I'm gonna do it....

[worthogs]

should have sacked byrnes,lonergan,d johnson and tenace and drafted kids before QLD come into group.Could have then made room for a.lovett...

they were all still contracted (except TL) for this year, we would have had 4 spots with late draft picks and still no cash for Lovett as their payout would be recorded in this year anyway.
THey tried to move tenace no one wanted him.

 

[Ninty]

Byrnes wasn't contracted, he asked to be traded but no one wanted him so he ended up getting a 2 year deal. Why not give him another 5 I say.

Tenace has this year still.

 

[Cattery]

The major difference for me is that Varcoe is what, 20 or 21 years old, and showing signs of improvement and capable of plenty more. ..............

For this reason, I think we will see some of both of them playing in 2009 but I'd like to see Varcoe given preference where possible to give him the chance to improve and become the player he is capable of being and the player we want to see successful in that role.

Can see merit in that argument if it was a side in rebuilding mode, but with the Cats [ hopefully ] aiming at another crack at a flag, if it comes down to a choice between two similar players surely you go with the one who's displaying the better form, and on the evidence of the NAB Cup matches to date that's clearly Byrnes.

Not so sure about the "signs of improvement" with Varcoe either, afraid I haven't seen anything to indicate he's stepped it up a level.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

I do not think that anyone can dispute the fact that Shannon has some serious skill problems. He cannot turn to his non-prefered side or kick on it. In facy his favoured foot is below par when kicking for goal. These are skills that I would expect under 16 kids of today to have developed.

But I think that it is also hard to dispute (although I wait with baited breath) that Shannon has the ability to find tha ball and get into the game than the likes of Travis.
Travis seems to me to be a bit of a sheepdog waiting for the ball to come out of a contest or pack. This is why I think that he will never be a centre player. Maybe on the wing where he can play wide of his opponent.

Shannon is far more likely to attack the ball than wait for it to come to him. I cannot honestly accuse Shannon of a lack of courage or committment to the ball. He has that in stores. Shannons problems are skills that are fundamental to the game of football. I have asked the question: Why have these skills not improved over the past summers? Surely we have skills coaches who see and work on the deficiencies?

Exactly...Shannon has a good attack on the ball, understands when do go in and when to hang back and fits reasonably well within his role. Nobody is saying that he has super skills, but from the evidence i have seen so far this seems to have improved somewhat in the pre-season (although admittedly this has to be witnessed in the main draw), but give him a break - so he turned the ball over once on the wing as was pointed out, probably due to happen if you get the ball 22 times! I seem to even remember Jnr coughing up the ball a few times with poor kicks and line breaking efforts that went wrong (ok, i will wash my mouth out with soap now and never mention that again!!).

All i am trying to do is pay the man a compliment as it seems he has stepped up a little from the previous two years and is looking a lot more like the type of fast little utilty that would work well within our structure. I say he deserves a run...his logical competition Varcoe, Djukerra, Hogan and Tenace have not displayed the same form. I was especially dissapointed with Varcoe after hearing how he has stepped up in the all stars game - he just seemed disenterested on the weekend, i hope this improves because as has been pointed out he has a lot bigger upside than byrnes, but again this has to be realised and he has had a number of opportunities.

 

[Tay29]

He will never go up a level until he learns how to kick, and he still makes ridiculous errors than only he (and maybe Kane) can make - such as taking a bounce only to have the ball shoot through his hands into a waiting Carlton players lap, plus his decision making is appalling at times.

But I will give him credit, he was pretty handy last night.

That's a little harsh on the lad. The last time I remember a bounce that went horribly wrong like that for the Cats was 2007 GF. Dasher even touched the ball to the ground and fumbled it. Cost Geelong a goal in the 2nd quarter(I think).

For what it's worth Byrnes played better on Saturday night. This argument between Byrnes and Varcoe is a merry-go-round. Despite his disposal deficiencies, Brynes gets plenty of the ball. Varcoe seems to regularly struggle to get more than 15 possessions a game. From his 34 senior gigs, he's only managed it 4 times. That would be ok if he snared a couple a goals a game from his limited opportunities but he doesn't.

I have been bewildered by the Varcoe supporters for some time. He's shown he's got flashy skills but he hasn't translated that into consistent and meaningful contributions. He's pretty much a passenger most weeks bobbing up here and there. Trav does have time on his side as he turns 21 in a couple of months and is 4 years younger than Byrnes. I hope that he's able to get into the game more consistently in the coming years but for my mind, he hasn't done enough to convince me his ouput is better than Byrnes.

 

[catempire]

Can see merit in that argument if it was a side in rebuilding mode, but with the Cats [ hopefully ] aiming at another crack at a flag, if it comes down to a choice between two similar players surely you go with the one who's displaying the better form, and on the evidence of the NAB Cup matches to date that's clearly Byrnes.

Not so sure about the "signs of improvement" with Varcoe either, afraid I haven't seen anything to indicate he's stepped it up a level.

You must have missed the opening paragraph of my post. I agree, you pick the player that's playing best, but I don't think there's much between them. In fact, it seems to change from game to game almost, such is the inconsistency of both players. So I just think in that context, we are better served playing the player with more upside.

Varcoe is copping a beating on this board but there's no doubt that he is improving - despite up and down games - and people better get used to seeing a lot of him in 2009 because I know of a fact that the coaches are very happy with the way he is progressing.

 

[ripitup27]

I've always liked Byrnes, always felt comfortable with him in the forward line and I don't know why. Certainly more comfortable than when Varcoe is around.

I'm going to bite the bullet too and pay Tenace a compliment. He looked pretty good the other night and didn't seem to panic with his disposal as much. Good on him.

Still don't think there's space for either of them to be playing.

If Shannon could kick straight maybe, he's an okay forward but he should never play midfield.

Interesting fact, for players that have had more than 50 shots on goal in their careers, Shannon Byrnes is 5% more inaccurate than the next most inaccurate player in the league. Byrnes kicks at 36%, Nathan Van Berlo is at 41%.
The best in the league is Mitch Morton at 71% with Matt Campbell and Cameron Ling not far behind.

 

[winty]

Shannon is far more likely to attack the ball than wait for it to come to him. I cannot honestly accuse Shannon of a lack of courage or committment to the ball. He has that in stores. Shannons problems are skills that are fundamental to the game of football. I have asked the question: Why have these skills not improved over the past summers? Surely we have skills coaches who see and work on the deficiencies?

Makes you wonder how they can completely overhaul Tomahawk's running style over one summer, yet no-one's even attempted to work on Shannon's kicking style over the last 6 years.

 

[Cattery]

You must have missed the opening paragraph of my post. I agree, you pick the player that's playing best, but I don't think there's much between them. In fact, it seems to change from game to game almost, such is the inconsistency of both players. So I just think in that context, we are better served playing the player with more upside.

Nope, didn't miss the opening paragraph, just don't agree with it that's all.

At the moment Byrnes is a considerable way ahead of Varcoe IMO, plus I don't agree that he [ Byrnes ] is inconsistent, you pretty much know exactly what you're getting from him week in week out.

Varcoe is copping a beating on this board but there's no doubt that he is improving - despite up and down games - and people better get used to seeing a lot of him in 2009 because I know of a fact that the coaches are very happy with the way he is progressing.

"No doubt" that he's improving, well as I said I don't see any evidence to support that statement, quite the opposite to be honest, since the early part of 07 he's gone backwards at the rate of knots.

Don't think he's "copping a beating" either, most observations about him have been pretty fair, as well as spot on as far as I can see.

The coaches may be happy with his progress, and as you say we probably will see him playing a fair bit of senior footy this year, doesn't mean he deserves to be there though, and on current form he doesn't, think we're to good a side to play someone just on "potential", and even that's starting to wear a bit thin now.

On the evidence of the NAB Cup games to date even Tenace deserves a game ahead of him

 

[eliiiiza]

Byrnes' game has improved but even I wouldn't say that he is our top 22 (though he is close, for now). He had a good patch in the first quarter that had us all questioning what the hell was going on, but yeah... That botched bounce was typical Byrnes.

Looks a lot fitter though, and I reckon he's a better field kick now than he was last year. Good to see him utilise his speed a number of times.

Byrnes wasn't contracted, he asked to be traded but no one wanted him so he ended up getting a 2 year deal. Why not give him another 5 I say.

Tenace has this year still.

Is that a hint of bitterness I detect there?

 

[Sttew]

Does this mean the "malign" attention now turns to Lonergan?

 

[darren forssman]

I've always liked Byrnes, always felt comfortable with him in the forward line and I don't know why.

you're comfortable with him in the forward line but then go on to say that his kicking for goal is the worst in the league?

as well as the botched bounce there was the kick for goal on the run when maybe the guy with the worst conversion in the afl should have handpassed to kelly

 

[ripitup27]

you're comfortable with him in the forward line but then go on to say that his kicking for goal is the worst in the league?

as well as the botched bounce there was the kick for goal on the run when maybe the guy with the worst conversion in the afl should have handpassed to kelly

I do. I feel comfortable now, imagine if he could kick straight, I'd feel positively buoyant.

I'm not saying I want him in the 22, just don't mind when he does play forward because he offers something.

 

[catempire]

Cattery, (sorry a bit hard to quote a long post from the iPhone), we clearly have a disconnect between the views of the relative contributions of the players as seen by me (and the coaches for that matter) and you and other more extreme views expressed here and elsewhere such as describing Varcoe as "pathetic", "digraceful" and other unwarranted slurs. Hence the "copping a beating" comment.

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone be played on potential.

The only area Byrnes is only ahead of Varcoe is in finding the ball (although that gap is closing and certainly not "considerable"). In terms of basic skills, decision making and goal kicking, Varcoe is indeed "considerably" ahead of Byrnes.

As for the suggestion that Varcoe is going backwards at "at a rate of knots", I'm sorry but that is probably the most inaccurate statement I've read on Bigfooty in years! Where on earth do you get that idea from and on what do you base that view? On any objective view - starting with the stats - he is improving and on my observations, he is finding more of the ball, spending more time in the midfield, using his pace more offensively, and looking more comfortable. I just can't agree with your sentiment here.

I think Varcoe has a very long way to go as a player, I acknowledge that, but the criticism aimed him lately seems wide of the mark.

 

[hamG]

In many other teams Shannon's dysfunctional goal kicking would cost them games - with all the comfortable and dominant victories we have had in the last 2 years the impact of his complete ineptness at finishing has been masked.

Although hats off - he does everything he possibly can to get a game and he might deserve a shot above some other guys, its just everything he is capable of is often just not enough.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Cattery, (sorry a bit hard to quote a long post from the iPhone), we clearly have a disconnect between the views of the relative contributions of the players as seen by me (and the coaches for that matter) and you and other more extreme views expressed here and elsewhere such as describing Varcoe as "pathetic", "digraceful" and other unwarranted slurs. Hence the "copping a beating" comment.

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone be played on potential.

The only area Byrnes is only ahead of Varcoe is in finding the ball (although that gap is closing and certainly not "considerable"). In terms of basic skills, decision making and goal kicking, Varcoe is indeed "considerably" ahead of Byrnes.

As for the suggestion that Varcoe is going backwards at "at a rate of knots", I'm sorry but that is probably the most inaccurate statement I've read on Bigfooty in years! Where on earth do you get that idea from and on what do you base that view? On any objective view - starting with the stats - he is improving and on my observations, he is finding more of the ball, spending more time in the midfield, using his pace more offensively, and looking more comfortable. I just can't agree with your sentiment here.

I think Varcoe has a very long way to go as a player, I acknowledge that, but the criticism aimed him lately seems wide of the mark.

Varcoe is not being described as a pathetic player - but he does have to lift his intensity and his ability to become involved in the player. After 30 odd games he has not delivered anywhere near what he should be capable of.

There is no doubt that Byrnes is a woeful finisher, but i don't think that is his role within the side. To me, he is a utility that can float between forward and midfield creating opportunity with his run and defensive pressure. He has become much more composed with the ball (bar goal kicking - although in truth he has only really had a couple of shots of late!!) and he just seems to fit a lot bettter within our current structure. No one is bagging out any other players, i love Varcoe and wish he would solidify himself in the 22, but the reality is he hasn't and on the basis of his current performances, Byrnes is far ahead. I think it is incorrect to state that Varcoe has better decision making skills, because he simply doesn't get the ball enough in tight encounters or within our set plays to test him out - Byrnes has the ability to read the play a lot better and position himself in an area that better suits the general play (both offensively and defensively).

For mind, Byrnes still needs to improve disposal and add a goal prowess and Varcoe needs to read the game better, become more involved and use the pace that he has to better effect (would love to see him break a few lines). At the moment i would pick Byrnes in my 22.

 

[randyzany]

If only we could combine Shannon's effort and ball finding ability and Varcoe's silky skills into one player.

 

[krisholio14]

If only we could combine Shannon's effort and ball finding ability and Varcoe's silky skills into one player.

Hmm, maybe we could get the club surgeon a job similar to Dr Frankenstein?

 

[haywood jablome]

To me, he is a utility that can float between forward and midfield creating opposition teams opportunity with his turnovers and lack of awareness.

Well said, completely agree.

 

[Cattery]

Cattery, (sorry a bit hard to quote a long post from the iPhone), we clearly have a disconnect between the views of the relative contributions of the players as seen by me (and the coaches for that matter) and you and other more extreme views expressed here and elsewhere such as describing Varcoe as "pathetic", "digraceful" and other unwarranted slurs. Hence the "copping a beating" comment.

No worries, I can understand you.
My mistake there, thought you were referring to this particular thread, which in the main has been pretty fair, but you're right, he has copped a fair bit of crap at times, which is just par for the course with some supporters unfortunately.

The only area Byrnes is only ahead of Varcoe is in finding the ball (although that gap is closing and certainly not "considerable"). In terms of basic skills, decision making and goal kicking, Varcoe is indeed "considerably" ahead of Byrnes.

Agree he has better skills, but it doesn't help much if he can't get his hands on the leather though, and going on the three NAB Cup games so far Byrnes is clearly ahead of him form wise IMO.

As for the suggestion that Varcoe is going backwards at "at a rate of knots", I'm sorry but that is probably the most inaccurate statement I've read on Bigfooty in years!

Heck you haven't read many posts on here then.

Where on earth do you get that idea from and on what do you base that view? On any objective view - starting with the stats - he is improving and on my observations, he is finding more of the ball, spending more time in the midfield, using his pace more offensively, and looking more comfortable. I just can't agree with your sentiment here.

You do realise I was comparing him on his early 07 form and his form subsequently, and going on that criteria I stand by what I said.

In that period [ 07 ] his defensive efforts were excellent, he led the competition for tackles inside fifty, often causing a turnover that resulted in a shot on goal, he was personally averaging one goal a match, plus he had a number of assists as well.

At that stage he looked like he could develop into something special, but his form tapered off [ not unusual for a young player ] to the point where he was dropped, and since that time, except on a few very rare occasions he's never come close to replicating the form, or consistency, he displayed then; in other words, instead of showing gradual improvement from the time he first burst on the scene he's done precisely the opposite, and that's the point I was making with the statement about him going backwards.

I think Varcoe has a very long way to go as a player, I acknowledge that, but the criticism aimed him lately seems wide of the mark.

Agree with you there, and as I've stated before I hope he makes me eat my words and turns out as good as some think he will, but I have strong reservations.

A small percentage of the criticism is over the top I agree, but that's something we just have to live with I guess, heck just ask the little bloke in the number seventeen guernsey about unfair criticism.

 

[themuddy#3]

Byrnes
Varcoe

Neither in the 22... Anyone 'still' have Varcoe in their best 22?? Do you need more convincing?

Varcoe
Byrnes
Gamble

 

[Ninty]

I saw a kid with 17 on at the game on Saturday, and then another 2 girls with 17... Poor things.

Is that a hint of bitterness I detect there?

You know I love him. Just if he could kick straight I'd actually like him. >_>.

 

[Ronnie BurnsVictim]

With the beard, he really does look like one of the 7 dwarves.

looks like Doc, plays like Dopey



i'm not sure why everyone is comparing Byrnes, Varcoe and all the other kiddies because i wouldn't think any of them are in our best 22. Hell, due to our depth, poor old Wojak isn't either but i would definately pick him before all the others.

We don't need more midfielder, we were setting all sorts of records with the high numbers we were getting last year. The Catters play a high risk, high possession game and Shan doesn't have the skills to execute it.

We need blokes who can finish off all that good work, by taking a grab up forward and kick goals, which is why i think Gamble has to get a go, above all the others mentioned.

 

[eliiiiza]

I saw a kid with 17 on at the game on Saturday, and then another 2 girls with 17... Poor things.

You know I love him. Just if he could kick straight I'd actually like him. >_>.

Haha am I one of them?

Yeah, nah...

 

[Ninty]

Yes, lol.