Holden has been put out of its misery

[Carringbush2010]

Which produced a whopping 122kw, less power and torque than a red motor 253...!

Figures never reflect the seat of the pants feeling though.
I had a Eunos 800M that was 2.5ltr V6 supercharged. It was a heavy car but when you put the boot in and used all of that 149kw, it felt fast. Never had to back off on sweeping bends because of the 4 wheel steering.
But compared to a lot of today’s offerings, it was simply underpowered.

The HQ feels quick because it's old and loud and not terrible wind proof or smooth, when you put the foot down and roars it feels like you're going somewhere. The inertia is far more noticeable.

But you really aren't. The stock VY V6 Commodore would smoke it no worries.

I think the Ecotec is rated around 150kw which would roughly be the same or a little more than the 253, which was about 130kw stock, done some modifications though which hopefully added a bit bringing it closer to 150.

Strange enough I feel more in control driving the HQ at 100mph+ than the VY. I don't know why this is.

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If we're quoting power figures a standard 202 red produces 100kw, ok that's not much now but when Holden put those standard 202's in the Torana GTR's at the time they were reasonably quick, at the time, partly due to the approx 1 tonne of dry weight.

Then when they upped to the Bathurst XU1 to that ridiculous 165kw in that sort of weight - at the time, well then people started to err, more so the government.

My current LJ is a rebuilt 202, mild (we're talkin 215 degree cam so yeah mild) and I've dropped the gearing to a 2.78. Cruises a blip over 2k rpm on a true 100 kph brilliant little cruiser.

Then the phase 4 Falcon and the proposed GTR XU2 with, if I am correct, something similar to an L34 spec 308 job in one of these. Well now we're talking a reasonably fast car by today's standards even. Without the safety features of course!

That's when the Fed government stepped in and said 'shows over folks, you're not selling these supercars'

 

[deanc]

If we're quoting power figures a standard 202 red produces 100kw, ok that's not much now but when Holden put those standard 202's in the Torana GTR's at the time they were reasonably quick, at the time, partly due to the approx 1 tonne of dry weight.

Then when they upped to the Bathurst XU1 to that ridiculous 165kw in that sort of weight - at the time, well then people started to err, more so the government.

My current LJ is a rebuilt 202, mild (we're talkin 215 degree cam so yeah mild) and I've dropped the gearing to a 2.78. Cruises a blip over 2k rpm on a true 100 kph brilliant little cruiser.

Then the phase 4 Falcon and the proposed GTR XU2 with, if I am correct, something similar to an L34 spec 308 job in one of these. Well now we're talking a reasonably fast car by today's standards even. Without the safety features of course!

That's when the Fed government stepped in and said 'shows over folks, you're not selling these supercars'

Some of these comments bring back some memories as in a former life I was car nut, with Torana's my passion.
Over the journey I've owned an LC GTR and a genuine L34. How I acquired these cars and the related experiences I could write a book about - but I won't get off topic.

Yep, the 'supercar' scare hysteria by the media in 1972, who dubbed the proposed Phase-4 Falcon and XU1-V8 as '160mph bullets on wheels', was enough for the politicians to step-in and prevent these models from ever being manufactured - and in hindsight, while it would of been great for Bathurst etc., it arguably saved lives of the common man on the street.

A comment about the historical reference to 'XU2'.
This was a lazy term Harry Firth used rather than 'XU1 series 2.' which ironically is what he had proposed GMH name the LJ Torana V8 version of the XU1 at the time.

Perhaps they got the idea from Firth, but XU2 was actually being considered by GMH as the performance model descriptor for the proceeding LH Torana L34 - mainly as 'L34' was/is an engine code and wasn't intended to be used as a model version for the car - eg. SL, SLR, XU2
I've actually seen an old promotion photo somewhere of a LH L34 Torana with a 'XU2' label on the front guard.

Bathurst, Easter 1972 - Colin Bond at Hell corner in a HDT XU1-V8 Torana.

 

[edgie]

Wasn't there also a special Monaro in the plans prior to scare?

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[deanc]

Wasn't there also a special Monaro in the plans prior to scare?

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That would be the best kept secret in the industry, but very unlikely as GMH were at the time more focused (and successful) with promoting the HQ/HJ model range and similar future models to the family market.

A few privateers including Bob Jane invested enormously developing and racing the HQ GTS chev 350 Monaro's for a few years, but they simply couldn't compete with the big boys - so when GMH discontinued the chev engines in the preceding HJ model, that was curtains for the racing Monaro's...

Related, many moons ago a bloke down the road had one of those late model LE Monaro's, with the horrible honeycomb wheels.
I took it for spin one afternoon and it was like driving a boat, but he was keen for my assessment so I politely said; 'yep, it drives a little different than my L34...' - when perhaps I should of told him, 'mate, the horrible under-steer is borderline dangerous...!!!'

 

[Carringbush2010]

Some of these comments bring back some memories as in a former life I was car nut, with Torana's my passion.
Over the journey I've owned an LC GTR and a genuine L34. How I acquired these cars and the related experiences I could write a book about - but I won't get off topic.

Yep, the 'supercar' scare hysteria by the media in 1972, who dubbed the proposed Phase-4 Falcon and XU1-V8 as '160mph bullets on wheels', was enough for the politicians to step-in and prevent these models from ever being manufactured - and in hindsight, while it would of been great for Bathurst etc., it arguably saved lives of the common man on the street.

A comment about the historical reference to 'XU2'.
This was a lazy term Harry Firth used rather 'XU1 series 2.' which ironically is what he had proposed GMH name the LJ Torana V8 version of the XU1 at the time.

Perhaps they got the idea from Firth, but XU2 was actually being considered by GMH as the performance model descriptor for the proceeding LH Torana L34 - mainly as 'L34' was/is an engine code and wasn't intended to be used as a model version for the car - eg. SL, SLR, XU2
I've actually seen an old promotion photo somewhere of a LH L34 Torana with a 'XU2' label on the front guard.

Bathurst, Easter 1972 - Colin Bond at Hell corner in a HDT XU1-V8 Torana.
View attachment 866417

Great post, I imagine if those two cars reached production then yeah shouldn't have been available to the public. Even at the time the phase 3, e49? And XU1 were considered above the level of the daily driver.

However those two would still not be considered in the realms of the European thoroughbreds of the time. Whichever way you dissect it we're talking family sedans morphed into showroom touring cars.

 

[edgie]

That would be the best kept secret in the industry, but very unlikely as GMH were at the time more focused (and successful) with promoting the HQ/HJ model range and similar future models to the family market.

A few privateers including Bob Jane invested enormously developing and racing the HQ GTS chev 350 Monaro's for a few years, but they simply couldn't compete with the big boys - so when GMH discontinued the chev engines in the preceding HJ model, that was curtains for the racing Monaro's...

Wasn't it this?

I'm sure they could've, look what they managed to do with the 253 in the Commodore Cup.

Why did the Monaro's not compete? The competed fine in the 60s?

 

[deanc]

Wasn't it this?

I'm sure they could've, look what they managed to do with the 253 in the Commodore Cup.

Why did the Monaro's not compete? The competed fine in the 60s?

A great looking car and I'm not going to debate what could of been. But, further to my previous post please note that between 1971 and 1974 the HQ Kingswood was sold to nearly half a million Australians, back when the total population was barely 13 million...

Now, I'm sure you've heard the old saying; Win the race on Sunday - they'll buy from the showroom Monday, well obviously GMH didn't need the HQ to win anything on a racetrack to sell cars...

Accordingly, what incentive then did GMH have to invest in developing a racing version of the HQ and/or later similar models specifically when; A. sadly by design they were the under-steer kings of the road (ala most of the same era model Falcons) and B. the Torana's were not....?

 

[Galaxie77]

Apparently Harry Firth wrote a tech paper on the HG Monaro to make the HG bathurst special.
It supposedly would have had -
360 hp engine from the Camaro Z28
M21 Close ratio mancie 4 speed manual transmission.
Revised exhaust/manifold/pipe to first joint.
Heavy duty aluminium radiator assembly.
Magnesium alloy wheels featuring revised offset.
Deletion of rear axle radius rods to cover wide wheels.
Lowered ride height with revised suspension settings.
Revised frontal treatment with unique grille.
Front brake air intakes between grille and headlamps.
Front and rear spoilers.
Fendier edged modified to suit wider wheels/tyres.

Pity they did not make it.... but chose to go the Torana route.
Money and GM being a more conservative company.

The HQ above is Old man emu isnt it? some say it was buit, some say a styling exercise only.

As for the first VK group A commodore being slower then the road cars.... this was before the first homologation.... cars were basically stock.
Still Brock put in a good fight in 85 chashing down the Jaguar for the lead.... with no windscreens.... until the timing chain snapped.

Group A also died its said because the manufacturers got sick of spending mega bucks on those low build homologation specials, using up their engineering departments... then clogging up their showrooms during a recession.

 

[edgie]

This would have been something too

 

[Kwality]

Some of these comments bring back some memories as in a former life I was car nut, with Torana's my passion.
Over the journey I've owned an LC GTR and a genuine L34. How I acquired these cars and the related experiences I could write a book about - but I won't get off topic.

Yep, the 'supercar' scare hysteria by the media in 1972, who dubbed the proposed Phase-4 Falcon and XU1-V8 as '160mph bullets on wheels', was enough for the politicians to step-in and prevent these models from ever being manufactured - and in hindsight, while it would of been great for Bathurst etc., it arguably saved lives of the common man on the street.

A comment about the historical reference to 'XU2'.
This was a lazy term Harry Firth used rather than 'XU1 series 2.' which ironically is what he had proposed GMH name the LJ Torana V8 version of the XU1 at the time.

Perhaps they got the idea from Firth, but XU2 was actually being considered by GMH as the performance model descriptor for the proceeding LH Torana L34 - mainly as 'L34' was/is an engine code and wasn't intended to be used as a model version for the car - eg. SL, SLR, XU2
I've actually seen an old promotion photo somewhere of a LH L34 Torana with a 'XU2' label on the front guard.

Bathurst, Easter 1972 - Colin Bond at Hell corner in a HDT XU1-V8 Torana.
View attachment 866417

ran a 253 in the photo above, driven up from Auburn.

 

[Kwality]

Still looking for this Holden:


$130k Monaro missing in drug investigation
Police discovered a rare 1969 Monaro, worth $130,000, that they suspected was bought with the proceeds of drugs. But when they went to seize it, it was gone.

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www.adelaidenow.com.au

 

[deanc]

ran a 253 in the photo above, driven up from Auburn.

Noted, driving a race car to Bathurst was not uncommon back then.

BTW, a side note and another reason relating to the non production of V8 LC/LJ models - was the fact that axle and differential technology had not really changed much from the FJ Holden days (i.e. banjo design). Accordingly, the torque produced by the V8's used to snap axles like twigs (Monaro's suffered the same trait) and when GMH looked at after market options (used by Firth and others on their racing Xu1's) the costs were simply too great for even limited production.
This issue was later addressed during the A9X's production era where GMH invested in the re-design/engineering of a new cast assembly with finer spline axles etc. mainly for the proceeding Commodore model/s...

 

[edgie]

ran a 253 in the photo above, driven up from Auburn.

I don't imaging there was many if any other 253 used for racing

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[Lebbo73]

I was having a conversation with a couple of people last week who were saying that they were going to warehouse a couple of Holdens in the expectation they would be worth squillions in a few decades.
I had to point out that their prospective buyers, those with a love affair with these cars, are now middle/late aged. They won’t be around to buy, and their offspring couldn’t give a shit about Holden/Ford V8’s. They want massive “trucks” that you can’t fit into a normal car parking space!

They’re dropping in value. I know someone that’s trying to get rid of two of the last Commodore’s that come off the production line and they can’t get what they paid for them.

 

[edgie]

They’re dropping in value. I know someone that’s trying to get rid of two of the last Commodore’s that come off the production line and they can’t get what they paid for them.

Well yeah, they aren't gonna eclipse prices when new yet. What models and what are they selling for?

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[Lebbo73]

Well yeah, they aren't gonna eclipse prices when new yet. What models and what are they selling for?

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2010 HSV GTS $55k
2016 HSV GTS $155k

 

[edgie]

2010 HSV GTS $55k
2016 HSV GTS $155k

No wonder they ain't selling you sure he's genuinely trying?

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[Lebbo73]

No wonder they ain't selling you sure he's genuinely trying?

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They think that they’re worth more than they think. Like you said four years ago, the values will drop when the rich bogans and car lovers die off.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Nobody is buying anything at the moment with cost of living up and finance being expensive. Give it a few years for the cycle to turn and the asking prices will go up again.

 

[edgie]

And the used car market is mostly driven by nostalgia from past generations... Nobody is nostalgic yet for 2010+ commodores. Only hope is some younger guys who like the cars to run in to a lot of money.

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[BomberFan355]

Much easier and cheaper to steal a VF than buy one at the moment.

 

[edgie]

Much easier and cheaper to steal a VF than buy one at the moment.

Gotta any tips for the noobs out here?

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