Current HUGE AFP Sting - 200 organised crime arrests

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GreyCrow said:
Am I correct in assuming the case came down to - did the police surveil the warehouse or each individual suspected of visiting the warehouse - and if the latter did they need individual warrants?
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That's my take on it. Did they chase individuals on the app and track their communications, or did they get a copy of everything and mine the results. if chasing the individual, they would of needed warrants for the individuals data. if they collected en masse and sifted the results for anything of interest, does this still require some form of a warrant? sounds like a fishing expedition which should fail a warrant, unless the 5-0 could show evidence of a specific crime/threat being investigated - although wouldn't this lend proof to the idea they were tracking individuals not gathering bulk data? if it was bulk collection, could this provide a precedent for data collection from mobile communication carriers? eg replace the term "anom app" with "telstra mobile tower". both could be expected to bear fruit of criminal endeavours, no individuals would be directly targeted negating specific warrants.
 
Krusty Crab said:
That's my take on it. Did they chase individuals on the app and track their communications, or did they get a copy of everything and mine the results. if chasing the individual, they would of needed warrants for the individuals data. if they collected en masse and sifted the results for anything of interest, does this still require some form of a warrant? sounds like a fishing expedition which should fail a warrant, unless the 5-0 could show evidence of a specific crime/threat being investigated - although wouldn't this lend proof to the idea they were tracking individuals not gathering bulk data? if it was bulk collection, could this provide a precedent for data collection from mobile communication carriers? eg replace the term "anom app" with "telstra mobile tower". both could be expected to bear fruit of criminal endeavours, no individuals would be directly targeted negating specific warrants.
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Its a conundrum

Again with my limited knowledge and especially the convoluted mess it is - I think its because the police were partners in the app? (if thats correct) and so owned the data

As to the 2nd point its already happening with phone towers and backtracking or collecting data on all phones within a tower at a certain time - WAPOL already said they openly used Covid App data to pinpoint the shooter at Kwinana

What about footprints or GPS map data? That I think comes down to the individual phone so an individual warrant
 

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GreyCrow said:
Am I correct in assuming the case came down to - did the police surveil the warehouse or each individual suspected of visiting the warehouse - and if the latter did they need individual warrants?
Click to expand...

I read it more as 'Is accessing the message via the ANOM app surveillance or interception?' The police had a warrant for surveillance.

This analogy is probably not entirely correct, but it sounds more akin to a warrant to set up a listening device inside a warehouse vs setting up a tap on the warehouse phone.
 
'An Australian man who spent almost two years in custody has been quietly extradited to the US to face racketeering charges relating to the underworld’s encrypted app AN0M.
Edwin Harmendra Kumar, 35, of Sydney, was handed over to US officials and flown out of Australia on Tuesday.

The move comes almost two years after he was arrested on June 7, 2021, by Australian Federal Police following a provisional request from US authorities.'


'Mr Kumar is one of 17 men indicted by the FBI after a joint FBI-AFP investigation targeting bikies, mafia figures and international crime gangs allegedly involved in global drug-trafficking and money-laundering.

Seven Australians were named in the FBI’s indictment, all of them apart from Mr Kumar and a man whose name is suppressed living offshore at the time. Australian citizen Osemah El Hassen was arrested in Colombia at the request of the FBI.'
 
Kwality said:
'Mr Kumar is one of 17 men indicted by the FBI after a joint FBI-AFP investigation targeting bikies, mafia figures and international crime gangs allegedly involved in global drug-trafficking and money-laundering.
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Yous forgot to tell us the best bits.

'If convicted, he could face a 20-year jail term.

He is accused of being a distributor of AN0M devices, with the FBI alleging “distributors co-ordinate groups of agents of the AN0M enterprise devices, receive payments for ongoing subscription fees (minus personal profit) back to the parent company, and provide second-level technical support. The distributors can also remotely delete and reset devices.’’'

'Two more men, whose details have been suppressed, are before the courts in Australia and any potential extradition has been paused pending resolution of local criminal charges lodged against them.'

And it gets better from a previous article

'US-accused Edwin Harmendra Kumar kept in Aussie jail since 2021'​

'7:50PM JANUARY 17, 2023'

'“He is an Australian citizen and has never been to the US, apart from a short holiday with his family when he was a young child.'

'Mr Kumar’s father, Bob, told The Australian that authorities “haven’t got anything” on his son, and he was hopeful the matter would progress this year.
“It’s very hard to predict what’s going to happen, but the way things are, we can’t do much,” Bob Kumar said.
“Just because he knows people, some of them (the co-accused) were his schoolmates; they went to the same school together.
“All I can say (is) they didn’t find anything.’’'
 
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BFew said:
Yous forgot to tell us the best bits.

'If convicted, he could face a 20-year jail term.

He is accused of being a distributor of AN0M devices, with the FBI alleging “distributors co-ordinate groups of agents of the AN0M enterprise devices, receive payments for ongoing subscription fees (minus personal profit) back to the parent company, and provide second-level technical support. The distributors can also remotely delete and reset devices.’’'

'Two more men, whose details have been suppressed, are before the courts in Australia and any potential extradition has been paused pending resolution of local criminal charges lodged against them.'

And it gets better from a previous article

'US-accused Edwin Harmendra Kumar kept in Aussie jail since 2021'​

'7:50PM JANUARY 17, 2023'

'“He is an Australian citizen and has never been to the US, apart from a short holiday with his family when he was a young child.'

'Mr Kumar’s father, Bob, told The Australian that authorities “haven’t got anything” on his son, and he was hopeful the matter would progress this year.
“It’s very hard to predict what’s going to happen, but the way things are, we can’t do much,” Bob Kumar said.
“Just because he knows people, some of them (the co-accused) were his schoolmates; they went to the same school together.
“All I can say (is) they didn’t find anything.’’'
Click to expand...

My understanding is that the phone company selling the hardened devices with the app, was a front for an FBI operation. If he's accused of being a distributor, he was working for the FBI.

Add in an 'entrapment' defence and this looks weird.
 
Kurve said:
My understanding is that the phone company selling the hardened devices with the app, was a front for an FBI operation. If he's accused of being a distributor, he was working for the FBI.

Add in an 'entrapment' defence and this looks weird.
Click to expand...
BFew said:
“He is an Australian citizen and has never been to the US, apart from a short holiday with his family when he was a young child.'
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Makes sense if he was working undercover, or in some way assisting authorities at some point, if he was to end up in the US.

Wouldn't be very safe for him in Australia (in or out of jail).
 
Technically working for the feebs ill agree with. could be the feds created the anom device, and through a front touted it for business amongst the crims. Old mate Kumar rolls up saying he has contacts and can distribute the phone, not realising they are the feds. they offer up a deal of x $ per handset shifted, he takes the deal and uses his cred to get people to use the system. no entrapment as they didnt force the phone on him, or make him distribute it, would of been done of his own free will.
 
BFew said:
Yous forgot to tell us the best bits.

'If convicted, he could face a 20-year jail term.

He is accused of being a distributor of AN0M devices, with the FBI alleging “distributors co-ordinate groups of agents of the AN0M enterprise devices, receive payments for ongoing subscription fees (minus personal profit) back to the parent company, and provide second-level technical support. The distributors can also remotely delete and reset devices.’’'

'Two more men, whose details have been suppressed, are before the courts in Australia and any potential extradition has been paused pending resolution of local criminal charges lodged against them.'

And it gets better from a previous article

'US-accused Edwin Harmendra Kumar kept in Aussie jail since 2021'​

'7:50PM JANUARY 17, 2023'

'“He is an Australian citizen and has never been to the US, apart from a short holiday with his family when he was a young child.'

'Mr Kumar’s father, Bob, told The Australian that authorities “haven’t got anything” on his son, and he was hopeful the matter would progress this year.
“It’s very hard to predict what’s going to happen, but the way things are, we can’t do much,” Bob Kumar said.
“Just because he knows people, some of them (the co-accused) were his schoolmates; they went to the same school together.
“All I can say (is) they didn’t find anything.’’'
Click to expand...
Not a fan of quoting articles verbatim. Often its 'a no no', not sure of the legals. One for the mod.
 
Krusty Crab said:
Technically working for the feebs ill agree with. could be the feds created the anom device, and through a front touted it for business amongst the crims. Old mate Kumar rolls up saying he has contacts and can distribute the phone, not realising they are the feds. they offer up a deal of x $ per handset shifted, he takes the deal and uses his cred to get people to use the system. no entrapment as they didnt force the phone on him, or make him distribute it, would of been done of his own free will.
Click to expand...

We've only got half the story imo.
 

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metic said:
Often it's "A No No"
huh what, surely not!?
Kurve can you clarify this ?
re: quoting articles
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Its the fullness of the article that is questioned

Some paid sites with paywalls ask that sections for relevance are used

Its about directing traffic to the paid sites - not deliberately but as a courtesy

tl;dr why go to a paid site if I can get it for free here
 
GreyCrow said:
Copyright

The media source holds the copyright and fair use is quoting specific areas - not the whole article

Thats my understanding
Click to expand...

I did explain my understanding.
Kwality said:
Not a fan of quoting articles verbatim. Often its 'a no no', not sure of the legals. One for the mod.
Click to expand...
 
Krusty Crab said:
Technically working for the feebs ill agree with. could be the feds created the anom device, and through a front touted it for business amongst the crims. Old mate Kumar rolls up saying he has contacts and can distribute the phone, not realising they are the feds. they offer up a deal of x $ per handset shifted, he takes the deal and uses his cred to get people to use the system. no entrapment as they didnt force the phone on him, or make him distribute it, would of been done of his own free will.
Click to expand...

This particular one Kumar, I've read is a cleanskin and the situation he's now in having done two years jail already, now handed over to the US makes me feel real uncomfortable.
 
BFew said:
Wouldn’t be surprised if he was never heard from again and is given a new identity.
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It's a complicated situation. From what I can gather and that's only by picking up snippets here and there, the Australian government in 2018 passed some tricky new laws and went in to some sort of a partnership with the FBI.

The FBI did have someone on the inside who was a convicted drug dealer that introduced the devices, the public knows about this guy and it's not Kumar.
 
Meanwhile, social media platforms are actually introducing end to end encryption. On the face of it which is pretty basic and with the understanding I don't have the whole story, unless Kumar was actually involved in illegal activity while using the devices as part of it, what has he done wrong?

Ms Crossling says some social media platforms will report suspicious activity to authorities, but end-to-end encryption can prevent them from detecting it.

www.abc.net.au

Boy as young as eight targeted by ‘sextortion’, authorities worry it will become harder to investigate

Police warn the online "sextortion" of teens is about to become harder to investigate as social media platforms introduce end-to-end encryption.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
The company that sold the devices was the FBI. He's been charged with racketeering?

Racketeering is a type of organized crime in which the persons set up a coercive, fraudulent, extortionary, or otherwise illegal coordinated scheme or operation (a "racket") to repeatedly or consistently collect a profit.

Via Wiki.
 
BFew said:
Wouldn’t be surprised if he was never heard from again and is given a new identity.
Click to expand...
He already changed his surname to "Valentine" some time up to Sep 2021.

And this 2021 article (relevant parts of below) explains more about the US charges.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies
www.dailytelegraph.com.au www.dailytelegraph.com.au

'Edwin Valentine, Kumar extradition hearing to US over alleged An0m links​

An extradition proceeding heard suburban cleanskin Edwin Valentine - who lives at home with mum and dad - is alleged to be a “significant figure in a ... transnational criminal group”.

September 3, 2021 - 10:06PM'
'...
Edwin Kumar – who has changed his name to Edwin Valentine
...
Kumar has now been in protective custody at Parklea Correctional Centre for two months since his arrest as the United States of America applies for his extradition to face the Federal Court of the Southern District of California.
...
“What the applicant is wanted for is to face prosecution in the Southern District of California on one count of racketeering,” Mr Glover told the court.

“The central allegation is he was a member of the transnational criminal group known as An0m – he’s alleged to have been a significant figure in a prominent, sophisticated, well-resourced transnational criminal group.”
...
The court heard the FBI will allege Kumar set up the devices used by the syndicate
...
“The link to the United States appears to be (referenced in the indictment) – that Mr Kumar allegedly set up An0m devices for end users who exported illicit narcotics from the United States, and the Southern District of California,” Mr Brady told Magistrate Hugh Donnelly.

“(It’s alleged) he supplied these devices to people and that those people then committed an offence against the United States – there’s nothing linking him to that other than supplying the devices.”
...
Due to his status as a prisoner in need of protection, Mr Brady said Kumar was only permitted to leave his cell and go outside for 30 minutes a day – and that he has spent approximately 79 of his 81 days in custody to date completely inside.
...
The court heard Kumar’s only criminal history involves two convictions for driving while disqualified in 2012 and 2017.'
 

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