Autopsy Hawks v Giants - Rd 15, 2018

[TBoyleSuperstar]

I think we need to realise we just aren't quite there yet. We're about 3qtrs there, we have good top end talent, but it drops away quickly. We have way too many players who play 1/2 to3qtrs and go missing for the remainder.
Too much is left to too few.

Still a finals chances, but have to fix up our starts

 

[lickmerocks]

Interesting times for sure.

Does making the top 8 actually do much for us or continue to paper over cracks of a pretty poor list????

We should of lost by 50+ last night but we were lucky the Giants conversion was horrendous.

That side last night without Clarkson in charge would be bottom 4.

1.Langford no idea how this bloke gets a game. People tell pressure and I tell them BS.

2.Doc is a nice bloke and our face for mental health awareness and does our videos on the website etc etc but just a trier at best. The fact he keeps getting a game is extremely worrying for me.

3. Henderson is a top up style player in a ruthless ferocious team but not going to be a part of any long term rebuild. I liken him to Shaun Grigg at Richmond. Very handy in a great team but very poor in a team that is struggling every week to put wins on the board.

4. Tim O’Brien fumbles and falls over and drops marks that he should take. Long term I have massive worries.

5. Daniel Howe. My goodness.... where do I start. I have said this on here for 12 months and keep getting belted. Again he try’s but far out what does he offer? No leg speed, lacks game awareness and turns the ball over by foot. We have to find a better option than Dan and yes he is young and has a decent body.

6.Roughead... This is the hardest one to talk about after what he has gone through but the game has well and truly passed the big fella. His judgement with balls coming in has deserted him and he no longer impacts games when we need a captain to stand up.

Injured high paid players-
Birchall 2 years with no footy. I was told 15 months by someone inside that we would be lucky to see Birch much again. Has bone on bone knee injury that is extremely worrying for all concerned.

Rioli- 2 years with very little footy. Twice now granted extended periods of leave from the club during this period. Time for Cyril to declare his hand so the club can start planning.

Players on our list that are cloggers-
1. ORourke- terrible pick up by the club. No other way to call it.
2. Schoenmakers 10 years on the list and can’t get a kick at Box Hill.
3. Teia Miles Does not have the body for AFL.
4. Willsmore seriously what role does he play moving forward? Was he a long term option to replac Isaac smith as he doesn’t have any physical presence about him and playing backline is not an option.

So in my mind we need to be extremely careful when analysing this list and chasing of free agents.... ie picking up a free agent or two on big money really the right thing to do and will they help us catapult from where we are to where we want to get too?

 

[Franko Armani]

Over umpired game of the year - congratulations self important ones.

 

[TylerDurden]

anted it less and yet still won.

There is definitely some of this going on.....

View attachment 520209

Absolute gold!

 

[threesixpio]

Over umpired game of the year - congratulations self important ones.

It was horrible

 

[tige19]

Interesting times for sure.

Does making the top 8 actually do much for us or continue to paper over cracks of a pretty poor list????

We should of lost by 50+ last night but we were lucky the Giants conversion was horrendous.

That side last night without Clarkson in charge would be bottom 4.

1.Langford no idea how this bloke gets a game. People tell pressure and I tell them BS.

2.Doc is a nice bloke and our face for mental health awareness and does our videos on the website etc etc but just a trier at best. The fact he keeps getting a game is extremely worrying for me.

3. Henderson is a top up style player in a ruthless ferocious team but not going to be a part of any long term rebuild. I liken him to Shaun Grigg at Richmond. Very handy in a great team but very poor in a team that is struggling every week to put wins on the board.

4. Tim O’Brien fumbles and falls over and drops marks that he should take. Long term I have massive worries.

5. Daniel Howe. My goodness.... where do I start. I have said this on here for 12 months and keep getting belted. Again he try’s but far out what does he offer? No leg speed, lacks game awareness and turns the ball over by foot. We have to find a better option than Dan and yes he is young and has a decent body.

6.Roughead... This is the hardest one to talk about after what he has gone through but the game has well and truly passed the big fella. His judgement with balls coming in has deserted him and he no longer impacts games when we need a captain to stand up.

Injured high paid players-
Birchall 2 years with no footy. I was told 15 months by someone inside that we would be lucky to see Birch much again. Has bone on bone knee injury that is extremely worrying for all concerned.

Rioli- 2 years with very little footy. Twice now granted extended periods of leave from the club during this period. Time for Cyril to declare his hand so the club can start planning.

Players on our list that are cloggers-
1. ORourke- terrible pick up by the club. No other way to call it.
2. Schoenmakers 10 years on the list and can’t get a kick at Box Hill.
3. Teia Miles Does not have the body for AFL.
4. Willsmore seriously what role does he play moving forward? Was he a long term option to replac Isaac smith as he doesn’t have any physical presence about him and playing backline is not an option.

So in my mind we need to be extremely careful when analysing this list and chasing of free agents.... ie picking up a free agent or two on big money really the right thing to do and will they help us catapult from where we are to where we want to get too?

This is a brilliant post man, hard to argue with it at all. I also understand what you're saying about Jono but for the first time in his whole career he has gone 3 months playing footy without injury, he needs to play senior games so we can either scratch him or persist.

The Rioli thing is really frustrating, I desperately want to see him playing footy but I feel that's not going to happen. He needs to declare his hand, we need to know what he's doing (not what's happened privately because that's his business but simply his intentions for footy).

FYI - Tim Obrien had 0 tackles (worst on ground) and only 7 pressure acts (worst on ground). So not only was he fumbling around, luckily not having a bag kicked on him due to bad goal kicking but he also provided 2c of f-all defensive pressure.

 

[PhatHQ]

I appreciate your post mate, for one you try to support your views with some evidence based points and fail to get personal like so many other gronks here so hats off my man.

One thing I get is he has the "tools", I've never denied that. He can jump, has a good tank, is a very good field kick and on the rare occasion has shown an ability to mark the footy (very bloody rare). But what I also see is an 11 possession 3 mark a game guy that's been giving the same performances now as he did when he was 21, his impact on games has not improved, he still doesn't provide the marking option that we so badly need and consistently makes horrible errors that elite footballers shouldn't make.

I feel the move to defence is Clarko trying to find a way to play him, he is all but useless as a forward so a role trying to shut down a forward is his only other option. Yes it's true he wasn't our worst, however had Patton kicked straight he would have had 4-5 goals kicked on him, he was very lucky.

For us to contend we can't have our bottom 3-4 consist of TOB, Langers, Doc and Henderson. I say Hendo because he is a downhill skier, no slight on him that's just the way he plays his footy (a mighty good downhill skier to).

Once T Lynch is playing forward I think there is room for TOB to be a good bottom end of the list player over others, at the very least a long term depth player

 

[A Cut Above]

Cats will be lucky to be in the eight. Last night was an eight point game.

Is it really a big deal? We aren't winning the flag this year, we don't have the cattle. It would be nice to make the finals but unless you're in a position to genuinely contend I don't see that it matters much, unless you're a club like Melbourne who haven't made them in years. In a 'superdraft' year you could almost argue finishing lower down the order is more advantageous in the long term.

We've improved on last year, got games into JOM and the kids, and so long as neither Sydney nor Geelong win the flag I'd call that a successful season.

 

[Briar Gold]

Don't think we can single out the usual suspects for this loss. Lots of players were down and we simply didn't have the skills, intensity or organisation to win.

Like that we were somehow still in it and kept them working hard.

Tom Mitchell will need 2 x shoulder reconstructions in the off season.

I've always been a JOM supporter but it's time he impacts contests more frequently.

And I reckon it's a bit harsh to criticise Rough. The entires were truly horrible and he was our only target. We looked good recently lowering our eyes but either the options weren't there or we forgot to look.

Hopefully Gunston's return is enough to straighten the forward line up next week.

 

[Mr Lizard]

7 playing Linkin Park's in the end hurts.
RIP Chester

 

[Mrzohs]

First of all not to bad a result the boys showed a bit of fight and character, we were lucky we didnt lose buy more. G.w.s are a smokey and starting to play like the 2nd best team, they will make the top 4 if they beat w.c next wk
Every team has 4-6 players that are pretty average the competition doesn't have the depth since the expansion clubs and where all paying for it.

Again yesterday highlighted the two key aeras of concern we need to address in the off season,

A over relianace on tom, Howe and hendo went missing.
A key forward roughy plays high up the ground. Tob doesn't get the job done. Cegs is competing.

Moving fwd, no more langers,tob, hendo.
I would much rather see games into the boxhill guys and decide if we are keeping them eq jor&willsmore,Lovell,cousins etc. B.hill wasn't a great vfl player but excelled at a.f.l.

The dogs and Essendon games will decide if we make the 8 this yr.

 

[Thaihawk]

Umpires were shit. Who cares about the numbers. You can call them out for being shit and still know what we did wrong to lose the game at the same time.

The very soft decision to Lobb, they both had arms around, that got their ball rolling, and his confidence sky high gave them a huge mental advantage I thought. Then there were the number of incorrect disposals, where no connection was made with the footy, but were cleared, and resulted in scores to GWS.

I am not saying the umpires favoured the suns, just that after Lobb got his first, he fluked a couple and they were a very confident tam, which we outscored for the remainder of the game. Although I have not seen the last quarter, I am very proud of the boys.

I think another of Clarko's proteges had the better of him on the night; the number of times we were outnumbered at a congestion, and on the spread was amazing. WE could be lucky that Bevo stirred his mob into a frenzy this week and not next.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Our bottom 6 players are a disgrace

 

[sohsam]

Add those 4 in their prime and we are top 4 and give it a shake.

Probably talking about another 4 players on top of that, another backman, another midfielder, another runner, another forward. That is is to get us back into contention, and that is all it is. In the 3 peats, we had a healthy list, were hungry, came across interstate teams and other victorian teams not quite at the peak of their powers. There have been so many past teams like St Kilda with reiwolt era and plugger/frawley area that had the cattle but not won premiership for one reason or another.

 

[Numtums]

Interesting times for sure.

Does making the top 8 actually do much for us or continue to paper over cracks of a pretty poor list????

So in my mind we need to be extremely careful when analysing this list and chasing of free agents.... ie picking up a free agent or two on big money really the right thing to do and will they help us catapult from where we are to where we want to get too?

Absolutely the "at least we made the 8" badge is nothing to write home about.

This list is nowhere near where it's rated on this board. Previous deeds cloud people's judgement unfortunately.

Seasons end, Rough, Burgers, Birchall and Rioli move on at a minimum. Who currently even 80% replaces them?

There is absolutely zero key position depth. Play Lewis ffs!! (Mafia never thought they'd see me post that )

Big free agents will not join this list as Clarko will not offer someone a Godfather offer. We might get a Mitchell that is excited about a project and starved of game time, or an Impey style project player, but anyone else isn't coming. Gaff, maybe? Lynch (bung knees aside) dreaming. Wrighty, find us the next Gunston please, it aint TOB!

We need to take our medicine through the draft. Offload the cloggers or above average 28+ type talents on the list and get the next batch through.

Games, games, games into the kids likely to be around in 3 years time. Everyone else, City Oval.

One mans tanking is another mans list management.

 

[sohsam]

I wish it was true but I don't think it's so. We need to be creative in getting the list on track. There are probably 10 spots on the list that need upgrading.

This really highlights that just getting Tom Lynch on its own is not getting us into premiership contention

 

[thejockey]

Is it really a big deal? We aren't winning the flag this year, we don't have the cattle. It would be nice to make the finals but unless you're in a position to genuinely contend I don't see that it matters much, unless you're a club like Melbourne who haven't made them in years. In a 'superdraft' year you could almost argue finishing lower down the order is more advantageous in the long term.

We've improved on last year, got games into JOM and the kids, and so long as neither Sydney nor Geelong win the flag I'd call that a successful season.

It will be a successful season then

 

[Numtums]

Probably talking about another 4 players on top of that, another backman, another midfielder, another runner, another forward. That is is to get us back into contention, and that is all it is. In the 3 peats, we had a healthy list, were hungry, came across interstate teams and other victorian teams not quite at the peak of their powers. There have been so many past teams like St Kilda with reiwolt era and plugger/frawley area that had the cattle but not won premiership for one reason or another.

The expansion is the missing ingredient in our threepeat that is rarely spoken about by Hawks fans. Our run was timed with perfection with good management as much as good luck. Fair play Clarko!

The state of the current competition is pathetic. Mugs like the Tigers and Dogs are winning flags and Collingwood sit second. De Goey is the next Dustin Martin, 50 free kicks is not unusual and there's about 100 footballers that should be struggling to get on a VFL list in days gone by that are on AFL senior lists thanks to the 18 team comp. Strange times.

GWS is pulling their chop about last night, but all I see is a raw talent side, coached by a moron that would not have got within 7 goals of the 2012/13 Hawks!

Our 15 side was not a great Premiership winning side, but it would lick anything currently going around.

 

[BigMick1]

Just about summed up where we are at last night, we really struggle against teams with hard contested ball winners and pace. Bit of a worry next week against the dogs who have both..

Depth has been mentioned in the previous posts and it is spot on, when we have injuries we just can't cover players of the Ilk of Burgers and Gunston, don't think think Clarko has many options but to play the usual suspects, obviously ORourke, Shoenmakers, Heatherly, Whitecross, Wilsmore , etc.. aren't up to it and will be delisted next year.

Like a mid range team we don't travel well, wouldn't expect to win away from the G or Tassie again this year.

The umpires didn't cost us the game but were embarrassingly bad last night, footy is becoming very hard to watch..

Apologies for the gloom but very disappointing to lose to them with so much on the line.

 

[daniel23]

Yes we were competitive but last night for me was the sign where we need to look at doing a rebuild and hit the draft. O'Brien , Langford and duryea are not only 3 of the worst players at our club but in the whole league and the fact theres no youth pushing them out is concerning but I also understand how stubborn clarko can be and trust the players who play a role . Our recruiting has been impeccable with the picks the clubs have had but it's becoming obvious how poor our list is outside our star players .

Mitchell, o'meara, hardwick, Sicily , burton are the future, i also like glass, impey , Ross and worpel once he plays inside the midfield and not out of position, Morrison is tidy but like his junior days cant win enough ball . Outside of that no one will be around For the Cubs next flag . If the club can gain a star through agency great but getting top 20 picks in this apparent super draft has to be priority and I would like to see it .

 

[thejockey]

I think we need to realise we just aren't quite there yet. We're about 3qtrs there, we have good top end talent, but it drops away quickly. We have way too many players who play 1/2 to3qtrs and go missing for the remainder.
Too much is left to too few.

Still a finals chances, but have to fix up our starts

Very fair summary, places us right in the just make it or miss catergory

 

[Crankyhawk]

Lobbe.... Wasn't supposed to play. Kicks 3 in the 1st q... 2 very, very arsey ones. Gunston a late out, Glass comes in and drops a simple (crucial) mark in the last.... There's the game.

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

Glass also did some good things to (recall a chasing tackle that saved a goal). Yes there were some fumbles but I can see that he has scope to improve. While TOB not even gathering a simple handball...

 

[Roughies Boys]

lickmerocks Howie has one of the best disposal efficiencies in our midfield.... so everyone else should go also then.

 

[OnceKicked50]

One loss in the past month, against a difficult match-up and away from home, and it's the same shit on here. No good. Rebuild. Draft. List cloggers. Langford. Doc. O'Brien. Roughy is cooked.

We are probably sitting (win - loss) about where the list is at. We are not underachieving, or overachieving. But some posters on here carry on like blatant sooks.

Surely it can't be a massive surprise we lost last night? was always a 50/50 game.

If anything, I take some positives from the fact we were so poor (it happens to most teams if you've not been watching this year) and still had chances to pinch the win.

I was nervous by the dogs next week, but not after how we played last night. Our mids will be smarting and I expect we will come out firing next week.

Finals is very important for the development of our list. I suggest those with ambivalence towards this start following St Kilda.

 

[Mercy Seat]

A lot of the classic Doc / Langers bashing in this thread.

Footy is a stronglink sport (read Malcom Gladwell if you don't know the term). These guys are premiership players and play well in strong teams with good top end talent. Their lack of talent gets exposed when the top end talent of the team isn't as strong. Every team has these players, and even we did during the premiership years (look back now at some of the spuds in any premiership team...).

The reality is that we had roughly 6-8 elite / A graders during our most successful eras. We had at best 2-3 on the park every week at the moment (sans Rioli), and it's showing. The only way we bust back into contention is with some elite recruits and a couple of our guys stepping up from B to A grade (Burton, O'Meara, Hardwick..?).

Don't worry about the bottom end of the list, that will sort itself out.