News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[KermitJagger]

What about the Italian mafia

The Russian Mafia is just the Italian Mafia but quicker

 

[deanc]

For those with a legal background, how would these statements hold up in a court. As they are being made anonymously, how is one to defend against them? Putting aside the obvious things like Mr Bourke etc

Difficult to ascertain as this stage as we have only heard from the claiments and a few others with supporting views whereas the respondants have only publicly made simple denials and are yet to address the specific allegations.
Despite the respective parties engaging legal counsel this issue will only be escalated beyond the AFL's domain (with civil proceedings) if either the claiments or the respondants are not satisfied with/prepared to accept the final determinations, proposed restitution or penalities/sanctions at the conclusion of the AFL's investigation - and I seriously doubt any of the parties or their legal counsels would want this...

Edit - on review I've responded without actually answering your question. If this was a separate civil case (without the AFL) the claiments 'could have grounds' for employment breaches based on discrimination leading to unfair opportunity and/or dismissal. However note, generally to win such a case the claiments would need to produce supporting evidence of their specific allegations beyond 'hearsay' - because purely in legal terms the onus is with the claiments to provide burden of proof and this is also the main reason most similar cases rarely proceed beyond mediation.
Related, in a sense the current AFL investigation with this issue is a form of mediation...

 

[MasterSamurai]

No, just flipping no! At least a couple of high uppers at HFC at the time gonna have a long few years it seems.

 

[JoeHawk]

And another article. Still hard to read with Evans now implicated and a whistle blower former coach. .

‘Bullying, intimidation’ claims allegedly part of Hawthorn report

Top Hawks were allegedly accused of running the football department like a ‘Russian mafia’.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Billyc]

For those with a legal background, how would these statements hold up in a court. As they are being made anonymously, how is one to defend against them? Putting aside the obvious things like Mr Bourke etc

Anonymous statements are hearsay and not admissible evidence. If litigated the witnesses would need to give sworn evidence and be available to be cross examined for their evidence to be considered.

The whole thing just gets more horrible with each piece of information.

 

[threesixpio]

Getting worse and worse and I fear this is drip fed info. Wouldn’t be surprising if there was far more. The cult of the coach as “life improver” is what really worries me.

 

[Brishawk]

I’m cynical about the move to have a coach involved in the afl investigation. I’m sure they all fear scrutiny and want to include their perspective but you can’t have someone from among the coaching population investigating bad behaviour of coaches without risking a conflict of interest. Even if the coach is retired. The desire to protect one’s own legacy is very strong. No coach is going to want to see other coaches go down for things they did as well.

 

[threesixpio]

I’m cynical about the move to have a coach involved in the afl investigation. I’m sure they all fear scrutiny and want to include their perspective but you can’t have someone from among the coaching population investigating bad behaviour of coaches without risking a conflict of interest. Even if the coach is retired. The desire to protect one’s own legacy is very strong. No coach is going to want to see other coaches go down for things they did as well.

Yeah it’s an interesting contribution when the inappropriateness of coaches being involved in player welfare to this extent is the issue. It may be equally inappropriate for a coach to be on this panel. I know your perspective on this BH and I think it’s spot on

 

[derp de derp]

Anyone else concerned about the financial hit this will have on the club?


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[threesixpio]

Anyone else concerned about the financial hit this will have on the club?


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Yes. Have friends revisiting their loyalty to the club atm. So **** yeah

 

[Brishawk]

Anyone else concerned about the financial hit this will have on the club?


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Do you mean the potential size of damages payable? Or other indirect effects such as loss of sponsors and members?

 

[derp de derp]

Do you mean the potential size of damages payable? Or other indirect effects such as loss of sponsors and members?

All of it, members, sponsors, attendance, legal fees.

I feel we are already in a precarious position with Tasmania/Dingley and this could really hurt!


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[threesixpio]

Do you mean the potential size of damages payable? Or other indirect effects such as loss of sponsors and members?

Likely both and that’s why a strong u turn message is needed ASAP which is easier said than done when investigations are on foot.

My main message to the club is to advertise the **** out of a current positive culture

 

[toomanysquibs]

The Russian Mafia is just the Italian Mafia but quicker

With better access to water soluble radioactive agents

 

[robiecampbellbrown]

Likely both and that’s why a strong u turn message is needed ASAP which is easier said than done when investigations are on foot.

My main message to the club is to advertise the * out of a current positive culture

Main message should be to HAVE a positive culture

 

[toomanysquibs]

Getting worse and worse and I fear this is drip fed info. Wouldn’t be surprising if there was far more.

The most shrewd media operators will develop a new lead out of every page or conversation they have on the topic.

Ultimately they want as many scoops as the material will allow, and to get eyes on their content/publication.

The drip drip is going to happen, and then each one is going to be re-spun by other media operators looking to get in on the action.

Everyone who had an axe to grind with Clarkson will be wanting their turn. That's most of them at a guess.

 

[TylerDurden]

All of it, members, sponsors, attendance, legal fees.

I feel we are already in a precarious position with Tasmania/Dingley and this could really hurt!


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Depends on the outcome of the AFL investigation and upcoming court cases.

 

[toomanysquibs]

Depends on the outcome of the AFL investigation and upcoming court cases.

So true, nothing has ever happened until it does.

Particularly when it comes to the vagaries of the Legal system. At the extreme end of the spectrum, there have been plenty of known killers walking the streets of Melbourne and appearing in Society pages when the whole city knows exactly what they've done.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Anyone else concerned about the financial hit this will have on the club?


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According to Caro, Cyril has teamed up with the other accusers and are preparing a class action against the hawthorn football club. Irrespective of the independent AFL review. They won’t be pursuing individuals it will be about us as a club, so yes, things are going to get very costly, even just in terms of preparing a defence.

And Tasmania are just one of our sponsors being urged to drop us immediately, so as things get worse this is surely a possibility as well.

 

[Billyc]

The AFL and insurers will likely foot the litigation and damages costs. The AFL is the overriding employer of the players and would be a party to any litigation. Loss of sponsors, members and AFL sanctions/penalties likely to be the big financial impact for the club.

 

[Mercy Seat]

The AFL and insurers will likely foot the litigation and damages costs. The AFL is the overriding employer of the players and would be a party to any litigation. Loss of sponsors, members and AFL sanctions/penalties likely to be the big financial impact for the club.

I suspect it would be both. The club as a whole still has a duty of care.

 

[Billyc]

I suspect it would be both. The club as a whole still has a duty of care.

They do and would be a party - but insurance will cover the litigation and damages. Could be a substantial deductible / self-insurance layer though

 

[The hands of stone]

According to Caro, Cyril has teamed up with the other accusers and are preparing a class action against the hawthorn football club. Irrespective of the independent AFL review. They won’t be pursuing individuals it will be about us as a club, so yes, things are going to get very costly, even just in terms of preparing a defence.

And Tasmania are just one of our sponsors being urged to drop us immediately, so as things get worse this is surely a possibility as well.

I had a sad feeling that was inevitable

Going to be a rough ride over the next few years

 

[HedgeFund]

They do and would be a party - but insurance will cover the litigation and damages. Could be a substantial deductible / self-insurance layer though

Any civil suit would join both the AFL and the club to the claim made primarily against the individuals involved.

That would mean 5 possible defendants, with the deepest pockets sitting as defendant 4 (Hawthorn - hopefully indemnified by insurer) and defendant 5 (AFL - ditto).

As for the earlier query re: strength of evidence and whether it would stand up in court. My practice is mainly criminal now, and I dare say this will never enter that sphere.

However any workplace / IR litigation would probably require the de-identified witnesses / claimants to swear Affidavits consistent with these statements, and be willing to be cross-examined on the contents of those statements at the appropriate time (if we ever get there).

My best guess at this stage is the whole thing will end up being mediated privately in a few months’ time. Unless there turn out to be more claimants. The potential for Cyril to commence a class action may string this out further.

There’s a lot to play out here. It won’t be quick, and even if it finishes confidentially, I agree with a few others here that some heads may well roll.

 

[SammyC]

This will get settled quietly at significant cost. There is no way the club (or the afl) wants this to play out in court.

Even if the facts in statements made by players are contentious, the cross examination would inevitably veer into accusations of lying and club being portrayed as blaming victims for the actions taken by the Russian mafia.