Moved Thread Heritier Lumumba Documentary - Fair Game (SBS)

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Thats Wright said:
You're mistaking anyone that continually makes stupid comments with minorities.

If Harry was white he'd cop a lot more for being an absolute tool.

It seems Harry is one of those that hasn't much left to offer and plays his options.
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No, he isn't, he is separating minorities and you. You're argument is fundamentally flawed because you've got your mind made up on Lumumba being a tool for no good reason other than you don't like him or agree with him.
 

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Runnin Blue said:
It is not hard to believe if you look hard enough.

Eddie McGuire is a typical, ignorant, uncultured dumb bloke, who has been very successful through hard work and right place, right time.

Just watch any episode of Millionaire Hot Seat and shake your head as he struggles to pronounce the most rudimentary of non-english words. Words so common that they have been adopted by the English language, but he fails, because they have more than two syllables or too many vowels. He always speaks these words in an insulting, embarrassing and exaggerated accent, so as to disguise the fact that he is a dumb shit. In a fashion that is usually reserved for the schoolyard. Shocking for a guy so well-moneyed and well-travelled. Just shows his willful ignorance.

The fact that dumb shit Eddie occasionally slips up with his words in his role as a public figure should come as no surprise. He is not intelligent enough to contain it 24/7.

I'm just glad he doesn't run my club. He is dogged and astute in his way. He certainly saved Collingwood at a low point and brought them back up. But the idiot in him is still there and leads him to make decisions like appointing his buddy as coach and sticking by that decision.
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Missile Lock
 
demondavey said:
Maybe it's just the way he speaks?
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Yes, that's what my whole post was about.

Having watched a few more videos of him speaking (opposed to just assuming he's a flog because everyone says so) I'm getting a better sense of what he's about and perhaps why he's the type of person that he is.

I think when he speaks from the heart (such as about meeting his biological father) he sounds perfectly genuine. It's not pretentious, he doesn't mention Muhammad Ali or MLK or call himself a prince; it's just honest and forthright.

I don't think he always speaks from the heart though, sometimes it's just pure self-interest.
 
RobbieK said:
Just taking one example, many people look at what he said in the speech at the B&F was weird, pretentious, pseudo-intellectual, attention seeking, etc.

Look at what he actually said. He highlights the fact that a club isn't just about what happens on the field, it is about what happens off it too. He says that Collingwood has a history of community values, of giving hope to the marginalised.
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I'll quote Harry verbatim:

"The thing that I hold greatest to my heart are my values, which are also congruent with the values of the Collingwood Football Club."

He singled out Buckley for praise and didn't seem to think the club had a problem worth mentioning at the time.

Have to say I wondered at the following:

"Back during the Great Depression, the Collingwood Football Club opened up its doors to the poorest of people. It gave them hope. It gave them shelter. It gave them food."

Is this actually true, or just Harry waffling? Happy to be enlightened.
 
demondavey said:
Bullshit. Goodes was called an Ape and he was booed because he enacted a war dance. You think Harry is a flog because you don't understand what he is saying.
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When you have a majority population, and you have minority populations, those minorities will always feel the weight at some point of being outnumbered.

You have to forgive minorities for feeling insecure and intimidated when a mass majority population levels vitriol and racially motivated comments their way.

Majak Daw
Adam Goodes
Lumumba
Winmar
 
demondavey said:
No, he isn't, he is separating minorities and you. You're argument is fundamentally flawed because you've got your mind made up on Lumumba being a tool for no good reason other than you don't like him or agree with him.
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Yea. This thread would be awkward if everyone posted about what a flog Harry is and was. Post after post of agreement.

The nature of a forum suggests you'll find one or two to disagree on just about anything.

But yea he probably deserves another chance. Oh wait he's still being an arse cause he can. But it's Collingwood, so who cares right.
 
Ron The Bear said:
I'll quote Harry verbatim:

"The thing that I hold greatest to my heart are my values, which are also congruent with the values of the Collingwood Football Club."

He singled out Buckley for praise and didn't seem to think the club had a problem worth mentioning at the time.

Have to say I wondered at the following:

"Back during the Great Depression, the Collingwood Football Club opened up its doors to the poorest of people. It gave them hope. It gave them shelter. It gave them food."

Is this actually true, or just Harry waffling? Happy to be enlightened.
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Not sure. Maybe footy clubs were pillars of community strength back then?
 
Thats Wright said:
You're mistaking anyone that makes stupid comments with minorities.

If Harry was white he'd cop a lot more for being an absolute tool.

It seems Harry is one of those that hasn't much left to offer and plays his options.
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I don't think I'm mistaken about that. I don't think I ever said anything like that.

"If Harry was white..." is a pretty irrelevant hypothetical that I don't really care about. I'd rather deal with reality, and the fact is that he isn't white. That fact seems to have shaped his experience of AFL football in a negative way because he came up against bigotry, tried to to do something about it and was frustrated when he couldn't.

Eradicating racism, sexism and homophobia from the game is something I consider to be important, because having played the game as a minority I know there were many times where I was made to feel uncomfortable by the bigotry towards people like me or people I care about, often done in a casual, jokey way. It didn't have to be directed at me for me to feel uncomfortable. I think a lot of the people engaged in it weren't aware there was anything wrong with what they were saying, but I never felt comfortable voicing my opinions because it felt like to do so would have led to being ostracised by the group. I loved playing the game, but I did not love the club environment that I had to endure to play it. I don't think it has to be like that, I would love to see it change. So yeah, when a minority voices their concerns about how they have been treated and are shouted down by the majority, and I have seen it again and again, I tend to see that as a problem and I'm inclined to believe there is some substance to what they are saying. They know they are going to cop shit for it, they wouldn't put themselves out there if they didn't feel they had to.

I think Heretier could express himself a lot better, I understand why a lot of people don't care for the way he comes across. I think I have made that pretty clear. But that doesn't make me think we should disregard what he has said about his experiences. If Heretier was a straight white man he probably wouldn't have had those experiences, wouldn't have felt that pain, wouldn't have felt compelled to express his frustrations or disappointment, and so we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The issue here is about racism and bigotry within the game. Not about whether you like Heretier Lumumba. When you make it about the latter and ignore the former it makes me think that you don't think there are any problems with racism/homophobia/sexism in the game, or that you want to distract from a discussion of those problems if they do exist. And I wonder why people would want to do that?

Generally I think it is because people do not like being confronted with their prejudices. So, rather than doing that, they play the man and not the ball, they attack the messanger so that the message can be ignored. That isn't the way change is going to get made and I think it highlights the reason why we need change.
 
Thats Wright said:
Yea. This thread would be awkward if everyone posted about what a flog Harry is and was. Post after post of agreement.

The nature of a forum suggests you'll find one or two to disagree on just about anything.

But yea he probably deserves another chance. Oh wait he's still being an arse cause he can. But it's Collingwood, so who cares right.
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I am getting tired...... I am trying to do the maths on Melbourne making the 8 if we lose both games. Just covering the pessimism base. Would've been nice to have won that game against you in Tasmania.
 
demondavey said:
Not sure. Maybe footy clubs were pillars of community strength back then?
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It's possible I guess. A few had wealthy benefactors but most were run on the smell of an oily rag, e.g. a single pair of socks was expected to last years. Think I recall reading that players were expected to supply their own shorts at one club.

Found a quote from Jack Dyer about longtime property steward Charlie Callander:

What power Charlie had in those days. He took charge of all equipment from footballs to medical supplies and they weren't big on medicine in those days. A needle would be used so often it would have to be punched into the skin with a hammer. That taught players to live with their injuries.

Charlie won a reputation for being mean. He relished the reputation. "They won't go broke because of me," he declared.

"If you look after your socks they should last a player a lifetime. There's always a girl who will darn a sock for a bloke."

The needle/hammer bit is probably an embellishment, but you get the picture. I'd be quite surprised if there was money left over to feed the poor.
 
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Ron The Bear said:
It's possible I guess. A few had wealthy benefactors but most were run on the smell of an oily rag, e.g. a single pair of socks were expected to last years. Think I recall reading that players were expected to supply their own shorts at one club.
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I reckon a lot of clubs would've operated that way. Absolutely no commercial aspect really. Would've been very different.
 
RobbieK said:
I don't think I'm mistaken about that. I don't think I ever said anything like that.

"If Harry was white..." is a pretty irrelevant hypothetical that I don't really care about. I'd rather deal with reality, and the fact is that he isn't white. That fact seems to have shaped his experience of AFL football in a negative way because he came up against bigotry, tried to to do something about it and was frustrated when he couldn't.

Eradicating racism, sexism and homophobia from the game is something I consider to be important, because having played the game as a minority I know there were many times where I was made to feel uncomfortable by the bigotry towards people like me or people I care about, often done in a casual, jokey way. It didn't have to be directed at me for me to feel uncomfortable. I think a lot of the people engaged in it weren't aware there was anything wrong with what they were saying, but I never felt comfortable voicing my opinions because it felt like to do so would have led to being ostracised by the group. I loved playing the game, but I did not love the club environment that I had to endure to play it. I don't think it has to be like that, I would love to see it change. So yeah, when a minority voices their concerns about how they have been treated and are shouted down by the majority, and I have seen it again and again, I tend to see that as a problem and I'm inclined to believe there is some substance to what they are saying. They know they are going to cop shit for it, they wouldn't put themselves out there if they didn't feel they had to.

I think Heretier could express himself a lot better, I understand why a lot of people don't care for the way he comes across. I think I have made that pretty clear. But that doesn't make me think we should disregard what he has said about his experiences. If Heretier was a straight white man he probably wouldn't have had those experiences, wouldn't have felt that pain, wouldn't have felt compelled to express his frustrations or disappointment, and so we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The issue here is about racism and bigotry within the game. Not about whether you like Heretier Lumumba. When you make it about the latter and ignore the former it makes me think that you don't think there are any problems with racism/homophobia/sexism in the game, or that you want to distract from a discussion of those problems if they do exist. And I wonder why people would want to do that?

Generally I think it is because people do not like being confronted with their prejudices. So, rather than doing that, they play the man and not the ball, they attack the messanger so that the message can be ignored. That isn't the way change is going to get made and I think it highlights the reason why we need change.
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Fair enough. There's always going to be potential problems being different. Just ask any red head.

For every Harry there's a Shaun Burgoyne.

Perhaps it's Shaun's class and amazing character that leads me to believe he has fitted in swimmingly at hawthorn but I don't think Harry has helped himself avoid becoming a victim here.
 
Runnin Blue said:
It is not hard to believe if you look hard enough.

Eddie McGuire is a typical, ignorant, uncultured dumb bloke, who has been very successful through hard work and right place, right time.

Just watch any episode of Millionaire Hot Seat and shake your head as he struggles to pronounce the most rudimentary of non-english words. Words so common that they have been adopted by the English language, but he fails, because they have more than two syllables or too many vowels. He always speaks these words in an insulting, embarrassing and exaggerated accent, so as to disguise the fact that he is a dumb shit. In a fashion that is usually reserved for the schoolyard. Shocking for a guy so well-moneyed and well-travelled. Just shows his willful ignorance.

The fact that dumb shit Eddie occasionally slips up with his words in his role as a public figure should come as no surprise. He is not intelligent enough to contain it 24/7.

I'm just glad he doesn't run my club. He is dogged and astute in his way. He certainly saved Collingwood at a low point and brought them back up. But the idiot in him is still there and leads him to make decisions like appointing his buddy as coach and sticking by that decision.
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Is that the same "dumb shit Eddie" who has achieved more in his life than you ever will?
 
demondavey said:
When you have a majority population, and you have minority populations, those minorities will always feel the weight at some point of being outnumbered.

You have to forgive minorities for feeling insecure and intimidated when a mass majority population levels vitriol and racially motivated comments their way.

Majak Daw
Adam Goodes
Lumumba
Winmar
Click to expand...
Daicos
 
Ron The Bear said:
I'll quote Harry verbatim:

"The thing that I hold greatest to my heart are my values, which are also congruent with the values of the Collingwood Football Club."

He singled out Buckley for praise and didn't seem to think the club had a problem worth mentioning at the time.

Have to say I wondered at the following:

"Back during the Great Depression, the Collingwood Football Club opened up its doors to the poorest of people. It gave them hope. It gave them shelter. It gave them food."

Is this actually true, or just Harry waffling? Happy to be enlightened.
Click to expand...

Think the community value of clubs back then was in giving the poor a sense of pride, and belonging, more than food and shelter.
 
Ron The Bear said:
I'll quote Harry verbatim:

"The thing that I hold greatest to my heart are my values, which are also congruent with the values of the Collingwood Football Club."

He singled out Buckley for praise and didn't seem to think the club had a problem worth mentioning at the time.

Have to say I wondered at the following:

"Back during the Great Depression, the Collingwood Football Club opened up its doors to the poorest of people. It gave them hope. It gave them shelter. It gave them food."

Is this actually true, or just Harry waffling? Happy to be enlightened.
Click to expand...
Ive heard its true, i would say there was far more local community help years ago, in comparison to today
 
Yeti said:
There is no institutional racism in Australia.

As a white immigrant to this country i was mercilessly bullied in my first 12 months being in the country. Looking back on it i don't think it was racism it was because i was different. It is the same with just about anything. If you are different the natural reaction is to reject. Whether you are a different due to where you were born the colour of your hair or what you choose to wear you are going to be picked on until you assimilate.

After living in various countries this is the way I see almost all communities.

Herrieter is a flog who has a history of histrionic behaviour and in my opinion has a severe personality disorder.

No one shpuld be abused due to their race and if that occurred at Collingwood it is a disgrace. I am not sure that I necessarily believe it though the timing is suspect.
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Yeah, nah.

You have discredited yourself in your first two sentences.

My comment has nothing to do with Lumumba. I am still working through the thread. From what little I have seen, I am not entirely on his side, but you are kidding yourself if you think you can put yourself in the shoes of a "non-white" immigrant in Australia.


Black white said:
Is that the same "dumb shit Eddie" who has achieved more in his life than you ever will?
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Lol. Wow, you can see someone's bank balance, career and success through a couple of paragraphs on the internet.

Nostradamus over here.
 
Thats Wright said:
Fair enough. There's always going to be potential problems being different. Just ask any red head.

For every Harry there's a Shaun Burgoyne.

Perhaps it's Shaun's class and amazing character that leads me to believe he has fitted in swimmingly at hawthorn but I don't think Harry has helped himself avoid becoming a victim here.
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This gets back to my first point, though.

Shaun Burgoyne has never rocked the boat by calling things out in the way that Winwar, Goodes or Lumumba did. I'm not saying he hasn't done good work to promote indigenous rights within the game, not at all, but if you look at how he has done that it has been in a much more understated, polite, non-confrontational way.

Now, you might think that that is the better way to do it. Personally, as someone who is not an indigenous Australian, I don't think it is my place to tell them how to express their frustrations at the racist abuse they receive. How many times did Nicky Winmar cop abuse before he raised his jumper and point to his skin? How many times did Adam Goodes get called an ape before pointing out where in the crowd he heard it said? We have a problem about race. This season we had bananas thrown on to the Adelaide Oval, Edie Betts told to go back to the zoo. It isn't changing fast enough and I don't really think I can judge someone who cops that week in and week out through their lives when they react to it in an emotional way. It certainly doesn't make me want to disregard what they have to say or think that they must be the problem.

When they blend in, when they don't confront us with problems, we are happy for the black men to entertain us. When they don't react to the abuse we send their way about being apes, animals, subhuman, we haven't got a problem. But when they do react, when they lash out or snap back they are hysterical, hypersensitive, making themselves into victims, and we tear them down. They are the problem, not us. It is the pattern I see time and time again and I suspect I'm going to continue seeing it for a while.

Is the Shaun Burgoyne way or the Winmar/Goodes/Lumumba way more likely to bring about the kind of change they would all like to see? I don't know the answer to that and I'm a political philosopher, with an interest in social change, so I think about questions like this a lot. I think there are arguments on either side and both have a role to play. Movements for change always have people doing more quiet work behind the scenes or working in a way that is more engaged with the system that is trying to be changed, as well as people who agitate against the system and are more confrontational in their way of drawing peoples' attention to the issue. You can prefer the Burgoyne approach and like him more as a result, but that doesn't mean that on account of disliking the way he goes about it (and so disliking him) Lumumba is necessarily wrong or ought to be ignored.
 
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Black white said:
do tell us genius how you are not a dumb shit in comparison to Eddie.

Ive read a few of your comments, you certainly ain't the sharpest.
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I can pronounce common words that he can't. That already makes me smarter or at least more educated or at least better read or more observant than Eddie. I'm sure there are many more ways in which I am smarter, but that is the easiest and simplest to prove. I see it every time I watch him speak on television.

Feel free to post some of my "ain't the sharpest" comments from an Aussie rules forum. Good to know you're checking my posts for me.
 
Runnin Blue said:
I can pronounce common words that he can't. That already makes me smarter or at least more educated or at least better read or more observant than Eddie. I'm sure there are many more ways in which I am smarter, but that is the easiest and simplest to prove. I see it every time I watch him speak on television.

Feel free to post some of my "ain't the sharpest" comments from an Aussie rules forum. Good to know you're checking my posts for me.
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Can you pronounce moron?
Your head is more in the clouds than Harrys.
Still, as you are SO observant I'm sure you know that already.
 

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