News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[smish]

Is the claim that was filed available to the public in full?

I'm noting in these media reports of what is in the complaints that there is a lot of "words to the effect" preceding quotes.

It strips all nuance and context from these conversations and is essentially just a summary of how what actually was said was interpreted.

The full statement uses that phrase several times

 

[Buzz Hawk]

Why?
Don’t you get it?
Fagan was a leader at the club and present in a meeting where there’s some disgraceful conduct towards indigenous players and he’s nodding his head in agreement. He’s condoning the conduct of others.

If he had any balls he’s butt in and say “that’s enough fellas? We’ve crossed a line here”.

In other words, he’s part of the culture at the club that’s allegedly caused these problems.

That only works if he did nod, something which he denies.

 

[Mississippi]

It is in there - para 96.

The pleading makes for very uncomfortable reading, particularly in relation to Peterson. Serious allegations against Clarkson, Burt and Matthews. The allegations against Fagan are limited to him being present during what is described as an awful discussion in which Peterson is alleged to have been encouraged to leave his partner and have the pregnancy terminated.

The club should have settled this.

Yes, and the club was earnestly trying to settle it but for the obstinacy of Clarkson, Fagan and others.

Blockheads on this site may say Gowers has been too soft or appeasing but he’s been between a rock and a hard place.
There needed to be a genuine apology from Clarkson and Fagan and others - even an acknowledgment of their cultural insensitivity - but now it’s gone to litigation and will end in tears.

Hopefully it may still settle in the meantime when there’s a proper apology and associated settlement but, if not, the court will not look kindly on these events.

Put simply, it should never had got this far.

 

[Bill Keenon]

Alastair Clarkson spoke about ... The Adam Goodes issue…

30 July 2015

Clarkson in brief: July 30

Alastair Clarkson spoke to the media about a number of important topics today.

www.hawthornfc.com.au

“It’s become really unsavoury, that whole situation.

“I don’t think anyone’s really comfortable… the whole footy community is uncomfortable with it.

“We’ve spent some time with all our players really, but particularly the five Aboriginal players that we’ve got in our club, we’ve spoken to them in depth over the last two days about this issue.

“The overwhelming response from those five boys in particular is, they don’t want this to be about black v white.”

 

[kazzooka]

If they can establish there was racially discriminatory conduct / behaviour at the club which caused them psychological distress and as a result they retired early, then there’s potential causation between the behaviour and the “forced”’early retirement.

For example Cyril retired at 28 perhaps because he felt he couldn’t continue playing AFL footy based on way he / his wife had been treated.

Probably would've needed to request a trade if that was the case. Also I'm sure every single club tried calling him after the announcement. And Hawthorn actively tried to prevent him from retiring.

 

[Mississippi]

That only works if he did nod, something which he denies.

You truly are an idiot.
Have you forgotten already that you said - “if he nodded - WTF” ??

Jeez, I wish the dumb bigoted nonsense on this side would stop.

 

[Chris Pelchen]

If they can establish there was racially discriminatory conduct / behaviour at the club which caused them psychological distress and as a result they retired early, then there’s potential causation between the behaviour and the “forced”’early retirement.

For example Cyril retired at 28 perhaps because he felt he couldn’t continue playing AFL footy based on way he / his wife had been treated.

 

[kazzooka]

Genuinely curious - how would telling someone to break up with their partner and encourage their partner to terminate a pregnancy be made any better because of the venue?

It's worse at the club with 3 top level staff. It makes it an official club endorsed instruction.

Had it been a single staff member in a private setting it could be argued to be personal advice from 1 person to another and not clear message from your boss telling you to do something and showing that the head coach (Clarkson) and his boss (Fagan) are all aware and have made this decision together for you.

 

[kazzooka]

Wow, talk about ugly. I assume Brad Hill will get a subpoena to testify on the conversations he was alleged to have been part of. And Silk to either confirm or deny the allegations were raised with him, the player rep, I believe. Is that last bit right? He was the player rep at the time? And Birchall to testify to the conversations as well. And HR records documenting all this.

Wowzers.

No sure anything could come of that. Birchall comment to Hill Birchall apologises, hill accepted and remains friends with Birchall, hill tells Cyril and later Sam Rioli about it.

No official complaint made by Hill or Rioli, player leaders, coaches and board not involved.

The Peterson and Miller Lewis allegations are the worst.

 

[kazzooka]

From memory early on in the accusation piece didn't Burgoyne confirm that he had heard about the alleged Birchall incident and it was handled within the leadership group? Or perhaps it was Hodge.

It might explain why Hill both departed the club and didn't return when he came back to Melbourne, or have at least somewhat contributed to both.

Burgoyne and Hodge weren't on the camp and didn't know about it. Jordan Lewis stated that he was informed and an apology was made and accepted and that hill and Birchall had no conflict and it was resolved.

 

[kazzooka]

I am surprised that Kennett’s torn jeans still hasn’t made it into a claim given the focus is has received here and elsewhere on the Internets.

It's in there

 

[Buzz Hawk]

You truly are an idiot.
Have you forgotten already that you said - “if he nodded - WTF” ??

Jeez, I wish the dumb bigoted nonsense on this side would stop.

Spare me with your sanctimony pal.
That's right, "if he nodded". If you can't see how ambiguous a reference to Fagan "nodding" could be, then I can't help you.
Perhaps it was a head tilt misinterpreted, perhaps he did nod off, perhaps it didn't happen at all (as Fagan insists).
You obviously don't do nuance or subtlety very well.

 

[Gaborone]

I'm glad this has gone to court where the full facts can be established and for there to be clarity about what constitutes racism because in my experience it can be a two edged sword.

 

[Bugs1977]

Is the claim that was filed available to the public in full?

I'm noting in these media reports of what is in the complaints that there is a lot of "words to the effect" preceding quotes.

It strips all nuance and context from these conversations and is essentially just a summary of how what actually was said was interpreted.

Thought the same

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Burgoyne and Hodge weren't on the camp and didn't know about it. Jordan Lewis stated that he was informed and an apology was made and accepted and that hill and Birchall had no conflict and it was resolved.

Yeah assumed the wrong players - knew it was a higher up member of the group.

 

[kazzooka]

Absolutely. So he nodded? WTF.
Maybe he was nodding off..

I know this is a delicate, serious and quite sad issue but as for Clarko whipping out his guitar and serenading the boys, I just can't get the thought of him crooning Kimberly Moon to the boys out of my head..

Fagan was Clarkson and Burt's boss. So him being there is him being involved and a decision maker in a meeting with an agenda to split up a player from his partner, advise an abortion and threaten his career.

Fagan needed to speak up during the meeting or prevent it from occuring when he heard about it. He also had an obligation to be aware of other incidents and make sure policies were in place and his direct reports followed them.

Just as Stuart Fox, Andrew Newbold, Kennett and the board needed to show more governance.

 

[Mississippi]

Spare me with your sanctimony pal.
That's right, "if he nodded". If you can't see how ambiguous a reference to Fagan "nodding" could be, then I can't help you.
Perhaps it was a head tilt misinterpreted, perhaps he did nod off, perhaps it didn't happen at all (as Fagan insists).
You obviously don't do nuance or subtlety very well.

Yeah right.
So the WFT have now morphed into an ambiguity.

Do yourself a favour and read the statement of claim before making stupid assertions.
It’s 88 pages so may be a challenge.

But at least save the WTFs until after you’re a bit more informed.

 

[Stranglers]

How much did the club have set aside for damages again?

Could be a drop in the bucket once this is all said and done.

 

[rjslcM]

Reading over the actions laid out in the statement of claim, it’s easy to see how the players involved would have felt controlled, stereotyped and discriminated against. This is certainly more apparent when all of the evidence is stacked together.

I am reflecting on how the ‘having kids’ discussions could have been done better or avoided all together. I logically agree that having kids in the first couple of years while you’re still establishing yourself in your career likely will result in a reduced capacity to perform to the best of your abilities. Further, in a working environment where most staff are in their 20s, having kids can isolate you from your colleagues in a different stage of their life. Football is also a very particular industry where roughly 7.5% of the ‘staff’ (players) have their contracts terminated each year. So, if you are not performing at the best of your abilities, don’t have the runs on the board, and aren’t gelling with your colleagues; then it increases the likelihood of being the 1 in 13 who are fired at the end of the year.

It’s then a delicate balance for a coach who can be a player’s boss, friend and even a fatherly-figure all at once to try and support their staff so that they aren’t fired at the end of the year. It’s difficult to watch people you care about do things that you believe are not good for them.

Close family or friends might suggest to their mates to break up with their partners. Even fewer close family or friends might suggest that a pregnancy is a bad idea. But management shouldn’t. Management should simply support their staff with their life decisions and let the staff member’s performance do the talking. If the staff member is subsequently unable to perform his duties, then he will be given marching orders in due course. It’s not the end of the world, many people have chosen families over careers before and lived happily with their decision. They should be able to make this choice.

So, for me, if there’s something to be learned from at least the discussions around ‘having kids’, it’s that the coaches need to put their professionalism first. If a player doesn’t succeed in the AFL due to their private life, that’s on them. They can only do what they can within the organisation. Maybe run some info sessions of what correlates with successful careers where everyone is present, but let them decide individually on their private life.

 

[Billyc]

How much did the club have set aside for damages again?

Could be a drop in the bucket once this is all said and done.

Hawthorn's insurers would likely wear the bulk of any damages claim, at least for the claims in negligence and discrimination. Perhaps not the claims for exemplary/aggravated damages. That's another potential reason why it hasn't resolved - insurers might not have been willing to 'overpay' to get rid of it. It's their money, but not their reputation, on the line. The club will probably have set aside enough to pay its insurance deductible, and presumably an additional sum for meeting any uninsured liability (if any) or if it needs to contribute some to a settlement if the insurers won't go higher.

 

[StillAtLarge]

The allegations at the heart of the Hawks’ racism case

When Hawthorn First Nations players threatened a boycott, Alastair Clarkson reached for his guitar, court claim alleges.

www.theage.com.au

 

[rjslcM]

Also, just to make mention of it because it hasn’t been mentioned here, the applicants have gotten themselves some of the very best lawyers for this type of case in Peter Seidel and Leon Zwier.

 

[Hawker55]

Im sure that will be argued but the players will argue they were psychologically injured such that they could not continue playing.

Exactly. If you remove this from the football environment, it's like saying someone psychologically affected at work shouldn't get any compensation because they could just change jobs anytime.

 

[HedgeFund]

Is the claim that was filed available to the public in full?

I'm noting in these media reports of what is in the complaints that there is a lot of "words to the effect" preceding quotes.

It strips all nuance and context from these conversations and is essentially just a summary of how what actually was said was interpreted.

The use of “words to the effect” is very common, due to the fact the conversations may have occurred many years earlier and human memory is not infallible.

The Defence (when filed) may well
challenge that perception.

 

[HedgeFund]

Probably would've needed to request a trade if that was the case. Also I'm sure every single club tried calling him after the announcement. And Hawthorn actively tried to prevent him from retiring.

Not necessarily.

It remains to be seen, but were Cyril to give sworn evidence, that was accepted by the court, that:

1. he was so disillusioned with his situation at the club that

2. he didn’t feel he could play professional football again (which could be given credit through his rejection of overtures from other clubs)

then the loss of potential earnings claim has a basis.