Harry Taylor vs Josh Gibson

[Adam H]

Gibson is allowed to get most of his stats as he's the worst user by foot. Never gets a player sit on like a few other Hawk backs and opposing teams know if he kicks it it's there best chance to get it back.

 

[MinerBoy]

Gibson is allowed to get most of his stats as he's the worst user by foot. Never gets a player sit on like a few other Hawk backs and opposing teams know if he kicks it it's there best chance to get it back.

Gibson has excellent skills.

How else would you like to try and talk him down?

 

[Adam H]

Gibson has excellent skills.

How else would you like to try and talk him down?

Not better than the others.

 

[MinerBoy]

Not better than the others.

Better than Taylor.

But it's an irrelevant point anyway. He isn't 'allowed' to get the ball.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Better than Taylor.

Not 100% on that, Taylor has a raking and accurate left foot.

 

[MinerBoy]

Not 100% on that, Taylor has a raking and accurate left foot.

I have no doubt his leg is longer, in Bruce speak. Gibson is a beautiful user though.

Regardless, Adam H's point that Gibson is only getting touches because the opposition want him with the ball is completely farcical.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I have no doubt his leg is longer, in Bruce speak. Gibson is a beautiful user though.

Regardless, Adam H's point that Gibson is only getting touches because the opposition want him with the ball is completely farcical.

Yeah, agreed.

 

[tenderwarrior]

Harry Taylor is an upmarket Andrew Mackie

So you voted Taylor then?

 

[Adam H]

I have no doubt his leg is longer, in Bruce speak. Gibson is a beautiful user though.

Regardless, Adam H's point that Gibson is only getting touches because the opposition want him with the ball is completely farcical.

It's a very loose term that he is allowed but it is preferred he gets it.

 

[tenderwarrior]

Both are great players, but are different type of players. At their best Taylor is a CHB who can play off his man and occasionally provide a target up forward, while Gibson is a third or fourth defender who is great as a third man up at a contest and at setting up play from the back half of the ground.

If I was to compare Gibson to a Geelong player of the last decade, I would probably think Milburn is the best 'like for like'. The main difference is Geelong had Scarlett/Harley/Tayor/Egan so that Milburn rarely had to sacrifice his more natural game, while Gibson often had to play as a key back before Hawks recruited Lake and Frawley.

I selected Taylor because he is a better one-on-one defender, and I would take a good CHB over a good third Defender, but as 'footballers' both are fantastic and every AFL side would love to have either of them.

Gibson/Milburn I don't really know either, both will be seen as greats of their respective clubs, and trying to determine who is better in my opinion is just splitting hairs. There is no doubt that both Hawthorn and Geelong fans have been very spoiled for the last decade or so.

 

[Bardo State]

Gibson has played less as a third/fourth tall at Hawthorn than Roughead has as a ruckman, Puopolo has as a back pocket or Gary Moss played in total. So I don't know why people are pigeon-holing him as such, it's certainly not the role where he won his Best and Fairests.

He just happens to do all the things a third/fourth tall should do better than anyone else in a role they're not even playing.

 

[tenderwarrior]

Gibson has played less as a third/fourth tall at Hawthorn than Roughead has as a ruckman, Puopolo has as a back pocket or Gary Moss played in total. So I don't know why people are pigeon-holing him as such, it's certainly not the role where he won his Best and Fairests.

He just happens to do all the things a third/fourth tall should do better than anyone else in a role they're not even playing.

You could base a conspiracy theory including parallel universes and some glitch in the matrix on the phenomenon of Gibson and what role he primarily plays. In my world he matches up on a third or fourth forward about half the games, and then sometimes plays totally as a loose man in defence, sometimes as a tall depending on match ups, and this is validated by numerous direct personal eyewitness accounts and dozens of observed televised occurrences, which are backed up by several internet sites and statistical records! however, in other people's experience he is a bonifide KPD who takes a key forward more times than not!

The truth is out there.. What can't be denied is that he is a bloody good player, whatever universe you find yourself stuck in.

 

[Bardo State]

You could base a conspiracy theory including parallel universes and some glitch in the matrix on the phenomenon of Gibson and what role he primarily plays. In my world he matches up on a third or fourth forward about half the games, and then sometimes plays totally as a loose man in defence, sometimes as a tall depending on match ups, and this is validated by numerous direct personal eyewitness accounts and dozens of observed televised occurrences, which are backed up by several internet sites and statistical records! however, in other people's experience he is a bonifide KPD who takes a key forward more times than not!

The truth is out there.. What can't be denied is that he is a bloody good player, whatever universe you find yourself stuck in.

Gibson came to Hawthorn in 2010. Lake in 2013. Lake also missed most of 2014 (played 11 games, thankfully Schoenmakers and Spangher stepped up and played about 15 in his absence, rotating between forward and defense). Frawley came to the club in 2015, missed the middle of the year and spent a lot of it up forward (including from the time he returned until the prelim). So the 2015 GF, the 2014 GF where Spangher played in defense, and about half a dozen games here and there where there was some combination of two other key defenders playing as well as Gibson, you're right; he has played as a third tall.

There are also the other 100+ games he has played for Hawthorn as the first/second tall minding an opposition key forward. He does get to be third up at a lot of contests. He does rack up neat disposals across half back. He does do some very nifty ground ball work. That's not because he isn't playing on a key forward, it's because he's actually a very good player.

And Gibson has never. ever. ever. played without an opponent in his time at Hawthorn.

Then again, maybe I'm lying and the elusive Hawthorn 5-loose-man-defense-playing-on-nobody ft. Brian Lake has actually been a thing this whole time.

 

[tenderwarrior]

Gibson came to Hawthorn in 2010. Lake in 2013. Lake also missed most of 2014 (played 11 games, thankfully Schoenmakers and Spangher stepped up and played about 15 in his absence, rotating between forward and defense). Frawley came to the club in 2015, missed the middle of the year and spent a lot of it up forward (including from the time he returned until the prelim). So the 2015 GF, the 2014 GF where Spangher played in defense, and about half a dozen games here and there where there was some combination of two other key defenders playing as well as Gibson, you're right; he has played as a third tall.

There are also the other 100+ games he has played for Hawthorn as the first/second tall minding an opposition key forward. He does get to be third up at a lot of contests. He does rack up neat disposals across half back. He does do some very nifty ground ball work. That's not because he isn't playing on a key forward, it's because he's actually a very good player.

And Gibson has never. ever. ever. played without an opponent in his time at Hawthorn.

Then again, maybe I'm lying and the elusive Hawthorn 5-loose-man-defense-playing-on-nobody ft. Brian Lake has actually been a thing this whole time.

As I said above, we are in different world's. Trippy isn't it.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

There are also the other 100+ games he has played for Hawthorn as the first/second tall minding an opposition key forward.

And has been found wanting several times in that role, especially against the Cats during the streak period.

 

[MinerBoy]

As I said above, we are in different world's. Trippy isn't it.

You are. daannn277 hit the nail on the head....and I've explained it quite a few times previously in this thread also.

It's lazy analysis (or convenient to suit an incorrect argument) by anyone who just rolls off the "he plays 3rd or 4th tall".....or even more so "he doesn't play on anyone".

 

[MinerBoy]

And has been found wanting several times in that role, especially against the Cats during the streak period.

Yeah maybe once or twice but the bags were generally kicked by the opponents of Cheney/Schoenmakers. I reckon Pods probably kicked an actual bag on Gibbo once when he snagged a half D.

 

[tenderwarrior]

You are. daannn277 hit the nail on the head....and I've explained it quite a few times previously in this thread also.

It's lazy analysis (or convenient to suit an incorrect argument) by anyone who just rolls off the "he plays 3rd or 4th tall".....or even more so "he doesn't play on anyone".

I don't think it is lazy at all. Hawks often play with a 7-man defence, and some times Gibson is that spare man. It is not meant to be derogatory in any way. There was a reason Hawks targeted Lake and Frawley, and that was because Gibson simply wasn't suited to playing as the main defender, not through a lack of footballing ability, but through a lack of size. Gibson sometimes still plays as a key back, that is something I have already stated above, especially on the more mobile forwards (Franklin and McCarthy etc), but the role he plays MOST weeks is as the third/fourth tall which allows him to use his great spoiling skills to come over the top to spoil the main forward as 'third man up'.

And Gibson has never. ever. ever. played without an opponent in his time at Hawthorn.

That is just a silly comment.

I have found Fan Footy to always be quite accurate..
http://www.fanfooty.com.au/players/year.php?firstname=Josh&surname=Gibson&year=2015

 

[MinerBoy]

I don't think it is lazy at all. Hawks often play with a 7-man defence, and some times Gibson is that spare man. It is not meant to be derogatory in any way. There was a reason Hawks targeted Lake and Frawley, and that was because Gibson simply wasn't suited to playing as the main defender, not through a lack of footballing ability, but through a lack of size. Gibson sometimes still plays as a key back, that is something I have already stated above, especially on the more mobile forwards (Franklin and McCarthy etc), but the role he plays MOST weeks is as the third/fourth tall which allows him to use his great spoiling skills to come over the top to spoil the main forward as 'third man up'.

That is just flat out incorrect.

MOST weeks he plays as a KPD.

SOMETIMES, but due to circumstances very rarely, he might play as the 3rd tall.

 

[Bardo State]

I don't think it is lazy at all. Hawks often play with a 7-man defence, and some times Gibson is that spare man. It is not meant to be derogatory in any way. There was a reason Hawks targeted Lake and Frawley, and that was because Gibson simply wasn't suited to playing as the main defender, not through a lack of footballing ability, but through a lack of size. Gibson sometimes still plays as a key back, that is something I have already stated above, especially on the more mobile forwards (Franklin and McCarthy etc), but the role he plays MOST weeks is as the third/fourth tall which allows him to use his great spoiling skills to come over the top to spoil the main forward as 'third man up'.



That is just a silly comment.

I have found Fan Footy to always be quite accurate..
http://www.fanfooty.com.au/players/year.php?firstname=Josh&surname=Gibson&year=2015

I meant that he hasn't played as a designated loose man, despite appearing as such. Hawthorn hasn't really played a 7-man defense since 2011, when it was necessary due to a small and often weak defense. Most of the time he's zoning off a resting ruck or less important tall. I guess it's a quasi-loose man in defense but not the 2011-era designated 7th man where Hawthorn would concede an extra number at the contest.

I'm really interested to know who you thought played as the key defenders for Hawthorn through 2011-2014 if Gibson was spending his time as a third tall.

 

[Elite Master]

Gibbo is a fine attacking defender that can play on forwards of all different types, is a good spoiler and sets up a lot of offense, but he also generally takes the 2nd or 3rd key forward, plays the 3rd man up a lot and can get exposed badly by the bigger power forwards. Taylor has more credibility because he generallycan handle the #1 forward and is a better, accountable lock down defender.

 

[tenderwarrior]

I'm really interested to know who you thought played as the key defenders for Hawthorn through 2011-2014 if Gibson was spending his time as a third tall.

I never said anything about 2011-2014. My comments are all related to now, and based primarily on 2015. If you read my posts you will see that I have spoken about Gibson playing primarily as a KPD early on, and he simply wasn't big enough - why do you think Hawthorn targeted Lake and Frawley if Gibson was big enough to play that role to a high level?

I meant that he hasn't played as a designated loose man, despite appearing as such. Hawthorn hasn't really played a 7-man defense since 2011, when it was necessary due to a small and often weak defense. Most of the time he's zoning off a resting ruck or less important tall. I guess it's a quasi-loose man in defense but not the 2011-era designated 7th man where Hawthorn would concede an extra number at the contest.

That is generally a third tall defender yeah? Some other times he has been playing on a resting mid or high half forward like Geelong's Matty Stokes. Sometimes he takes the main forward like Franklin..

Gibson has played less as a third/fourth tall at Hawthorn than Roughead has as a ruckman, Puopolo has as a back pocket or Gary Moss played in total.

Anyway, I won't be commenting any further in this thread. For what it is worth, Gibson is probably my most favorite Hawthorn player, so my comments haven't been made to downplay his football abilities..