an increased salary cap for its first seven season in the AFL which included 1st year - $1m, 2nd year - $1m, 3rd year - $1m, 4th year - $880k, 5th year - $760k, 6th year - $640k, 7th year - $520k.
• Gold Coast were given an increased list size for its first four seasons in the AFL which included 1st year - 48, 2nd year - 46, 3rd year - 42, 4th year - 40. GWS were given an increased list size for its first seven season in the AFL which included 1st year - 50, 2nd year - 50, 3rd year - 50, 4th year - 48, 5th year - 46, 6th year - 44, 7th year - 42.
• GWS were given two Mini Draft picks in both 2011 and 2012 (four total) under the condition that they would trade the picks. Gold Coast were not given any Mini Draft picks at any stage.
• In the Suns' foundation year they were granted the first five selections in the rookie draft. In GWS's foundation year they were granted the first eight selections in the rookie draft.
• GWS were given a Cost Of Living Allowance (COLA) for their first five seasons in the AFL. Gold Coast were never given COLA.

No narrative. No opinion. Just objective facts. Let's see what you do with this information.

 

[Colonial]

You've done it again. Thanks for proving my point.

That you wanted a Violin? You’re welcome.

• Gold Coast were given an increased salary cap for its first four seasons in the AFL which included 1st year - $1m, 2nd year - $800k, 3rd year - $600k, 4th year - $400k. GWS were given an increased salary cap for its first seven season in the AFL which included 1st year - $1m, 2nd year - $1m, 3rd year - $1m, 4th year - $880k, 5th year - $760k, 6th year - $640k, 7th year - $520k.
• Gold Coast were given an increased list size for its first four seasons in the AFL which included 1st year - 48, 2nd year - 46, 3rd year - 42, 4th year - 40. GWS were given an increased list size for its first seven season in the AFL which included 1st year - 50, 2nd year - 50, 3rd year - 50, 4th year - 48, 5th year - 46, 6th year - 44, 7th year - 42.

Increased salary cap was to cover list size, wasn’t used all on 1 player nor could it of been, so merged the two points.
A larger list was because they thought the Giants would struggle more than the Suns in keeping their players.
Giants hired well though and we kept an awful lot. 6 of our original stars still here 12 years later.

• GWS were given two Mini Draft picks in both 2011 and 2012 (four total) under the condition that they would trade the picks. Gold Coast were not given any Mini Draft picks at any stage.

You got Martin and O’Meara from that didn’t you? Suns won us getting a minidraft more than any club including the Giants.

• In the Suns' foundation year they were granted the first five selections in the rookie draft. In GWS's foundation year they were granted the first eight selections in the rookie draft.

It’s a rookie draft, hardly deal breakers.

• GWS were given a Cost Of Living Allowance (COLA) for their first five seasons in the AFL. Gold Coast were never given COLA.

Yep. More expensive in Sydney to live and still is, thats a Fact. You’re response was in another decade the GC will be, that’s an opinion unless you have a Time Machine.
It’s also irrelevant as there isn’t any COLA anymore.
Pretty well known that everyone thought Players would flock to the sun and surf of the GC and not WS.

Suns were considered the “can’t lose” and the Giants were, what was it, “the Vietnam” in the beginning.

But this “it’s the AFLs fault the Suns aren’t playing finals” is the rubbish part.
The Suns club are the ones who picked their playing lists, coaches etc.

They had the quality to do it and the opportunity but Suns supporters keep pushing the “AFL are at fault, Giants wah wah”. Sounding more like the Saints “expansion is the reason we haven’t won a flag since Moses” excuse.

Look yeah overall the Suns got less than the Giants in start up, a lot to take into consideration like the quality of the local leagues etc, but it wasn’t by a phenomenal amount.

Demand more from your club. I don’t think the Giants are perfect, made many many many mistakes.
But long long way to go.

Blaming everyone else doesn’t get you anywhere.

 

[GC2015]

Increased salary cap was to cover list size, wasn’t used all on 1 player nor could it of been, so merged the two points.
A larger list was because they thought the Giants would struggle more than the Suns in keeping their players.
Giants hired well though and we kept an awful lot. 6 of our original stars still here 12 years later.

Irrespective of the reasoning, we can agree that the AFL gave the Giants better entry conditions when it came to list size and salary cap space. Glad to see you're acknowledging the objective truth now.

You got Martin and O’Meara from that didn’t you? Suns won us getting a minidraft more than any club including the Giants.

We got Martin and O'Meara by trading the draft picks we earned by finishing last in 2011 and second last in 2012. Big difference between using the pick you earned from your ladder position and being given a highly sought after pick that must trade and you did nothing to earn it. So, again, we can agree that GWS were given a concessional advantage that the Suns were not.

It’s a rookie draft, hardly deal breakers.

Depends on how you choose to look at it. Although GWS didn't use all 8 rookie picks, they used 6 vs the 5 that the Suns were allowed to use. Therefore, it was another advantage GWS were given (and used) when compared the Suns, even if it you consider it a minor advantage.

Yep. More expensive in Sydney to live and still is, thats a Fact. You’re response was in another decade the GC will be, that’s an opinion unless you have a Time Machine.

It’s also irrelevant as there isn’t any COLA anymore.
Pretty well known that everyone thought Players would flock to the sun and surf of the GC and not WS.

Suns were considered the “can’t lose” and the Giants were, what was it, “the Vietnam” in the beginning.

But this “it’s the AFLs fault the Suns aren’t playing finals” is the rubbish part.
The Suns club are the ones who picked their playing lists, coaches etc.

They had the quality to do it and the opportunity but Suns supporters keep pushing the “AFL are at fault, Giants wah wah”. Sounding more like the Saints “expansion is the reason we haven’t won a flag since Moses” excuse.

Never denied it was more expensive to live in Sydney. I was simply pointing out that it costs more than the "$5" suggestion you made and is going to become a much bigger problem for us by the end of this decade when it becomes more expensive to live here than anywhere else in the nation.

It's not an opinion that the GC will be more expensive to live in than Sydney by 2030. It's a prediction based on available data that has been made by many experts/media outlets - .

The reason COLA is relevant to our discussion is because we were discussing advantageous entry conditions your club was given when compared to GC and the Giants were given COLA for six seasons as opposed to the zero seasons given to the Suns.

Never stated it was the AFL's fault that the Suns aren't playing finals. They certainly could have helped our chances by giving us the same entry conditions and helping us securing league standard T&A facilities early on like the Giants but that also doesn't guarantee finals participation. Ultimately, we'll never know what the Suns could have achieved had the entry conditions been the same.

In all honesty, I think Gary Ablett injuring his shoulder in 2014 was the biggest factor behind us being so dismal over the last decade. Had he played out that season he would have surely won a third Brownlow Medal (he was the unbackable favourite at the time) and I'm fairly sure he would have led us to the required three wins we needed in the last seven games of the season. To put it in perspective, we faced teams like 18th placed St Kilda, 15th placed Brisbane, 14th placed Bulldogs, 13th placed Carlton and 9th placed West Coast in those last seven games after Ablett's injury so I'm fairly confident we would have played finals in 2014 if Gaz never got hurt.

Had we played finals in that 2014 season then I think the following decade would have been very different as many of our original players likely would have stayed for longer and we would have had legitimate opportunities to secure high end talent from trades/free agency with the carrot of finals being dangled in front of them. Instead, we went backwards after Gaz hurt his shoulder and eventually had to commit to a rebuild in the 2015-19 years when a lot of our originals began to leave. That's my opinion on the matter.

Look yeah overall the Suns got less than the Giants in start up, a lot to take into consideration like the quality of the local leagues etc, but it wasn’t by a phenomenal amount.

Well, at least you're admitting it now. We've made progress.

Demand more from your club. I don’t think the Giants are perfect, made many many many mistakes.
But long long way to go.

Blaming everyone else doesn’t get you anywhere.

You can demand more from your club while still acknowledging the fact that the entry conditions weren't equal. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Colonial]

Irrespective of the reasoning, we can agree that the AFL gave the Giants better entry conditions when it came to list size and salary cap space. Glad to see you're acknowledging the objective truth now.


We got Martin and O'Meara by trading the draft picks we earned by finishing last in 2011 and second last in 2012. Big difference between using the pick you earned from your ladder position and being given a highly sought after pick that must trade and you did nothing to earn it. So, again, we can agree that GWS were given a concessional advantage that the Suns were not.


Depends on how you choose to look at it. Although GWS didn't use all 8 rookie picks, they used 6 vs the 5 that the Suns were allowed to use. Therefore, it was another advantage GWS were given (and used) when compared the Suns, even if it you consider it a minor advantage.


Never denied it was more expensive to live in Sydney. I was simply pointing out that it costs more than the "$5" suggestion you made and is going to become a much bigger problem for us by the end of this decade when it becomes more expensive to live here than anywhere else in the nation.

It's not an opinion that the GC will be more expensive to live in than Sydney by 2030. It's a prediction based on available data that has been made by many experts/media outlets - .

The reason COLA is relevant to our discussion is because we were discussing advantageous entry conditions your club was given when compared to GC and the Giants were given COLA for six seasons as opposed to the zero seasons given to the Suns.

Never stated it was the AFL's fault that the Suns aren't playing finals. They certainly could have helped our chances by giving us the same entry conditions and helping us securing league standard T&A facilities early on like the Giants but that also doesn't guarantee finals participation. Ultimately, we'll never know what the Suns could have achieved had the entry conditions been the same.

In all honesty, I think Gary Ablett injuring his shoulder in 2014 was the biggest factor behind us being so dismal over the last decade. Had he played out that season he would have surely won a third Brownlow Medal (he was the unbackable favourite at the time) and I'm fairly sure he would have led us to the required three wins we needed in the last seven games of the season. To put it in perspective, we faced teams like 18th placed St Kilda, 15th placed Brisbane, 14th placed Bulldogs, 13th placed Carlton and 9th placed West Coast in those last seven games after Ablett's injury so I'm fairly confident we would have played finals in 2014 if Gaz never got hurt.

Had we played finals in that 2014 season then I think the following decade would have been very different as many of our original players likely would have stayed for longer and we would have had legitimate opportunities to secure high end talent from trades/free agency with the carrot of finals being dangled in front of them. Instead, we went backwards after Gaz hurt his shoulder and eventually had to commit to a rebuild in the 2015-19 years when a lot of our originals began to leave. That's my opinion on the matter.


Well, at least you're admitting it now. We've made progress.


You can demand more from your club while still acknowledging the fact that the entry conditions weren't equal. They're not mutually exclusive.

Lol ok mate. “Better concessions” is not the right way to put it.
As I said they were different because the situations were different.

Only thing I do agree is Ablett getting injured in 2014 was a massive sliding doors moment.

 

[GC2015]

Lol ok mate. “Better concessions” is not the right way to put it.
As I said they were different because the situations were different.

Only thing I do agree is Ablett getting injured in 2014 was a massive sliding doors moment.

Unfortunately, you're guilty of cognitive dissonance again with this response as you've completely ignored around 90% of the information in the post you quoted and just focused on one sentence that you feel should be worded differently. So if you're going to be pedantic then we'll use your wording, even though it's essentially the same sentiment in terms of the total concessions each club received.

"Overall the Suns got less than the Giants in start up." - General Giant, 2023

No point in continuing this discussion if you're just going to ignore the objective facts presented to you. We'll leave it at that unless you have a change of heart.

 

[Walshawk]

That's 60 per age group....so 3 teams? There are only 3 teams per age group across the entirety of Western Sydney?

Would have thought that would be pretty easy to prove or disprove.

He is right.

AFL Sydney Juniors 2023 grades for AFL Sydney Juniors | PlayHQ

View AFL Sydney Juniors's grades in the AFL Sydney Juniors 2023 season

www.playhq.com

Western Sydney is generally considered west of Homebush. There has been no growth in the GWS zone. All the growth in Sydney is in Swans territory. And that growth is all girls, There are not more boys playing footy in Sydney now than there were pre GWS.

 

[Colonial]

Unfortunately, you're guilty of cognitive dissonance again with this response as you've completely ignored around 90% of the information in the post you quoted and just focused on one sentence that you feel should be worded differently. So if you're going to be pedantic then we'll use your wording, even though it's essentially the same sentiment in terms of the total concessions each club received.

"Overall the Suns got less than the Giants in start up." - General Giant, 2023

No point in continuing this discussion if you're just going to ignore the objective facts presented to you. We'll leave it at that unless you have a change of heart.

No point discussing. 100%
Keep blaming everyone else about why your club is where it’s at.

 

[GC2015]

Keep blaming everyone else about why your club is where it’s at.

What are you talking about? I literally wrote the biggest reason we have been unsuccessful over the last decade was the fact that our captain/best player got hurt at a crucial time in our initial list build and you agreed that it was a "massive sliding doors moment for us". How is that blaming somebody else?

Are you just a Bigfooty troll or have you legitimately overlooked that I wrote that and you agreed with it? The latter would be very concerning...

 

[Colonial]

What are you talking about? I literally wrote the biggest reason we have been unsuccessful over the last decade was the fact that our captain/best player got hurt at a crucial time in our initial list build and you agreed that it was a "massive sliding doors moment for us". How is that blaming somebody else?

Are you just a Bigfooty troll or have you legitimately overlooked that I wrote that and you agreed with it? The latter would be very concerning...

Thought you had moved on.

 

[GC2015]

Thought you had moved on.

I had until you decided to have one last jab on the way out and blatantly lied about the way I view my club. You're clearly a BF troll because this has gone well beyond the point of a reasonable discussion.

 

[Colonial]

I had until you decided to have one last jab on the way out and blatantly lied about the way I view my club. You're clearly a BF troll because this has gone well beyond the point of a reasonable discussion.

No jab at all.
No trolling here.

 

[GC2015]

No jab at all.
No trolling here.

Sure mate.

 

[Colonial]

Sure mate.

believe it or not.

 

[GC2015]

Back on topic.

He is right.

AFL Sydney Juniors 2023 grades for AFL Sydney Juniors | PlayHQ

View AFL Sydney Juniors's grades in the AFL Sydney Juniors 2023 season

www.playhq.com

Western Sydney is generally considered west of Homebush. There has been no growth in the GWS zone. All the growth in Sydney is in Swans territory. And that growth is all girls, There are not more boys playing footy in Sydney now than there were pre GWS.

That's pretty shocking to see. Seems like the AFL has a looooong way to go in order to make inroads at the grassroots level in Western Sydney. We've seen junior participation rates explode on the Gold Coast, increase in Brisbane and it looks like there has been growth in eastern Sydney as well. So it's really just Western Sydney that's lagging behind in that regard and that's even with a reasonably successful team representing them in the AFL. It's going to be a hard slog that may take several decades but I'm sure the AFL are willing to tough it out.

 

[RedV3x]

We've seen junior participation rates explode on the Gold Coast, increase in Brisbane and it looks like there has been growth in eastern Sydney as well.

and northern Sydney. There are various reasons for that growth, reasons that are mostly missing from western Sydney.
IMO, Auckland would be a much easier target.

 

[Bjo187]

and northern Sydney. There are various reasons for that growth, reasons that are mostly missing from western Sydney.
IMO, Auckland would be a much easier target.

Instead of being cryptic, state the reasons.

 

[Angus Young]

GWS exciting stuff. Must be catching on even just a little bit up there.

 

[Bjo187]

The Giants were on 7 main up in Sydney yesterday which is good promotion for a change.