Has Malthouse Been A Failure?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

yes, you have been, by your own link to ODN's synopsis. Thanks for that

.

1994-2001 doesn't necessarily mean every year of that period. The official transgressions in the 2002 penalties were for Stephen O'Reilly circa 2000/2001 and for promising under the table payments to Silvagni and Bradley in their most recent contracts, which definitely wouldn't have encompassed 1995.

There was an agreement in 1992/3 with Diesel to pay him a certain amount of money outside the cap, the bulk of which paid in 1993 and 1994. $49k was paid in 1995. However Carlton had declared the payment under the 1993 moratorium. Not sure why we were allowed to continue to pay it but when it was raised by the ATO in court years later, Carlton told the media we had reported it at the time, and the AFL confirmed we had no case to answer for it. Some smoke around, but nothing conclusive about 1995.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

You better speak to ODN about his synopsis then.

Give me a break. It was written years ago, and while I was aware there were specific breaches relating to specific players, that was the only article I turned up at the time. The point of that whole thread was to show that other teams had breaches as well. Not sure why it is an issue now.

 

[FuManchu]

.

1994-2001 doesn't necessarily mean every year of that period. The official transgressions in the 2002 penalties were for Stephen O'Reilly circa 2000/2001 and for promising under the table payments to Silvagni and Bradley in their most recent contracts, which definitely wouldn't have encompassed 1995.

There was an agreement in 1992/3 with Diesel to pay him a certain amount of money outside the cap, the bulk of which paid in 1993 and 1994. $49k was paid in 1995. However Carlton had declared the payment under the 1993 moratorium. Not sure why we were allowed to continue to pay it but when it was raised by the ATO in court years later, Carlton told the media we had reported it at the time, and the AFL confirmed we had no case to answer for it. Some smoke around, but nothing conclusive about 1995.

Of course, they conveniently sidestepped 1995 in their systematic salary cap cheating from the years 1994 to 1998 and beyond. It all makes sense now!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Of course, they conveniently sidestepped 1995 in their systematic salary cap cheating from the years 1994 to 1998 and beyond. It all makes sense now!

They might have sidestepped it in other years as well. The point is that some journo naming a period of time, does not equate to each year within that time frame. There could have been something in 94, something in 98, something in 01 and he simplified it as 94-01.

As I said, why bring it up now. Isn't this a Malthouse thread?

 

[FuManchu]

Give me a break. It was written years ago, and while I was aware there were specific breaches relating to specific players, that was the only article I turned up at the time. The point of that whole thread was to show that other teams had breaches as well. Not sure why it is an issue now.

I am saying that the cheating done then has had an effect on the list even now.

They got a suspended sentence from that 1994 to 98 cheating.

in 2002, when they were found to have rorted again in the 2000/01 seasons, the AFL imposed drafting sanctions because of this suspended sentence breach

The impacts of that 2002 sanction are still being felt today. The recruitment of Judd is a direct result of that ban being imposed. The club needed someone to bring hope to the club, starved of success for longer than they were used to. Terry wallace argued 4 years ago, that there would be a price to pay for devoting over 20% of your cap to one player. A price that included diluting the list structure in terms of having a steady flow of A grade players in all categories such as age, talent and position. Swann attacked him backed then, but now is admitting that the list has structural issues.

Wallace the other week said that once Judd is gone, you will have one A grade player in his mid 20s and none other than Murphy that will be in the ideal mid to late 20's bracket in 3 or so years. There are no others yet identified coming up through the ranks. he says you need at least 4 A graders to have a real shot at a flag. there is more to it than this, but this is just a precis of my argument

 

[TheOutsider74]

I am saying that the cheating done then has had an effect on the list even now.

They got a suspended sentence from that 1994 to 98 cheating.

in 2002, when they were found to have rorted again in the 2000/01 seasons, the AFL imposed drafting sanctions because of this suspended sentence breach

The impacts of that 2002 sanction are still being felt today. The recruitment of Judd is a direct result of that ban being imposed. The club needed someone to bring hope to the club, starved of success for longer than they were used to. Terry wallace argued 4 years ago, that there would be a price to pay for devoting over 20% of your cap to one player. A price that included diluting the list structure in terms of having a steady flow of A grade players in all categories such as age, talent and position. Swann attacked him backed then, but now is admitting that the list has structural issues.

Wallace the other week said that once Judd is gone, you will have one A grade player in his mid 20s and none that will be in the ideal mid to late 20's bracket in 3 or so years. There are no others yet identified coming up through the ranks. he says you need at least 4 A graders to have a real shot at a flag. there is more to it than this, but this is just a precis of my argument

Wow! Someone who quotes Terry Wallace.

 

[FuManchu]

Wow! Someone who quotes Terry Wallace.

His ideas on list structures are still relevant. You need a mix of different ability players in the various age brackets, and the various positions. If you don't get the mix right, you end up having a hole that can severely limit a clubs tilt at success. List management is a very complex matrix.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I am saying that the cheating done then has had an effect on the list even now.

They got a suspended sentence from that 1994 to 98 cheating.

in 2002, when they were found to have rorted again in the 2000/01 seasons, the AFL imposed drafting sanctions because of this suspended sentence breach

The impacts of that 2002 sanction are still being felt today. The recruitment of Judd is a direct result of that ban being imposed. The club needed someone to bring hope to the club, starved of success for longer than they were used to. Terry wallace argued 4 years ago, that there would be a price to pay for devoting over 20% of your cap to one player. A price that included diluting the list structure in terms of having a steady flow of A grade players in all categories such as age, talent and position. Swann attacked him backed then, but now is admitting that the list has structural issues.

Wallace the other week said that once Judd is gone, you will have one A grade player in his mid 20s and none other than Murphy that will be in the ideal mid to late 20's bracket in 3 or so years. There are no others yet identified coming up through the ranks. he says you need at least 4 A graders to have a real shot at a flag. there is more to it than this, but this is just a precis of my argument

Nah, the 2002 penalties are not affecting us at all now. We missed out on Goddard and Wells for crying out loud. There is a school of thought that being terrible after that gave us Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer so it all evens out. What people don't take into account is the aging list with a giant hole in the middle of our age groups.

We lost Silvagni in 2001, Bradley and Christou in 2002, McKay, Ratten, Hickmott in 2003 and our best player Kouta was never the same after his knee injury in 2001. We were ready for a huge slide down the ladder.

As for needing more A graders, there is still much potential for existing players to become A graders by the time Judd goes. Kreuzer is getting better and better and so is Henderson. Walker is close to being an A grader now, and is a shot for AA. Yarran if he applies himself has all the skills to become an A grader. Wallace is making the mistake of thinking that anybody on the list who isn't an A grader now, will never be considered one.

 

[FuManchu]

By bringing Judd to the club, and his sheer brilliance in some ways also has had an effect on the list. he pretty much dragged the club up the ladder, but only enough to be lower part of the 8. The problem with being lower part of the 8 is firstly, you really dont have a real shot at the flag. but longer term, if you stay there too long, you miss out on the elite drafting talent. So then you have to rely on trades to try and get a top choice. but you havent really traded all that well, the folly of bringing Warnock to the club when you already had Hampson, who is similarly talented, is evidence that your trading was flawed in the early period of Judd.

I'm not saying Carlton shouldn't have gone for Judd, but there are always consequences for getting a player of his ilk.

So, now you have a situation where Judd never brought that success that was desired. His recruitment meant you couldnt go out and induce other A graders to the club because of how much salary cap he chewed up. You couldnt even go out and get a few good B graders.

So now your list is in the situation where you have one long term A grader who is mid 20's. None coming thru the ranks that is readily identifiable. Gibbs and kruezer are servicable but not players that at this stage seem willing to drag the club along like Judd did and murphy occasionally does. Bringing in 10 players next season means a clean out of experience, or players that are keeping you therabouts. But there are no quick fixes these days and I cant see Malthouse being there in the next 5 years or more to see that thru. And I can see a malthouse so desiring of success to shove back in McGuires face, getting increasingly petulant, as he has shown even this early in his tenure.

 

[FuManchu]

Nah, the 2002 penalties are not affecting us at all now. We missed out on Goddard and Wells for crying out loud. There is a school of thought that being terrible after that gave us Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer so it all evens out. What people don't take into account is the aging list with a giant hole in the middle of our age groups.

We lost Silvagni in 2001, Bradley and Christou in 2002, McKay, Ratten, Hickmott in 2003 and our best player Kouta was never the same after his knee injury in 2001. We were ready for a huge slide down the ladder.

As for needing more A graders, there is still much potential for existing players to become A graders by the time Judd goes. Kreuzer is getting better and better and so is Henderson. Walker is close to being an A grader now, and is a shot for AA. Yarran if he applies himself has all the skills to become an A grader. Wallace is making the mistake of thinking that anybody on the list who isn't an A grader now, will never be considered one.

They better stand up soon, henderson I agree could be something special. But beware what MM does to some players. he can confuse them by taking away their flair and trying to turn them into robots. As for yarran... will he be there long term? Really?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

By bringing Judd to the club, and his sheer brilliance in some ways also has had an effect on the list. he pretty much dragged the club up the ladder, but only enough to be lower part of the 8. The problem with being lower part of the 8 is firstly, you really dont have a real shot at the flag. but longer term, if you stay there too long, you miss out on the elite drafting talent. So then you have to rely on trades to try and get a top choice. but you havent really traded all that well, the folly of bringing Warnock to the club when you already had Hampson, who is similarly talented, is evidence that your trading was flawed in the early period of Judd.

I'm not saying Carlton shouldn't have gone for Judd, but there are always consequences for getting a player of his ilk.

So, now you have a situation where Judd never brought that success that was desired. His recruitment meant you couldnt go out and induce other A graders to the club because of how much salary cap he chewed up. You couldnt even go out and get a few good B graders.

We were an inexperienced basketcase when Judd came. We had no idea how to win. Prior to his arrival, any half decent player looking for another club, almost mocked us when turning us down. Akermanis and Hall were two examples of this. Judd never had to win a flag with us to justify getting him. His mere presence probably stopped more of a dispirited bunch from wanting out. It seems nobody outside of the club quite understands how important Judd was, both for our progress and for our psyche.

So now your list is in the situation where you have one long term A grader who is mid 20's. None coming thru the ranks that is readily identifiable. Gibbs and kruezer are servicable but not players that at this stage seem willing to drag the club along like Judd did and murphy occasionally does.

Kreuzer is certainly inspirational on the field. The guy is all heart. A grader classification is so subjective. As I said Kreuzer, Henderson, Walker, Yarran, and Betts, Gibbs and Jamison are all capable of playing like A graders. I have no problem if they share the load around. Menzel is one to watch coming through but that's a potential thing at this stage.

Bringing in 10 players next season means a clean out of experience, or players that are keeping you therabouts.

10 changes won't be affecting our top line players too much. Your Ellard, Davies, Joseph, O'Keeffe types are in this grouping. Nothing to fret about and not player that are keeping us thereabouts.

But there are no quick fixes these days and I cant see Malthouse being there in the next 5 years or more to see that thru. And I can see a malthouse so desiring of success to shove back in McGuires face, getting increasingly petulant, as he has shown even this early in his tenure.

Maybe so. I don't drink Mick's bathwater, that's for sure. I think he will be looking at the top line players I mentioned and getting a balance around them, not replacing them. Our biggest issue is mental IMO. We do need another gun or two to go into flag contention territory however.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

They better stand up soon, henderson I agree could be something special. But beware what MM does to some players. he can confuse them by taking away their flair and trying to turn them into robots. As for yarran... will he be there long term? Really?

I mentioned this in our podcast. Mick does blunt flair in favour of a defensive mindset and we are an instinctive team. Time will tell whether he gets the balance right.

No idea about Yarran. Eddie and Garlett are good mates so he has incentive to stay. Has had a run in with Mick already so it will depend on whether he sucks it up and listens. He is a freakishly good player when he applies himself. Could be whatever he wants to be, it's up to him. My only point is he is a potential A grader.

 

[FuManchu]

So, now you have a situation where Judd never brought that success that was desired. His recruitment meant you couldnt go out and induce other A graders to the club because of how much salary cap he chewed up. You couldnt even go out and get a few good B graders.

We were an inexperienced basketcase when Judd came. We had no idea how to win. Prior to his arrival, any half decent player looking for another club, almost mocked us when turning us down. Akermanis and Hall were two examples of this. Judd never had to win a flag with us to justify getting him. His mere presence probably stopped more of a dispirited bunch from wanting out. It seems nobody outside of the club quite understands how important Judd was, both for our progress and for our psyche.



Kreuzer is certainly inspirational on the field. The guy is all heart. A grader classification is so subjective. As I said Kreuzer, Henderson, Walker, Yarran, and Betts, Gibbs and Jamison are all capable of playing like A graders. I have no problem if they share the load around. Menzel is one to watch coming through but that's a potential thing at this stage.



10 changes won't be affecting our top line players too much. Your Ellard, Davies, Joseph, O'Keeffe types are in this grouping. Nothing to fret about and not player that are keeping us thereabouts.



Maybe so. I don't drink Mick's bathwater, that's for sure. I think he will be looking at the top line players I mentioned and getting a balance around them, not replacing them. Our biggest issue is mental IMO. We do need another gun or two to go into flag contention territory however.[/quote]
Anyway, it's only opinion. There is no empirical measurement on success other than premierships in my opinion.

I am still of the belief that what happened nearly 20 years ago, is still impacting on what's happening now and could impact another 5 to 10 years down the track.

Someone at some stage needs to get all the elements of the list right for you to have a realistic tilt at the flag. The fact that there will a large upheaval at years end, in my opinion tells me you are at least another 5 years away. MM is 60ish now. You do the maths

 

[Monkey King]

Are you guys happy to toss poo at each other? If so, I'll just leave the thread.

Lock the thread mate. The "Collingwood going backwards under Buckley" thread was locked for a far less deviation off topic than what's just taken off in this thread. This isn't even a discussion anymore - although ODN is making a noble resuscitation attempt - it's just some Bay-worthy smack talk.

 

[Pie eyed]

LOL.....Love the denial, maybe look what's happening at your own club

What's happening?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

What's happening?

Cant you smell whats cooking at Collingwood?

 

[JustaBattler]

I am saying that the cheating done then has had an effect on the list even now.


Wallace the other week said that once Judd is gone, you will have one A grade player in his mid 20s and none other than Murphy that will be in the ideal mid to late 20's bracket in 3 or so years. There are no others yet identified coming up through the ranks.

You seem to have a lot of faith in what a known muppet has to say about teams - you can take Wallace and put him next to your other Barbie dolls and enjoy privately.

 

[FuManchu]

You seem to have a lot of faith in what a known muppet has to say about teams - you can take Wallace and put him next to your other Barbie dolls and enjoy privately.

You better give them back first

 

[Falchoon]

Cant you smell whats cooking at Collingwood?

Yes.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Big challenge for the Blues now, first to do what Collingwood couldnt do (beat the Suns in Qld) and then do what the Tigers could do.....beat the Dockers at home.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Big challenge for the Blues now, first to do what Collingwood couldnt do (beat the Suns in Qld) and then do what the Tigers could do.....beat the Dockers at home.

Very true

 

[Madblue]

Cant you smell whats cooking at Collingwood?

Yes something rotten by the way you guys are going under Buck's

 

[forwardflanker]

By bringing Judd to the club, and his sheer brilliance in some ways also has had an effect on the list. he pretty much dragged the club up the ladder, but only enough to be lower part of the 8. The problem with being lower part of the 8 is firstly, you really dont have a real shot at the flag. but longer term, if you stay there too long, you miss out on the elite drafting talent. So then you have to rely on trades to try and get a top choice. but you havent really traded all that well, the folly of bringing Warnock to the club when you already had Hampson, who is similarly talented, is evidence that your trading was flawed in the early period of Judd.

I'm not saying Carlton shouldn't have gone for Judd, but there are always consequences for getting a player of his ilk.

So, now you have a situation where Judd never brought that success that was desired. His recruitment meant you couldnt go out and induce other A graders to the club because of how much salary cap he chewed up. You couldnt even go out and get a few good B graders.

So now your list is in the situation where you have one long term A grader who is mid 20's. None coming thru the ranks that is readily identifiable. Gibbs and kruezer are servicable but not players that at this stage seem willing to drag the club along like Judd did and murphy occasionally does. Bringing in 10 players next season means a clean out of experience, or players that are keeping you therabouts. But there are no quick fixes these days and I cant see Malthouse being there in the next 5 years or more to see that thru. And I can see a malthouse so desiring of success to shove back in McGuires face, getting increasingly petulant, as he has shown even this early in his tenure.

A+ post imo, especially the bit about Carlton's fascination with the "quick fix" and it's incompatibility with the modern game

 

[mysainters]

Will learn a bit about him tomorrow.

Carlton beat the favourites in north last week, yet in the past were every chance to lose to the suns this week.

 

[forwardflanker]

MM has definitely changed this side but it's highly debatable whether it has been an improvement. For the second year in a row they probably won't make the 8 and several players have gotten worse under his coaching. How much longer are the board gonna give MM if these performances continue?