Hawthorn fans and their enormous whole of insecurity

[witsend]

Of course. Every premiership team needed a slice of good fortune (along with talent, perspiration, etc) These days it's harder than ever to win a flag, with 16 teams all competing from the same level playing field and not much separating 1st from 16th.

I said it before the 2008 GF and I said it after it. Tight GFs are won not by the top 6 players but by the bottom 6. The stars tend to even each other out. I thought our bit players had shockers while yours eg Dew pulled rabbits out of their hats when asked.
Coupled with our appalling missed opportunities in Q2 the die was cast.
We had the Hawks on the ropes in that quarter, but to their credit they just scrapped and scraped and forced us wide like a punch drunk boxer who just refuses to go down. Then some moments of magic in the 3rd quarter from the Hawks put the doubt in Geelong's minds and gave Hawthorn the hope required.
But having said all that Geelong is clearly a better team in terms of talent and structure, but we were taught a painful lesson about commitment and perseverance by Hawthorn.
It remains to be seen if we learned from it.

 

[Chewy]

I’m sorry Chewy but could you elaborate on how Geelong playing pretty well on the day somehow translates to Hawthorn’s best football being superior to Geelong’s.

Maybe I’m misconstruing what you’ve written, but are you suggesting that Geelong played their best footy (given you couldn’t ask for a better performance)? Did anyone else see it like this?

According to you, one couldn’t have asked for a better performance from Geelong, who played as they had all year. Yet also according to you, aspects of Geelong’s performance could be described as; “terrible play”, “disgraceful”, “ignored teammates and went for the glory”, “inept play”, “garbage inside 50s”, “blind kicks in hope”, “dinky shit football” and “weak attempt”. Maybe having watched Geelong games over the past two years that’s what you’ve come to associate with their best footy but I would think you’re somewhat alone there.

In my opinion Hawthorn saw their opportunities, stood up and made the most of them. Geelong on the other hand, were presented with similar opportunities only to squander many of them with disappointing and inconsistent play. As a result, Hawthorn won, as they thoroughly deserved to. They were the better and more deserving team on the day and that is what is required to win a premiership. Congratulations.

You're getting confused from all those games where you watched Geelong destroy a succession of over-matched opponents. You think all those floggings is Geelong at their best, but when a team actaully stands up and gives a bit back, all of a sudden it means that the Cats simply did not play well. A slightly arrogant attitude.

Most of Geelong's good players did all that could be expected of them on GF daY (unlike 4 of Hawthorn's Top 6 players) the Geelong players kept most of their opponents in check, they found plenty of ball, they shared it around as always. Unfortunately for you, they were not given the same latitude that they'd grown accustomed to. Hawthorn put the Cats under heavy physical and mental pressure and the Cats could not execute as they normally would. Hawks have better skills under pressure than 14 other teams and did not turn the footy over as much as the Cats would like.

The "dinky shit football" works against Melbourne or Port or whatever. Your 10 goals up. Your opponents have given up. They're outnumbered. The intensity has dropped away. Harley or Johnson can do a squibby kick round-the-corner to Stokes and he can run into the open goal as you akll wave your "Go Cats" flags. But lo and behold, you find things tougher on Grand Final day against a fierce, relentless opponent.

It's funny really, when you consider that most of the "experts" had placed doubts on whether Hawthorn's gameplan (and players) would stand up under the September blowtorch. Who'd have thunk it was Geelong who'd succumb to the pressure? Hawthorn were in good stead and better prepared from their home and away season, learning from their losses, adapting to injuries, trying different things, learning to play with greater flexibility, different tactics, etc, etc.

Yes, Hawthorn took their opportunities, just the same as Geelong "took their opportunities" in all of their harder fought victories over the past 2 seasons. Thin back to game against Freo at Subiaco... Freo shot themselves in the foot, gave the Cats the slightest sniff and the Cats said "thank you very much!" What about the Hawthorn game in round 17. Hawthorn wasted a ton of easy chances. They also gifted Geelong a few easy opportunities. Cats said "Thank you very much!" Preliminary Final in 2007. Magpies could've won. But Geelong were steadier and more composed and took their chances.

This is the common denominantor for most close-fought games of football.

You've just forgotten what it's like to lose. And when it happens, you're like everyone else...

But, but, but, but.... We shoulda won... We coulda won... Shoulda... coulda... Bloody umpires! Fricken lucky Hawks! Bloody injuries! Bloody Varcoe! Bloody Lonergan! Hacks! We're still better than them! What happened!

The losers lament... Heard it all a million times before... Only the names have been changed...

That being said, you are choosing to judge the entire ability of the Geelong football team on the basis of one game. So Geelong are "flat track bullies" because we lost one game to a team that played better? Hang on, haven't we beaten every team over the past two years at least once? Didn't that include your mob in Round 17? Or wait, did that one not count because Hawthorn weren't playing at their best? Actually according to you, Round 17 somehow proved that Hawthorn's best is acutally superior to Geelong's.

Hawthorn's A-game may have been better than anything else Geelong had encountered that year and Geelong were beaten fair and square by a more committed unit. But as much as you want it to Chewy, that does not mean that Hawthorn are definitively a better football team than Geelong.

I never said Hawthorn were "definitively a better football team than Geelong". The past season has taught me that such tags are for the dreamers and poindexters (the people in the media, writing their 'little stories')

I used to go along with this bullshit thinking and care about which team was the "best", whether this team is "better" than that team. But following the Hawks' rise since 2004 and watching them triumph in 2008 has made me realise that it's all bullshit. It bears no relation to the actual game of football, what it's all about, how games are won, how flags are won, what players must sacrifice, etc, etc.

It's just people's useless opinions dressed up as facts.

Footballers aren't robots. Football teams are not race cars. Peformances vary from week to week. Some teams play better against certain teams, but struggle against other teams.

Maybe most people would agree that Geelong were a better team than Hawthorn in 2008. The home and away would indicate that Geelong were a better team over the season. But in the end, none of that twaddle helped the Cats. Two teams squared off and the Hawks proved quite conclusively that they were the better team on the day (and thoughout September IMO)

That's the great thing about footy. We don't have judges holding up scorecards, giving their subjective scores out of 10. We have a scoreboard to settle the argument.

Geelong kicked badly in the GF and missed a couple of sitters (but not nearly as many as most people think) Bad kicking is bad football. A cliche. But consider this (and this is not trolling) Why should Geelong be considered superior because their key forward is a bit of lemon who succumbs to pressure and sprays his kicks? Maybe this part of the reason why Geelong are not as good as they like to think. Pretty easy to look a million bucks when your team is 10 goals up, your opponents are overwhelmed and your supreme midfield is supplying the ball on a platter. The real test is how players perform when placed under pressure.

If Geelong had played more games against really good opposition - not played the top teams once only from rounds 1-22 - also played more games against opposition who served it up to the Cats and didn't drop their heads, then maybe the cats would've been better prepared for the GF.

Just my opinions...

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

If Geelong had played more games against really good opposition - not played the top teams once only from rounds 1-22 - also played more games against opposition who served it up to the Cats and didn't drop their heads, then maybe the cats would've been better prepared for the GF.

At least the 08 GF guranteed us two games v Hawthorn, we have 2 v the Bulldogs, still only 1 v St Kilda and Collingwood this season. Seems we are constantly getting an inordinate amount of games against interstate sides, who happen ot be not much chop at this point in time.

 

[Chewy]

Geelong is clearly a better team in terms of talent and structure, but we were taught a painful lesson about commitment and perseverance by Hawthorn. It remains to be seen if we learned from it.

I would've thought that of the 3 games of football played between Geelong and Hawthorn from 2007-2008, that Geelong clearly DO NOT have a "better team in terms of talent and structure"

The actual evidence would indicate there is not much between the two sides in terms of talent and structure.

But you prefer to base your opinions on Geelong's superior consistency and their ability to grind beaten opponents into the dust.

How will you learn from the painful lessons of last September if you continue to strut around and believe that you're the gods of football?

See the contradiction?

 

[Chewy]

At least the 08 GF guranteed us two games v Hawthorn, we have 2 v the Bulldogs, still only 1 v St Kilda and Collingwood this season. Seems we are constantly getting an inordinate amount of games against interstate sides, who happen ot be not much chop at this point in time.

I'm not too confident that round 1 will provide the GF replay blockbuster that many people are hoping for.

Geelong seem to be at the top of their game, even this early on. Hawks are very scratchy and underdone. I hope it's a close one. But it probably won't be. Geelong will itching to kick our heads.

Bay 13 will go into overdrive as Cat fans and trolls proclaim this as proof that the 2008 GF was an aberration and the Hawks were lucky. Bay 13 Hawks will make excuses, or beat their chests some more and say we won the game that counted, how we don't care about the round 1 stoushes, etc, etc. Cat fans and trolls will use this as further motivation to flame Hawk fans, perhaps mention Stokes superior round 1 stats to Rioli, or herald Scarlett's "ownership" of Franklin.

Please don't be disappointed if I make a tactical retreat. I can see it all unfolding and already I feel very, very tired. Very weary...

Good luck for the season, LLD. Let's hope our teams both make it back to the Grand Final in good shape for Smackdown II, or whatever... Revenge Of The Handbaggers, or Tassie Dawks Silencing The Doubters Once And For All... something like that.

 

[Dangerwooodlett]

whoever wins in rnd 1 will prove 1 thing - that team was better on the day.

i'm sick of all this BS about who is superior... in reality, you can NEVER have 2 teams "playing at their best"... so all this "Cats at their best is better than Hawks at their best" and vice versa talk is BS.

Fact is Cats lost the game that mattered most last year. Hawks won the flag. Hawthorn were better than Geelong on that day. Who is better in Rnd 1? Whoever wins. Doesn't definitively prove one team is better than the other. Its all subjective. Only time will tell...

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I'm not too confident that round 1 will provide the GF replay blockbuster that many people are hoping for.

Geelong seem to be at the top of their game, even this early on. Hawks are very scratchy and underdone. I hope it's a close one. But it probably won't be. Geelong will itching to kick our heads.

Bay 13 will go into overdrive as Cat fans and trolls proclaim this as proof that the 2008 GF was an aberration and the Hawks were lucky. Bay 13 Hawks will make excuses, or beat their chests some more and say we won the game that counted, how we don't care about the round 1 stoushes, etc, etc. Cat fans and trolls will use this as further motivation to flame Hawk fans, perhaps mention Stokes superior round 1 stats to Rioli, or herald Scarlett's "ownership" of Franklin.

Please don't be disappointed if I make a tactical retreat. I can see it all unfolding and already I feel very, very tired. Very weary...

Good luck for the season, LLD. Let's hope our teams both make it back to the Grand Final in good shape for Smackdown II, or whatever... Revenge Of The Handbaggers, or Tassie Dawks Silencing The Doubters Once And For All... something like that.

Hmmm some good ideas there. It would be a little embarassing to see much written about the round 1 result, however the Hawks have positioned themselves nicely. Are you sure we won't see you around should your Hawks get up?

I will call it Smackdown II: Electric Boogaloo. Here's hoping, enjoy the season Chewy.

 

[Mephistopheles929]

You're getting confused from all those games where you watched Geelong destroy a succession of over-matched opponents. You think all those floggings is Geelong at their best, but when a team actaully stands up and gives a bit back, all of a sudden it means that the Cats simply did not play well. A slightly arrogant attitude.

...

Just my opinions...

You're right, I am getting confused. Some of your posts over the last couple of pages are a little confusing; maybe we could clear a few things up…

You say you don’t care for all the bullshit about which team is the best because such things are merely “people’s useless opinion dressed up as fact” yet you say things like “Hawthorn proved their best football is superior to Geelong’s”. Sounds like someone stating a fact to me but maybe I'm just reading useless opinion?

You say that one couldn’t have asked for a better performance from Geelong and that many of our players did all that could be expected of them yet you also used terms such as “disgraceful”, “terrible”, “garbage” and “inept” to describe their quality of play on Grand Final day. Don’t really know about you but those aren’t the words I would use to describe my expectations for what Geelong’s performance was going to be.

Bad kicking is bad football. Right, so we agree Geelong played bad football. But wait, turns out that Geelong “played pretty well on the day”. Huh.

Maybe it has something to do with all of Geelong’s floggings. They, after all, couldn’t be used to judge Geelong’s “best” football. That’s obviously only done when they beat quality sides like Hawthorn in Round 17. But wait, all Round 17 was able to do was prove that Hawthorn’s best football is superior to Geelong’s. Care to elaborate Chewy?

Four of your best six didn’t perform to expectations? Those expectations wouldn’t have anything to do with averages generated from playing over-matched opponents would they. You’re too used to seeing Buddy and Roughy rack up the shots on goal against the cellar dwellers Chewy. Wouldn’t it be a slightly arrogant to suggest that they could play at a level like that when a team stands up and gives a bit back?

Aside from all of this nonsense I do actually agree with the bulk of what your saying Chewy. By and large Hawthorn hasn’t received enough credit for their performance on Grand Final day. Too many people, including many Geelong supporters, have been too dismissive of the game, claiming that poor kicking at goal was all we needed to overcome the Hawks and the rest would’ve been a walk in the park. Hawthorn were more determined, better prepared and more flexible and the fact that Geelong was 23-1 meant nothing on the day. Hawthorn deserved the premiership.

But at the same time your too dismissive of Geelong, refusing to admit that Geelong’s disappointing performance could be the result of anything other than how Hawthorn’s pressure and game style affected the Cats and the over-inflated opinions held by many of a team too accustomed to running up the score.

I agree that footballers aren’t robots or race cars and as you said; their performances vary from week to week. So why is it so hard for some Hawthorn fans to admit that Geelong played poorly aside from everything to do with Hawthorn? Geelong put on a disappointing display of football that was far from their best. Teams don’t only play as well as their opponents let them, it has something to do with it yes, but it isn't the sole factor.

 

[Chewy]

Yeah, I agree with your post, Mephisto. I think we're getting somewhere. I don't mean to confuse you with my apparent contradictions, just pushing certain points of view, providing an alternative and speaking dogmatically in an attempt to dispel certain myths.

eg people have said Geelong played like shit, etc. Okay fair enough, there are aspects to their performance they would be very disappointed with, but on the whole, I don't think they played as badly as has been made out by some folks. They also did a lot of things right.

Yes, Mitchell, Franklin and Roughead had quieter games than by their usual standards. Yes, the opposition was better. But I also think they could've played a bit better too, all things considered. It is no different to people's perception of Geelong's seasonal highwater mark and their actual "sub-par" GF perfoermance. That's the reason I brought it up. Not to be hypocrite, but to provide balance to the idea that Hawks were great and the Cats sucked.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I agree that footballers aren’t robots or race cars and as you said; their performances vary from week to week. So why is it so hard for some Hawthorn fans to admit that Geelong played poorly aside from everything to do with Hawthorn? Geelong put on a disappointing display of football that was far from their best. Teams don’t only play as well as their opponents let them, it has something to do with it yes, but it isn't the sole factor.

Whilst I think that your post is quite fair and constructive, I don't think it just comes down to one side playing poorly or at it's best.

It's Grand Final Day FFS, and I don't believe that Hawthorn are unique in wanting to leave every ounce out on the park for that one day. To say Geelong didn't is an insult.

Simply, we had more winners overall for the day (and you may not believe that but we did - everyone has a role, even if it's not the flashy stuff) and, as always, it came down to who's teams players 16 - 22 performed better on the day.

No disrespect to those players, but Crawf, Young & Dew would be in that bracket IMHO and they performed superbly.

 

[Mephistopheles929]

Yeah, I agree with your post, Mephisto. I think we're getting somewhere. I don't mean to confuse you with my apparent contradictions, just pushing certain points of view, providing an alternative and speaking dogmatically in an attempt to dispel certain myths.

eg people have said Geelong played like shit, etc. Okay fair enough, there are aspects to their performance they would be very disappointed with, but on the whole, I don't think they played as badly as has been made out by some folks. They did a lot of things right.

Yes, Mitchell, Franklin and Roughead had quiter games than by their usual standards. Yes, the opposition was better. But I also think they could've played a bit better too, all things considered. It is no different to people's perception to Geelong's highwater mark and their actual GF perfoermance. That's the reason I brought it up. Not to be hypocrite, but to provide balance to the idea that Hawks were great and the Cats sucked.

Fair enough Chewy. I don't mind watching you ruffle a few feathers every now and then.

You're 100% correct about the Geelong playing shit thing. People have exaggerated the level to which Geelong played poorly because as you said; they did do a lot of things right including helping to restrict the impact of Franklin, Mitchell etc. In many instances quality passages of play were not converted to goals. Sometimes due to poor decision making and execution, sometimes due to excellent defensive pressure from Hawthorn.

Bang on target again about the performances of Franklin, Mitchell and Roughead and most people's double standards.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Well played Chewy What started off as a bit of trolling evolved into something more. I agree with quite a bit of what you're saying.

It's this;

Geelong kicked badly in the GF and missed a couple of sitters (but not nearly as many as most people think) Bad kicking is bad football. A cliche. But consider this (and this is not trolling) Why should Geelong be considered superior because their key forward is a bit of lemon who succumbs to pressure and sprays his kicks? Maybe this part of the reason why Geelong are not as good as they like to think. Pretty easy to look a million bucks when your team is 10 goals up, your opponents are overwhelmed and your supreme midfield is supplying the ball on a platter. The real test is how players perform when placed under pressure.

If Geelong had played more games against really good opposition - not played the top teams once only from rounds 1-22 - also played more games against opposition who served it up to the Cats and didn't drop their heads, then maybe the cats would've been better prepared for the GF.

that strikes me in particular. The whole lot, but especially the bold bit. Yeah, our draws haven't challenged us as much as we'd like them to have. We need to cop more pressure-cooker type games for sure. Having said that I reckon Geelong have the cattle to win at least one more flag, if not several more.

I know history is littered with the corpses of 'shoulda-woulda-couldas' - ours was left on the turf of the 'G that one day in September, 2008. We dropped our heads in the GF when we should have gone for the throat. Hawthorn didn't let up and so deserved to win the flag that day.

North Melbourne suffered an eerily similar fate in 1998. Their kicking was shite, they lairised and they paid the price. But the Roos bounced back and took out the Premiership the very next year. Did they learn from their mistakes? Were they hungrier? Angrier? You bet.

Revenge will motivate the Cats this year.

 

[thebiff]

ahahaha a "whole" of insecurity? ahahahaahaha. lost any respect after that. LMAO your a loser what are you 10 years old. The refinery fumes must really be getting to you down in geelong. enjoy a future of failure in every game that counts. it is etched into your history.

geelong is a dam big "whole"
hahahaha what a loser

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

ahahaha a "whole" of insecurity? ahahahaahaha. lost any respect after that. LMAO your a loser what are you 10 years old. The refinery fumes must really be getting to you down in geelong. enjoy a future of failure in every game that counts. it is etched into your history.

geelong is a dam big "whole"
hahahaha what a loser

hahahahaha dam

hahaha

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

hahahahaha dam

hahaha

You missed hole.

 

[smasha]

A Hawthorn fan has already started up a thread because the Richmond game is close to a sellout.

 

[TheMightyAchilles]

hawks are in good form

as an aside issue i thought this might be relevant

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25166013-661,00.html

go blues

 

[STC]

ahahaha a "whole" of insecurity? ahahahaahaha. lost any respect after that. LMAO your a loser what are you 10 years old. The refinery fumes must really be getting to you down in geelong. enjoy a future of failure in every game that counts. it is etched into your history.

geelong is a dam big "whole"
hahahaha what a loser

Your a failure? Ahahahaha? Dam? Do you know what punctuation is? Capitalisation?

You might want to expand your vocabulary a bit beyond "hahaha." You look every bit the 10 year old you just called me.

Seeing as I conceded my typing error and corrected in December 2008, you also might want to learn how to read just a bit of the thread before you post. Heck, you might even look at my clearly visible location Melbourne instead of making a weak joke about fumes in Geelong.

 

[Mr Lizard]

Hodgey buried both of these in a whole, for safekeeping.

 

[localjedi]

I love these threads, Geelong supporters begin attacking Hawks, then it goes back the other way, crap flying everywhere but unfortunately it doesnt mean squat.

in 2007, Geelong were the premiers
in 2008, Hawthorn were the premiers.

Now time to enjoy the 2009 season, whatever happens!

 

[HAWKS HEROES]

hawks are in good form

as an aside issue i thought this might be relevant

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25166013-661,00.html

go blues

happened in carlton so go figure

 

[Reasonable]

Ha, whole, stupid boy.

 

[Reasonable]

Your a failure? Ahahahaha? Dam? Do you know what punctuation is? Capitalisation?

Do you no what Capitlisation is?

I bet I no a hole lot more you than you, hole heap more than you, you need two make a hole hearted apology.

Are you getting the hole story?


LOL. You are an epic failure.

 

[HAWKS HEROES]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=240897&ch=&cl=12523766&src=y7sports

 

[STC]

Ha, whole, stupid boy.

Again, you're about 3 months too late.