Hawks Can't pull a crowd on their own

[serenityNow]

Well in fairness Hawkk over the past 6 seasons we have been the 15th worst team and carlton 16th worst in the League. This you will agree is a fact.

In that time Richmond's average attendance over 132 games has been about 500 ahead of carlton's or just about exactly what you expect when two clubs with almost identical support are almost equally poor for a period of time.

In 4 of the pst 6 and 8 of the past 12 seasons (with most big Carlton games at the G) Richmond have outdrawn Carlton while we have been statistically the weakest team in the game.

In this decade in "G"/Dome games we outdraw then V Freo. They outdraw us V Port.

Far from being debatable ALL the evidence. ALL of it as shown above shows that Carlton and Richmond have remarkably identical levels of support.

And we have been at the MCG/Telstra dome for how long now?

No point bragging about out drawing carlton in the last 12 years when a great portion of the those games were played at PP, not the MCG like your mob.

 

[MadDawg]

Hawthorn better start pulling crowds on their own soon or I'm gonna start barracking for someone else. Unless there are atleast 60,000 others to validate my decisions i'm out!

 

[GAMBLER]

We will never be a 'Big 4' club in terms of latent 'support'. If you asked every person in Victoria who they follow, we would be well behind the 'Big 4'.

But surely active support is more relevant important than latent support.

We are the best run of the 'middle 3' (Hawks, Cats, Saints) and we have more members and are way more profitable than 2 of the 'Big 4'.
We are not the biggest, but we are the best.

Similarly, the Dogs are the best run and biggest of the ''small 3'

Not sure I agree with you on this.

In terms of the who support who survey's Hawthorn always does very well against other Victorian clubs - ie. Herald Sun Survey.

The problem for Hawthorn has always been translating this into good crowds, which have generally been poor.

With the side finally performing on the field the crowds have grown accordingly to levels not far behind the 'Big 4' clubs which better reflects where they generally stand in the survey's

 

[memberforever]

The reality is, both are a long way behind the Essendon and Collingwood's of the AFL and probably always will, those are the truely 'big' clubs amongst the Victorian clubs.

The trouble with the dogs trying to build a big membership is the demographics we represent and the lack of on field performance. If we can play finals footy and win a premiership in the next few years, and keep working on the supporters to convert to membership, we may be able to build up a decent following.

 

[GAMBLER]

I reckon Hawthorn can get there, especially if we further tap into the 1/4 kids in Tasmania that nominate Hawthorn as their team.

This year 2/7 Melbourne based home games will be in our top 3 crowds of all time.

 

[gaelictiogar]

And we have been at the MCG/Telstra dome for how long now?

No point bragging about out drawing carlton in the last 12 years when a great portion of the those games were played at PP, not the MCG like your mob.

OK since you left PP we have outdrawn you more often than not. Whatever way you look at it our support is remarkably identical.

 

[gaelictiogar]

It doesn't really matter if we win or lose as long as we put up an okay showing, I'm assuming you'd be thinking about your game against this weekend the same way, the finals are going to be a completely different ball game anyway.

Like I said, I've got nothing against the Dogs, I just hate it when people make off the cuff statements about once off events. If you did a straw poll of people around downtown Melbourne you'd probably find the Hawks would be the 5th most supported Victorian club and the Dogs 7th or 8th with the Saints.

The reality is, both are a long way behind the Essendon and Collingwood's of the AFL and probably always will, those are the truely 'big' clubs amongst the Victorian clubs.

Leave my own club aside for a moment there is nothing, nothing at all to suggest that essendon are in some way unarguably bigger than Carlton.

Look at evidence.
Discount the Princes park factor in the years up to 2001 and Carlton's crowds at the Dome, the "G" and interstate were remarkably similar to the hugely successful Bombers.

The Blues are currently better supported and with more members.

The herald Sun for what its worth puts both clubs level.

Historically Carlton outdraw essendon throughout history.

There is NOTHING - form taken into account - to suggest essendon are in some different league to carlton. Arguably they may be marginally bigger but that would be the limit.

 

[krisholio14]

My advice to Dogs fans trying to upset their Hawthorn couterparts....

Wait till you roll em in the finals, then let the party begin.

You'll never win these kinds of arguments with Hawks fans. They all have mountains of statitics re their relative position on memberships, attendance, profit etc etc. This is what becomes of supporters of teams who haven't won anything meaningful for nearly two decades and are starting to get antsy. They also need to have these sorts of numbers to try to make their club look more significant than what it actually is. They figure the louder they yell, the more important they are, kind of like an annoying little yappy dog.

Not to mention it's a nice way to gloss over the fact that they've had to sell a decent chunk of their soul to get these off field 'rewards'

 

[Hawkk]

My advice to Dogs fans trying to upset their Hawthorn couterparts....

Wait till you roll em in the finals, then let the party begin.

You'll never win these kinds of arguments with Hawks fans. They all have mountains of statitics re their relative position on memberships, attendance, profit etc etc. This is what becomes of supporters of teams who haven't won anything meaningful for nearly two decades and are starting to get antsy. They also need to have these sorts of numbers to try to make their club look more significant than what it actually is. They figure the louder they yell, the more important they are, kind of like an annoying little yappy dog.

Not to mention it's a nice way to gloss over the fact that they've had to sell a decent chunk of their soul to get these off field 'rewards'

Fair point.

Leave my own club aside for a moment there is nothing, nothing at all to suggest that essendon are in some way unarguably bigger than Carlton.

Look at evidence.
Discount the Princes park factor in the years up to 2001 and Carlton's crowds at the Dome, the "G" and interstate were remarkably similar to the hugely successful Bombers.

The Blues are currently better supported and with more members.

The herald Sun for what its worth puts both clubs level.

Historically Carlton outdraw essendon throughout history.

There is NOTHING - form taken into account - to suggest essendon are in some different league to carlton. Arguably they may be marginally bigger but that would be the limit.

Essendon generated massive crowds to their MCG games in the mid to late 1990's, there attendances and membership have halted in proportion to what it was against other Victorian clubs in the 1990's.

They've also attracted a huge amount of bandwagoners on the back of their 1990's success that 'barrack' for the Bombers without actually ever going to games.

Historically, Melbourne are the 5th most supported club of all time...

 

[gaelictiogar]

Essendon had a charismatic coach, a charismatic young team ladder topping consistently and were the best in the business. In those circumstances of course they drew huge. They are a huge club. However compare G/Dome/Interstate venues in 1993 to 2001 when they were both going well and you will find Carlton barely a few percentage points behind essendon and ahead in some years. I did this exercise some time ago but have lost the file but trust me the difference was irrelevant.

Carlton strong 1993/2001drew almost as well as Essendon slightly stringer.
carlton weak 2002/07drew almost as well as Richond slightly stronger.
Essendon strong drew slightly better than carlton strong.
Richmond stronger drew slightly better than Carlton slightly weaker.

Over extended periods and form taken into account all 3 are within a few percentage points of each other.

 

[Hawkk]

Essendon had a charismatic coach, a charismatic young team ladder topping consistently and were the best in the business. In those circumstances of course they drew huge. They are a huge club. However compare G/Dome/Interstate venues in 1993 to 2001 when they were both going well and you will find Carlton barely a few percentage points behind essendon and ahead in some years. I did this exercise some time ago but have lost the file but trust me the difference was irrelevant.

Carlton strong 1993/2001drew almost as well as Essendon slightly stringer.
carlton weak 2002/07drew almost as well as Richond slightly stronger.
Essendon strong drew slightly better than carlton strong.
Richmond stronger drew slightly better than Carlton slightly weaker.

Over extended periods and form taken into account all 3 are within a few percentage points of each other.

Look at these clubs crowds against non Victorian based opposition. Essendon are a fair way in front of Carlton and Essendon when it comes to drawing crowds against opponents where the majority of the crowd comes from their own support bases.

Have Carlton or Richmond drawn 69,000 against Sydney or 57,000 against West Coast?

 

[gaelictiogar]

You make an interesting point and I confess I don't know the stats.

Comparing carlton and Essendon in 1993 to 2001 when they were roughly similar in success and when at the Dome or G ( not PP) against WA or SA opposition would be interesting. I know that Carlton and Richmond home support is almost identical in 2002 thru 2006 with us slightly ahead V freo and them slightly ahead V port. The differences are minimal in both cases thus giving a further indication of their essentiallly equal pulling power.

 

[Hawkk]

The biggest crowd either Richmond or Carlton have drawn to a home game vs. a non Victorian based club is 41,077 against Adelaide (by Carlton) this year

 

[gaelictiogar]

The biggest crowd either Richmond or Carlton have drawn to a home game vs. a non Victorian based club is 41,077 against Adelaide (by Carlton) this year

In Carlton's good years up to 2001 they played all inter states at PP. Had they played them at bigger venues it is likely they would have drawn similarly to Essendon since on all comparable indices that is exactly what they did.

It would be interesting to find a comparison but the PP factor prevents it in truth.

 

[11sjw]

My advice to Dogs fans trying to upset their Hawthorn couterparts....

Wait till you roll em in the finals, then let the party begin.

You'll never win these kinds of arguments with Hawks fans. They all have mountains of statitics re their relative position on memberships, attendance, profit etc etc. This is what becomes of supporters of teams who haven't won anything meaningful for nearly two decades and are starting to get antsy. They also need to have these sorts of numbers to try to make their club look more significant than what it actually is. They figure the louder they yell, the more important they are, kind of like an annoying little yappy dog.

Not to mention it's a nice way to gloss over the fact that they've had to sell a decent chunk of their soul to get these off field 'rewards'

Have a look at the title of this thread and the OP. That is why Hawks fans are in here defending their club. They didn't start this thread but how could they not respond to it?

 

[gaelictiogar]

In Carlton's good years up to 2001 they played all inter states at PP. Had they played them at bigger venues it is likely they would have drawn similarly to Essendon since on all comparable indices that is exactly what they did.

It would be interesting to find a comparison but the PP factor prevents it in truth.

Very rough quick calculation Hawkk on Carlton and Essendon in the 9 years from 1993 to 2001 when they were similarly successful. Essendon with 2 flags from 7 finals seasons and 129 H+A wins. Carlton with 1 flag from 7 finals and 124 H+A wins. Overall Essendon marginally but only marginally ahead.

A decent broad brushstrole to eliminate the PP factor was to only include all away games - many played in Melbourne of course - in the period. A back of an envelope job reveals that over 99 comparable games in comparable venues Essendon drew c.49,000 on average to Carlton's c.46,500. A marginally more successful Essendon drawing 5to 65 more than Carlton. A gap I accept but hardly sufficient to put them in a different league.

The Carlton that were within a few percentage points of essendon in 99 comparable games in 1993/2001 were within 500 a game of richmond in 132 comparable games in 2002/07. I accept that essendon are probably are fractionally bigger than both clubs but in reality comparable stats over long periods reveal remarkable similarity.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Obviously I meant 5% to 6% in my previous comparison of 49,000 and 46,500.

 

[krisholio14]

Have a look at the title of this thread and the OP. That is why Hawks fans are in here defending their club. They didn't start this thread but how could they not respond to it?

The same way I don't respond to Hawthorn supporters trying to wind us up.

Any Hawk fan should know that Footscray supporters are in no position to be bagging other teams supporters about pretty much anything when it comes to money, assets, crowds, and well, success of any kind in general.

What was it I said about yappy dogs?

 

[11sjw]

The same way I don't respond to Hawthorn supporters trying to wind us up.

Any Hawk fan should know that Footscray supporters are in no position to be bagging other teams supporters about pretty much anything when it comes to money, assets, crowds, and well, success of any kind in general.

What was it I said about yappy dogs?

So if they do it they deserve to have the flaw in their argument pointed out to them.

 

[krisholio14]

So if they do it they deserve to have the flaw in their argument pointed out to them.

They do? Why? I'd be too worried about enjoying the footy my own team is playing to waste my time responding to some anonymous internet type with a bee in his bonnet.

My comments weren't so much to do with the OP (who owned himself big time) but more for the other Dogs fans who have come along later and gotten caught in the Hawk talons.

 

[memberforever]

Watch the Hawks crowds disappear as fast they came.

 

[Nightrain]

Would the AFL ever consider demoting Hawthorn to Etihad and bumping one of the bigger clubs to the MCG (as their respective home grounds I mean)? Say Essendon or Carlton? You know, a team who doesn't sell it's home MCG games to Tasmania?

I've always thought it unfair that we are brainwashed into accepting the grandfinal must be played at the G and then they allow a G tenant to go and sell home games, disadvantaging the away team by not allowing them to get experience on the G. Surely, a prerequisite of being a co-tenant of the G should be that you are financially stable to the point that you must play all allotted home games at the G. That goes for the Dees too.

 

[Mr Lizard]

Watch the Hawks crowds disappear as fast they came.

Watch the Bulldogs crowd make his way over to the concession stand for a lukewarm pie.

crowds for Hawthorn vs Gold Coast at MCG

2017: 27,392
2013: 28,112

 

[pacman]

It was too cold (10 Celsius) for them. Collingwood and Geelong drew 80,000 on the Friday night and it was 2 Celsius.

Hawthorn supporters are pretty ordinary.

Short memory Carlton crew.

 

[WWSD]

Watch the Hawks crowds disappear as fast they came.

A Dogs supporter talking about crowd numbers. That's cute.

Hawthorn still got the same crowd attendance against Gold Coast on the weekend as what they did in 2013 and 2014 when they played at the MCG you idiot.