News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Hawthorn's hands are pretty much tied behind their back, whilst they lead with the chin. If they defend themselves (and coaches), they're also damning themselves to the public. So for HFC, it's either M.A.D or $$$. The players would be confident the club will handover $$$ to avoid sullying the reputation of the players (and thus the club itself) further.

My concern is once the players (lawyers) have their way, and the club hands over $$$ to protect the real story (also, somewhat ironically, the players) - the coaches will come after the club too.

 

[seysearles]

No.

So this is it. At no point can a minority’s gripe be considered baseless? That’s where we are at. All standing around the room collectively knowing the absurdity of it all but too petrified to say anything.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

So this is it. At no point can a minority’s gripe be considered baseless? That’s where we are at. All standing around the room collectively knowing the absurdity of it all but too petrified to say anything.

So you’re actively promoting groupthink?

 

[Yardie]

This is my wondering also. Burt confirming one of the stories shows that lines were clearly crossed. Was there a well-meaning but patronising element of ‘well the Indigenous boys can’t look after themselves so we’ll help sort things out for them’ - or would they cross the lines for most young players. Clarko clearly oversteps with players (the carolling debacle, getting Birchall a dog without his consent etc) so potentially it was more wide spread. This is what I’d like to know more about.

I think that they didn't take into account cultural differences when dealing with the Indigenous group.

 

[Yardie]

Hawthorn's hands are pretty much tied behind their back, whilst they lead with the chin. If they defend themselves (and coaches), they're also damning themselves to the public. So for HFC, it's either M.A.D or $$$. The players would be confident the club will handover $$$ to avoid sullying the reputation of the players (and thus the club itself) further.

My concern is once the players (lawyers) have their way, and the club hands over $$$ to protect the real story (also, somewhat ironically, the players) - the coaches will come after the club too.

I don't think the coach/staff would want to come after the club after settling the above. I would presume that you'd threaten to take them to court under the proviso that the club was required to pay out in the first case due to the action of its employees at the time. Would reckon they would just want it to go away.

 

[thehardway]

I think that they didn't take into account cultural differences when dealing with the Indigenous group.

You may be right but in a court of law does this constitute racial discrimination?

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I think that they didn't take into account cultural differences when dealing with the Indigenous group.

This is potentially the scenario - it was the same way they’d treat any young bloke, albeit still a bit over the top, but the cultural differences made it worse. That or there was a well-meaning but patronising attitude towards the players based on their background and a perception they needed coddling. Weird and controlling as Clarko can be I don’t think his actions, even if they were to the full extent of the accusations, were borne of hatred. This isn’t an excuse or forgiving of the actions either - just trying to rationalise what possibly occurred.

 

[kazzooka]

I'm fresh to this conversation and not willing to wade through 300 pages of chat to see if this has been covered. so apologies if it has. I welcome the court case. I think it's important to have a comprehensive understanding of what happened so we can learn and move on. If there are legitimate issues then they should be addressed so the club can improve.

I have really not enjoyed the process so far and i blame the league and club for most of that. The scope of the Egan report was too narrow from the start which made it a list of unchallenged grievances. That report was then taken by the ABC at face value with not a lot of effort to fact check and provide a balance to the story (i'm usually a fan of the ABC so this was disappointing).

I suspect that the thrust of the allegations will be found to be true, that some members of the coaching staff pressured some players to not be parents and to distance themselves from certain members of their family. I also suspect it will be found that the coaches did this to all of their players regardless of their race.

Which raises a philosophical question. Should professional sport be treated the same way as any regular workplace? In a normal workplace, pressure from your boss on these issues would be entirely inappropriate. But professional sport is different, it's winner take all. People who win at professional sport make huge sacrifices to get there.

I suspect the hawthorn coaching stuff were ruthlessly focused on winning, and wanted players who had the same attitude. Is that a good way to coach? well we have evidence both ways. For the players in question it's been a monumental failure, most of them had short careers at the club, Cyril's career was shorter than it should have been. For the team as a whole though, we won four premierships with three of them being in a row

For a while our slogan was "pay the price". That wasn't just a slogan, it was an expectation of the players. Was this a good way to run a club? That's a philosophical question and sadly the racism angle is distracting away from that core issue

My take on it is that the kind of advise offered was absolutely in line with advice given to other players. Clarkson crossed a line with the players into their personal lives. He did what he thought was best for the players and their careers but he's not their dad and the reason these boundaries exist is that what may be best for the player is not best for the club. Though Clarkson did show with Brad Hill how he put the players interests ahead of the club and agreed to trade him while contracted.

Even things like taking Harry Morrison for driving lessons is crossing a line in my opinion.

 

[brad sue well]

In your opinion. What is the correct manner for a coach to deal with an athlete who is not meeting performance expectations and the coach believes this failure is due to the athlete's personal life and choices?

This is structural and simply not for the coach and what they believe, not opinion. Longmire is a great speaker on this, for some time. Amongst the Dept, Footy Manager is the job who may know more but should not be disclosed to coaches unless player wants it known.

ILO/PDM is the centre point of - player, family, player manager, psychologist, psychiatrist, appropriately trained doctor(not necessarily sport doc), union regional manager et al. ILO/PDM, guided by player uses each of these roles as needed.

 

[brad sue well]

This is potentially the scenario - it was the same way they’d treat any young bloke, albeit still a bit over the top, but the cultural differences made it worse. That or there was a well-meaning but patronising attitude towards the players based on their background and a perception they needed coddling. Weird and controlling as Clarko can be I don’t think his actions, even if they were to the full extent of the accusations, were borne of hatred. This isn’t an excuse or forgiving of the actions either - just trying to rationalise what possibly occurred.

Families have said, winning was the driver, to the families detriment and in doing so the rogue aspect is your debate. Rogue bypassed and created problems.

 

[brad sue well]

So this is it. At no point can a minority’s gripe be considered baseless? That’s where we are at. All standing around the room collectively knowing the absurdity of it all but too petrified to say anything.

Post in thread 'Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully'



I note the post was Friday night was edited at 5:30pm today.



I will reply, trying not to be grumpy like the other day, I hope it comes across.



Employing an ILO in your Football Department shows a sound awareness of its importance. Coaches knew their skills were lacking but just as much, no Indigeneity and probable low amount of trust that needed earning. Through this they would have known their limits based around what led them to widening the Department’s skill set. Those same limits would have been in place, broadly, via the PDM.



Given this and allegations in the ABC, HS, these aren’t a few small things. I think it is fair to say if someone is culturally insensitive there is an obligation to not just correct that but gain deeper understanding you are preventing a repeat in other situations. For the HRC to fail and no guilt accepted, I can’t see how cultural insensitivity is in play.



I see a competition choosing slow progress by not finding anything through a flawed investigation, not held to ransom. This is a human rights matter, it is above the competition.



Culturally insensitive… I wonder the exact origin even though culturally sensitive is established.



To me the word but is doing heavy lifting in the post, maybe in person with you I would have a different take. Similarly, “balance” and “sanity” implies the families are the opposite of people persecuted for generations. I’d be annoyed with my plight. It is not a perception but an experience over many families, examples and years. There is an inference that if you are a minority or tiny minority that even if you are hurt, everyone else isn’t interested.



That it is implied these matters are designed as a weapon implies no trust. Eddie Betts begged non-Indigenous people with words like “believe us”.

 

[brad sue well]

I think that they didn't take into account cultural differences when dealing with the Indigenous group.

What are your thoughts on bypassing the ILO though? Genuine question.

 

[brad sue well]

My take on it is that the kind of advise offered was absolutely in line with advice given to other players. Clarkson crossed a line with the players into their personal lives. He did what he thought was best for the players and their careers but he's not their dad and the reason these boundaries exist is that what may be best for the player is not best for the club. Though Clarkson did show with Brad Hill how he put the players interests ahead of the club and agreed to trade him while contracted.

Even things like taking Harry Morrison for driving lessons is crossing a line in my opinion.

Without thinking about it for long, colleague giving a lift to get hours up, not a lesson as such… maybe okay, maybe not. Whose car, insurance. Could be good, could be bad. Boss and employee.

 

[brad sue well]

Josh Rachelle got in trouble a month ago speaking about being unhappy how he was being played, the club wasn’t happy. In terms of stepping out of line, surely that is ever so minor. The media landscape is full of cliche/brand management (Tom Greene).

Sacrificing self for team is the mantra in the four walls. Challenges to this don’t last.

It is entirely feasible people say what they need to, to get by and are different around those they trust. Growing up, Indigenous people are just about taught to be cautious.

Separately, there are pretty serious allegations here. How on earth can anyone think that imposing yourself on another person is conducive to a happy person in a workplace producing their very best in a high performance environment? Hodge loved it, maybe even he could have been better with a different approach or penny dropped sooner. Just because Luke’s dad told Clarkson to be hard on him, may not have been the best or right method. Father vs boss, family vs workplace.

 

[Yardie]

What are your thoughts on bypassing the ILO though? Genuine question.

I think they made a mistake and truly had no understanding of what is systemic/structural racism, like a lot of people.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[BIGHAWK23]

How would we contribute to loss of earnings and potential earnings?

Genuinely confused

 

[HedgeFund]

How would we contribute to loss of earnings and potential earnings?

Genuinely confused

If they can establish there was racially discriminatory conduct / behaviour at the club which caused them psychological distress and as a result they retired early, then there’s potential causation between the behaviour and the “forced”’early retirement.

For example Cyril retired at 28 perhaps because he felt he couldn’t continue playing AFL footy based on way he / his wife had been treated.

 

[Billyc]

If they can establish there was racially discriminatory conduct / behaviour at the club which caused them psychological distress and as a result they retired early, then there’s potential causation between the behaviour and the “forced”’early retirement.

For example Cyril retired at 28 perhaps because he felt he couldn’t continue playing AFL footy based on way he / his wife had been treated.

Cyril would have an arguable loss of earnings case as an established and highly paid star who retired young. The others would struggle to prove they'd have earned much in the counterfactual.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

According to the heraldSun the aboriginal guy who who was asked by a Hawk if his Mrs’s was a Boong too is not even apart of this application. The heraldSun names both players in this conversation, BF ask that we do not.

One player is now at the Saints and the other played with lions and now works there. No not our captain.

Amazing this can issue can be a part of the complaint without the leading player involved.

 

[TylerDurden]

Clarko painted as the villain.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

Clarko painted as the villain.

At least the conversation in question was in the HFC offices.

Sounded far worse being at the home of the player and his partner.

Will be interesting to read the HFC and coaches prospective on this matter.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Clarko painted as the villain.

If those accusations are true then he is a villain. Not suggesting they are true however.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

At least the conversation in question was in the HFC offices.

Sounded far worse being at the home of the player and his partner.

Will be interesting to read the HFC and coaches prospective on this matter.

Genuinely curious - how would telling someone to break up with their partner and encourage their partner to terminate a pregnancy be made any better because of the venue?

 

[hardway]

How would we contribute to loss of earnings and potential earnings?

Genuinely confused

Could’ve easily played at another club if he felt he couldn’t continue his career at Hawthorn. This is a money grab .