Play Nice Héritier Lumumba blasts Collingwood's racist treatment of him during his career (Civil discussion please)

[JMarra]

I'm sure Pendleburys basketball background will help him evade these allegations.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I am very much in the Adam Goodes booing was racist camp... But Harry O is a complete flog, the dislike for him from AFL fans has nothing to do with race.. Remember when he thought he should be entitled to meet with Obama OMFG

 

[madrigal]

Policy determined by those who held voting power over the years has had a lasting effect. See gay marriage which has only just become legal.

No doubt it has had an effect at the group level, as for the individual you are just using a stereotype and skin colour to determine whether the effect applies. It has been said that using positive stereotypes is also damaging. You being flippant against a group based on the colour of their skin based on group dynamics that may or may not apply to the individual level is racist. You can't reverse historical oppression or heal it by treating people differently unless you think people are fungible and you can make up for the unfairness of the past, by unfairness in the present.

 

[DapperJong]

No doubt it has had an effect at the group level, as for the individual you are just using a stereotype and skin colour to determine whether the effect applies. It has been said that using positive stereotypes is also damaging. You being flippant against a group based on the colour of their skin based on group dynamics that may or may not apply to the individual level is racist. You can't reverse historical oppression or heal it by treating people differently unless you think people are fungible and you can make up for the unfairness of the past, by unfairness in the present.

That post in isolation of course isn't quite correct and I think everyone acknowledges that some straight white men don't have it easy in life.

Not sure I was using any stereotypes, actually. And I think what is perceived as being unfair in the present is not right at all. That's the crux on why saying "all lives matter" in response to BLM is missing the point. No one is saying they don't matter. You think just because one group is getting more attention, you will receive less. I don't think it works that way. Did men get less voting power when women received the right to vote? Don't think so.

Now if you're worried about me or anyone else in the thread being racist, there are other posts in this thread that need your attention.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

I think it's just you? Just saying... I think Lumumba's issues were never adequately addressed. So until they are Lumumba has a right to bring the up. So when will they be adequately addressed? Lumumba will probably have and should have the final say on that.

Possibly - just plenty about this specific scenario that really smells.

Good luck to him, I hope he finds whatever it is he is looking for.

 

[Toump Ass]

Odd comment:
"The CFC/AFL did not have the capacity to address the issues I was raising".

Pretty sure they did, they just didn't care that much.

 

[Woody15]

I am very much in the Adam Goodes booing was racist camp... But Harry O is a complete flog, the dislike for him from AFL fans has nothing to do with race.. Remember when he thought he should be entitled to meet with Obama OMFG

Im glad you let us all know you're in the Adam Goodes camp before ignoring Heritier's claims of racism inside the club and that you think he is flog.

 

[NoobPie]

I think it's just you? Just saying... I think Lumumba's issues were never adequately addressed. So until they are Lumumba has a right to bring the up. So when will they be adequately addressed? Lumumba will probably have and should have the final say on that.

No, it's not just him at all.

If Lumumba's issues are understood as ultimately of a B-Cluster personality disorder kind then it is hard to see how validating his periodic attacks on the Collingwood football club is going to help with that

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

Im glad you let us all know you're in the Adam Goodes camp before ignoring Heritier's claims of racism inside the club and that you think he is flog.

Next he'll mention his one black friend.

 

[Monkey King]

The fact that Patrick Dangerfield gets it does not detract from what I said.

And I don't agree. There are loads of people out there with opinions on all matter of things which essentially have nothing to do with them. Look at you. You're doing it right now. People with no relevant skill set, knowledge or experience, will tell actors how to act, doctors how to doctor, footballers how to football and further, how to live, think and express themselves publicly. This happens all the time to people from all manner of races, backgrounds and ethnicity, including as pertains to cultural practice and expression.

On your second point, if you actually quoted everything that I posted instead of selecting just a sentence then you and others would have understood the context of what I was saying. You would have realised that I was talking about the black people initially protesting in a peaceful manner and being slammed for it, and then being told to protest peacefully when they turn to violent behaviour like looting and stealing. My point was not that looting and stealing is acceptable. My point wasn't that people should not speak out against looting and stealing. I for one am against the looting and stealing and am happy that people of any race are reminding others (black or otherwise) that this is wrong. The whole point that I was mentioning is that there is no right way to protest according to these people.

There's nothing else you posted that changed the context. You made a stupid comment about thieves and looters and it deserved to be pulled up.

Sorry, who are "these people"? This just sounds like some representative heuristic.

 

[Restricted Free Agent]

This is straying a little off-topic so this will be my last comment on it. Apologies for slightly derailing the thread

Anyone with a functioning moral reasoning is able to discern between casual racism and the malicious and violent kind

It doesn't make either OK. Saying murder is worse than assault is not to say assault is OK.

Except for the fact that you're saying that he's being dramatic for calling out and I quote "Australian style, non-malicious casual racism"

Apparently this was by his closer mates at the club btw.

Source? Not challenging you, I'd just like to read a bit more about this

But this was the club.

Chelsea racism allegations: four more players to take legal action against club

Another four former Chelsea academy players are taking legal action against the club over racist abuse they allege they were subjected to by the coaches Graham Rix and Gwyn Williams

www.theguardian.com

Not guys in the early 20s making un PC jokes abou their mates in their early 20s. This is coaches in their 40s racially victimising teenagers.

What a disgusting cesspool of racism your russian oligarch owned soccer business is

Racism that occurred in the 1990s and was shamefully covered up. It's an undeniably disgusting chapter in the club's history. It's terrible that the abuse took so long to come to light. I'm glad the club helped with investigations

A Chelsea spokesman said: “We take allegations of this nature extremely seriously. We are absolutely determined to do the right thing, to assist the authorities and any investigations and to fully support those affected which would include counselling for any former player that may need it.”

Yet it's shameful that something like this could have ever happened.

But to clarify a few things, in the 1990s Roman Abramovich was not the owner of the club, he took over in June of 2003. Since this incident, the club has done a lot to rectify and educated about racism. Since then Chelsea has been vocal against racist abuse punishing racist abuse from fans and has taken several public stands against racism. For example last week




Anyway, that's the end of that tangent. It is undeniable what my soccer club did was racist and disgusting. Change has occurred since but that doesn't right the wrongs of the past.

Back to Lumumba, I'd like to see the sources you've used for your information so that I can further educate myself

 

[swiftdog]

Racial vilification should not be tolerated but I don't think HL realises how easy he had it thanks to people before him like Winmar and co who laid the groundwork for those who followed, and thank god that every player who was racially vilified hasn't allowed it to define the rest of their life as HL seems to be allowing it to define his. There are many who were far harshly treated that have moved on with their lives.
I would point at someone like Chris Lewis who copped as much vicious and incessant racial abuse on field as anyone who ever played the game, to the point that it almost destroyed his career. If anyone has a case to argue he does, but you don't see him playing the victim and I've never once heard him raise the matter or seek apologies from anyone since he finished playing.

Lewis had a choice to make, and he chose to move on and make a life for himself and HL can continue to play the victim or move on and have a good life.... it's his choice. If he chooses to continue being the victim, please don't bore us with your story.

What do you mean by “playing” the victim? If Lumumba was subject to racial vilification is he not an actual victim of racism? Where does the “playing” come into it?

 

[Toump Ass]

"The gender empathy gap" has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read and it's in a thread about Lumumba complaining about having to take shrooms to deal with being at Collingwood.

<3 bigfooty <3

 

[Oraaaaazio]

Im glad you let us all know you're in the Adam Goodes camp before ignoring Heritier's claims of racism inside the club and that you think he is flog.

Denouncing racism toward one man whilst validating racism toward another man because he's a tool is validating all racism. There is no excuse, ever.

Yeah the things that im uneasy with Harry as an indigenous person is he is living in los anglers asking to get paid for a racism story that should be free from the heart. If you care so much about racism changing why aren't you in Australia helping like past players adam goodes etc. I'm blessed to live in australia as its a better place than most and people aren't so arrogant like america. There is racism everywhere in the world and its terrible upsetting. Harry is caught up living in America's crisis moment so he probably seeing things on the streets now first hand making his head tick. MICK MALTHOUSE coached him for 7 years yeah when the racism started and buckley only coaching Harry for 2 years where he stopped the racism nick name calling at there club. You can't pick and choose Harry, name all coaches/players like Malthouse. Name the other people and don't just attack the two who you obviously dislike because they traded you out of the football club a very long time ago.

1 - His name isn't Harry
2 - He isn't indigenous, his was born in Brazil to a Brazillian mother & father of Congolese/Angolan descent. Black =/= Indigenous*
3 - Who cares where he lives? You can call out injustices from anywhere and good on him
4 - How do you know when the racism started & stopped? From Buckley's public comments it's quite clear that Buckley didn't adequately address the issue, he's even gone so far as to pretend he hadn't heard it and tried to invalidate Heritier's comments by referring to his mental state
5 - He is obviously not wanting to name & shame and that is fine, that's his choice. There are multiple players who have verified his claims & of course those who participated aren't going to admit to it publicly.

*edit: or do you mean you're indigenous?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Im glad you let us all know you're in the Adam Goodes camp before ignoring Heritier's claims of racism inside the club and that you think he is flog.

I have no doubt he was accurate and that it’s not isolated to Collingwood or AFL their is casual racism throughout society which has been imbedded in most Australians since birth. I was just pointing out that the general public’s dislike for Harry has nothing to do with race.

 

[Lsta062]

And I don't agree. There are loads of people out there with opinions on all matter of things which essentially have nothing to do with them. Look at you. You're doing it right now. People with no relevant skill set, knowledge or experience, will tell actors how to act, doctors how to doctor, footballers how to football and further, how to live, think and express themselves publicly. This happens all the time to people from all manner of races, backgrounds and ethnicity, including as pertains to cultural practice and expression.




There's nothing else you posted that changed the context. You made a stupid comment about thieves and looters and it deserved to be pulled up.

Sorry, who are "these people"? This just sounds like some representative heuristic.

What am I doing? If you could clarify that then it would be great!

I made a stupid comment about thieves? Again, if you bothered to understand the context of why I brought it up then you would understand that I wasn't at all saying that they should not be called out. You were just nitpicking and assuming.

"These people" is a generalised term and refers to people that behave like my post outlined. I don't think I need to specify because you can just see a few of them in this thread.

 

[Oraaaaazio]

Yes i am deadley (indigenous) and there is also indigenous Brazillians derr. You sound so sour. You cant just pick and choose droping two name's getting payed for media pot shot stories and sit on your arse doing nothing to help our COMMUNITYS learn and grow as one helping the solution. Like i said in other posts he has been a victim of racism like i have but there's better ways to go about this than trying to sound like an American politician who's bitter seeking attention. In my opinion he is a pusy not naming everyone. Buckley grew up in darwin with indigenous kids playing footy with and lived in sa, qld and Victoria working with many different cultural people.....

He can go about addressing the racism he faced however he wishes. Post it on Facebook from LA, talk about it on the news, stand on top of a building & scream it or write it in the surface of the moon if he likes.

You can think he's a pussy for not throwing names out there but if he named the players he'd cop it for that from other people too, can't win in that regard. Buckley growing up with indigenous kids means two fifths of **** all really, pretty strong parallel between that comment & white people who use the "I'm not racist, some of my best mates are black" line as if that means anything. He was complicit in the racism Lumumba faced and went so far as to pretend he didn't know about it. I know he has to act in the best interests of the club but that's a situation where you can't compromise your character & just have to stand up and say it happened, it's not right & you're sorry. I really doubt anything will come of it and it will continue to be covered up but I hope this all results in a serious internal conversation between Collingwood officials & they apologise to Heritier and any other players who dealt with this shit.

 

[DapperJong]

Please stop you're not very smart.

pusy

 

[NoobPie]

This is straying a little off-topic so this will be my last comment on it. Apologies for slightly derailing the thread

Except for the fact that you're saying that he's being dramatic for calling out and I quote "Australian style, non-malicious casual racism"

Source? Not challenging you, I'd just like to read a bit more about this

Racism that occurred in the 1990s and was shamefully covered up. It's an undeniably disgusting chapter in the club's history. It's terrible that the abuse took so long to come to light. I'm glad the club helped with investigations



Yet it's shameful that something like this could have ever happened.

But to clarify a few things, in the 1990s Roman Abramovich was not the owner of the club, he took over in June of 2003. Since this incident, the club has done a lot to rectify and educated about racism. Since then Chelsea has been vocal against racist abuse punishing racist abuse from fans and has taken several public stands against racism. For example last week




Anyway, that's the end of that tangent. It is undeniable what my soccer club did was racist and disgusting. Change has occurred since but that doesn't right the wrongs of the past.

Back to Lumumba, I'd like to see the sources you've used for your information so that I can further educate myself

Wow, a social media post of players taking a knee really makes up for grotesque systemic racial bullying of teenagers (and apparently in some cases pre teens).

Your OP and subsequent posts have made this out to be a current "culture of racism" at Collingwood that needs "calling out". It is slanderously presented as fact. Collingwood actually has money where its mouth is programs fighting indigenous disadvantage

The Barrawarn Program continues to grow

Collingwood's leading Indigenous community program, the Barrawarn Program is continuing to provide employment for Indigenous youths in 2017.

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

My "sources", of course, are from anonymous social media. The fact that people haven't come out publicly and given an alternative characterisation / version of events does not validate Lumumba's characterisation. No reasonable person would expect them too.

The characterisation that Lumumba has a long history of undeniably histrionic and grandiose behaviour and this is just another addition is far more compelling than he was subjected to malicious racism at Collingwood. As such these periodic "what about mes" (this time in the context of people protesting being killed by police) are actually themselves malicious attacks

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

That is a stupid comment.
Robin Williams was a comedian, jovial in the public eye 24/7.
He killed himself.
Spud Frawley the same.
Perception and reality are never the same.
Proud people Hide there hurt to their own detriment.
Speaking out is hard especially when you know people like yourself are waiting on your keyboard to throw shit at you.
Sad really.

Yeah he has some real issues, he needs help. I think its a bit over the top and I am not very 'liberal' in my views but end of the day I'd prefer he gets some help v the alternatives. He was very happy for a number of years but something got to him and he has found it hard to deal with. Happens to lot of people.

 

[Restricted Free Agent]

Wow, a social media post of players taking a knee really makes up for grotesque systemic racial bullying of teenagers (and apparently in some cases pre teens).

At the very least you could have actually read my post.

It is undeniable what my soccer club did was racist and disgusting. Change has occurred since but that doesn't right the wrongs of the past.

My "sources", of course, are from anonymous social media. The fact that people haven't come out publicly and given an alternative characterisation / version of events does not validate Lumumba's characterisation. No reasonable person would expect them too.

Please share them, I'd love to see them for myself and couldn't find anything about them anywhere when I looked

Collingwood actually has money where its mouth is programs fighting indigenous disadvantage

The Barrawarn Program continues to grow

Collingwood's leading Indigenous community program, the Barrawarn Program is continuing to provide employment for Indigenous youths in 2017.

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

Incredibly commendable and great to see the club doing something like this. I'm not trying to make this out as a "current culture of racism" at Collingwood I have no doubt that the club is a great inclusive place to work. However, even though it's not currently the culture at the club, it was and the club should apologise to Lumumba as he suffered as a result of it.

 

[newcastlefalcon]

so, many BigFooty users are still horrible at discussing all things Lumumba related, just as they were in 2013.....

Good on him for speaking up - again.

I come on Bigfooty not every day and it is the messages like many posted on this thread that make it easy not to log and see so much intolerance.
Sometimes it so hard for an individual to speak out at the time but the hurt does not simply go away with the passage of time, we only have to look at the enduring hurt from the Stolen Generation, from kids who were taken into care, from the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody to reflect upon just because the hurt happened years ago doesn't mean that it doesn't still hurt.
Changing the culture of institutions and organisations does not happen quickly and requires leadership that is not evident in the Lumumba situation. Surely just looking at what is happening in the USA including the Colin Kaepernick situation might lead us to think that things and people need to change there and here.

 

[Oraaaaazio]

Please stop you're not very smart. The way he goes about things delivering the same message the same way over the past 5 years isn't working or connecting people closer together is it. Better ways to express and do thing's to deliver the message across eg, like reach out and sit down with those people over a coffee and educate them while they learn and apologize bringing people together pusy. ACTIONS speak louder than screaming article word's that no one listens to .

Well there ya go, Collingwood/Buckley/McGuire/the players are the ones whose actions need to do the speaking, not Heritier's. He doesn't need to fix anything, racism is the perpetrator's responsibility to solve, not the victim's.

Anyway mate once you resort to personal jibes you've lost the debate as far as I'm concerned, I'm comfortable with my position and knowledge on the issue. I was never changing my stance on any of this as I'm confident I'm on the right side of the discussion, I thought maybe you'd come around to some of what I had to say but doesn't seem that way & I'm happy to move on and disagree on this. All the best.

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

Chimp?

ahhhh . Yeah that’s pretty farkn bad hey...

.roll in the dumb right wing guys talking about how comparing people to animals is not necessarily racist. Arghhh. Bigfooty has too many numpties

You are racist against the numpites. Apologize. You can't be bullying people on internet forums.

 

[Black white]

He can go about addressing the racism he faced however he wishes. Post it on Facebook from LA, talk about it on the news, stand on top of a building & scream it or write it in the surface of the moon if he likes.

You can think he's a pussy for not throwing names out there but if he named the players he'd cop it for that from other people too, can't win in that regard. Buckley growing up with indigenous kids means two fifths of fu** all really, pretty strong parallel between that comment & white people who use the "I'm not racist, some of my best mates are black" line as if that means anything. He was complicit in the racism Lumumba faced and went so far as to pretend he didn't know about it. I know he has to act in the best interests of the club but that's a situation where you can't compromise your character & just have to stand up and say it happened, it's not right & you're sorry. I really doubt anything will come of it and it will continue to be covered up but I hope this all results in a serious internal conversation between Collingwood officials & they apologise to Heritier and any other players who dealt with this shit.

Do you. That's nice. Danks for your input. You sound bitter. Your team hasn't lost yet. In fact you should win this week, cheer up

 

[Oraaaaazio]

Do you. That's nice. Danks for your input. You sound bitter. Your team hasn't lost yet. In fact you should win this week, cheer up

That's such a clever joke....

Some fans blind loyalty to their club is embarrassing.. some Essendon fans through the drug saga, sure. Not me. You with this topic which has obviously struck a nerve is another fine example.